Someone I know died of a heart attack yesterday at 42. He’s the third person we’ve known in his early 40s to pass away in the last six months. Another closer friend has been battling colon cancer for most of the last year (not sure yet who’s winning). Not unexpectedly, I’ve been in a lot of conversations recently that revolved around the “life is short” and “you only live once” themes.
I had another conversation like that today with someone upset about the latest death. He said he wanted to talk to me because he knew I lived by the “life is short” motto. I said yes. He said he knew I valued time doing what I enjoyed, time with family, time having fun regardless of what other people thought. Yes. Yes. Yes. Then he said that he’d just booked a vacation for next month even though he doesn’t have the money (his business is failing), and he knew I’d understand. No! I asked why he couldn’t just take time off and spend the time with his family. He said “c’mon, I want ‘real’ memories and hanging out at the house isn’t it.” I suggested some things he could do at home, but he started to get mad (“I thought *you* would understand”) and we were both raw from the unexpected death, so I let it go.
How are you supposed to handle conversations like that? I don’t understand why people think they aren’t *living* if they aren’t spending money. But you end up in these conversations where if you say you don’t agree, you sound like you’re saying you don’t value time with family. It’s that last leap to spending money—especially spending money you don’t have—that baffles me. But I’m never sure how to explain the difference to people (or if I should even try). And when you say you’re enjoying life more this way, they honestly don’t believe you. I agree that life is short, but you don't have to spend lots of money to make it worthwhile.
This isn’t a rant. I’m just...sad. He could have retired 10 years ago (he was a hedge fund manager and I know his last bonus was $750K). He could have spent the time with his family. Maybe he could have avoided the heart attack. I don’t get it. And now I’ll be in conversations this week where people praise him for being a good provider and leaving his family set for life—like giving up your life for money is noble. I wonder if that’s what he would think now.
The "life is too short" argument
Everyone has different values and does their best to maximize their own fitness given their genetics and environment. Who are you to define how they should be spending their time and money?
Second, people only seem to be rational. They do plenty of things that don't maximize their own fitness.
Lots of people rationalize spending money right now because life is short and lots of people give up work to enjoy simpler ways because life is short. Everything can be rationalized by the same reasons. In reality, people are just serving out the orders given to them by their genes as influenced by their environment. If you look at it that way, you can't really put blame on a person - they really are honestly just doing their best.
Live and let live.
Second, people only seem to be rational. They do plenty of things that don't maximize their own fitness.
Lots of people rationalize spending money right now because life is short and lots of people give up work to enjoy simpler ways because life is short. Everything can be rationalized by the same reasons. In reality, people are just serving out the orders given to them by their genes as influenced by their environment. If you look at it that way, you can't really put blame on a person - they really are honestly just doing their best.
Live and let live.
-
George the original one
- Posts: 5406
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
- Location: Wettest corner of Orygun
That's a no-win conversation, but I think you did the best you could, and at least you didn't help him justify his spending. It is impossible(even for those who don't die young)to perfectly time your saving/spending to end up with a perfect balance of $0 on your death day.
In the end, I (and most others on this board) will prefer to err on the conservative side and end up with some extra to pass on to loved ones or charities. Others may prefer to rack up as much debt as possible, live large on credit, and "stick it to the man," but if they live just a little too long, they'll have to suffer through the debt collections and the snowballing debt that will make the rest of living miserable. I don't think there is any way to change a mindset like that through conversation, and it will only make them resentful, but I am personally unable to be supportive of that attitude, especially given the credit bubble and recession. Maybe just give them "that look" and change the subject...
I am also very sorry for your loss.
In the end, I (and most others on this board) will prefer to err on the conservative side and end up with some extra to pass on to loved ones or charities. Others may prefer to rack up as much debt as possible, live large on credit, and "stick it to the man," but if they live just a little too long, they'll have to suffer through the debt collections and the snowballing debt that will make the rest of living miserable. I don't think there is any way to change a mindset like that through conversation, and it will only make them resentful, but I am personally unable to be supportive of that attitude, especially given the credit bubble and recession. Maybe just give them "that look" and change the subject...
I am also very sorry for your loss.
Day-in and day-out we are bombarded with praise for those who are literally killing themselves to earn money for their family.... money to satisfy the insatiable wants of the family, NOT to take care of their elemental needs. In fact, it's perfectly acceptable to ignore elemental needs in exchange for the satisfaction of more "wants".
It is only natural that the reaction to this broken logic would be to soothe the pain with even more spending. Pavlov's dogs can't control their drooling when the bell gets rung.
Life is too short to spend your energy trying to teach the conditioned dog not to drool.
It is only natural that the reaction to this broken logic would be to soothe the pain with even more spending. Pavlov's dogs can't control their drooling when the bell gets rung.
Life is too short to spend your energy trying to teach the conditioned dog not to drool.
Sorry about your loss. I think you did the best anyone could hope for with that conversation. The "life is short" saying is really true. Unfortunately, most people think it means to live extravagantly, but it really means to identify what is important in your life and focus on it. A simple concept that is immensely complicated. Take care and don't lose sleep over that conversation.
-
aussierogue
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:02 pm
Nice post Jenny Penny...Yes skewed logic.
From a practical level his logic wont work - here is why...
His business is going under....and yet he whacks more on the credit card so that he and his family are going to have 'real memories'....
Unfortunately the likely memories are going to be his children watching a father who cannot enjoy his expensive holidays due to stress about work and money. As they try and angage eachother over dinner conversation - they will notice how he often looks off into the distance with a vague look....as he downs another scotch do drown out the worry...
His lasting memories of this holiday could very well be the sadness of that last holiday before he finally declares bankruptsy, or needs to sell his business or house so that he can clear some debts...
Pretty hard to enjoy ones self when lifes materialistic issues begin to spiral out of control.
People find escapism in many forms but by definition its almost always temporary. When we find pleasure in simple things the idea of sacrificing a lot to travel to a tropical island becomes less attractive.
Oh and btw - i reckjon i was on a similar path to some of the guys who dies early. I am 41 now and although a very good provider i was depressed and my family has a history of heart disease. The temptations of high income, high status and high material living are hard to reject or keep in check. But it can be done.
From a practical level his logic wont work - here is why...
His business is going under....and yet he whacks more on the credit card so that he and his family are going to have 'real memories'....
Unfortunately the likely memories are going to be his children watching a father who cannot enjoy his expensive holidays due to stress about work and money. As they try and angage eachother over dinner conversation - they will notice how he often looks off into the distance with a vague look....as he downs another scotch do drown out the worry...
His lasting memories of this holiday could very well be the sadness of that last holiday before he finally declares bankruptsy, or needs to sell his business or house so that he can clear some debts...
Pretty hard to enjoy ones self when lifes materialistic issues begin to spiral out of control.
People find escapism in many forms but by definition its almost always temporary. When we find pleasure in simple things the idea of sacrificing a lot to travel to a tropical island becomes less attractive.
Oh and btw - i reckjon i was on a similar path to some of the guys who dies early. I am 41 now and although a very good provider i was depressed and my family has a history of heart disease. The temptations of high income, high status and high material living are hard to reject or keep in check. But it can be done.
-
dot_com_vet
- Posts: 603
- Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:07 am
-
jacob
- Site Admin
- Posts: 16001
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
- Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
- Contact:
I'll take the contrarian position and say that life is really long!
Consider the things that are possible to do in 5 years:
--- Get married, have a couple of kids and get divorced again.
--- Get a bachelors degree.
--- Visit every state in the US
--- Read 100 books.
--- Gain mastery of almost any topic desired.
--- Write a book.
--- Do something physically impressive, like climb a mountain.
--- Lose 100 pounds.
--- Gain 100 pounds.
This list can be much longer, but you get the point ...
Even with a life span of 40 years, it's still possible do 5 or 6 of these. That's a lot because most people will at most do 1 or 2.
I think the real lament is not that life is short but that life has too few opportunities. And what's sad is that it seems that many subconsciously arrange their lives to have as few opportunities as possible either by 1) simply saying no, 2) being too narrow-visioned/unconnected to not see them when they're there, or 3) worst, tie oneself by obligations thus forcing the no.
Consider the things that are possible to do in 5 years:
--- Get married, have a couple of kids and get divorced again.
--- Get a bachelors degree.
--- Visit every state in the US
--- Read 100 books.
--- Gain mastery of almost any topic desired.
--- Write a book.
--- Do something physically impressive, like climb a mountain.
--- Lose 100 pounds.
--- Gain 100 pounds.
This list can be much longer, but you get the point ...
Even with a life span of 40 years, it's still possible do 5 or 6 of these. That's a lot because most people will at most do 1 or 2.
I think the real lament is not that life is short but that life has too few opportunities. And what's sad is that it seems that many subconsciously arrange their lives to have as few opportunities as possible either by 1) simply saying no, 2) being too narrow-visioned/unconnected to not see them when they're there, or 3) worst, tie oneself by obligations thus forcing the no.
-
aussierogue
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:02 pm
-
secretwealth
- Posts: 1948
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:31 am
-
jacob
- Site Admin
- Posts: 16001
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
- Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
- Contact:
@aussierogue - In the sense of subjective time, yes. For example, when the mind if really engaged and received a lot of input and does a lot of processing, 1 week of clock time can feel like 1 month subjectively ("Has it really only been one week? It feels like I've been here for months.").
Conversely, being unengaged and just "doing time" and one wonders "It's July already? It feels like the year just started. What the #@$@ did I actually do the past year? Apparently nothing."
I think the latter state is common. It would explain all those "the kids grow up so fast"-comments from adults vs the time-sense of the kids themselves.
---
I prefer to think in terms of "experienced" vs "inexperienced" rather than "x number of experiences". The latter sounds so consumerist. "Experienced" suggests that some learning/brain-transformation/mental growth took place. I think that "experienced" is a better measure for how much one has lived compared to how much wall-clock time one has logged.
TL;DR: The amount of living is measured by the length of one's resume---the one that includes everything, friendships, good deeds, stories, jobs, successes, failures---rather than by subtracting birth year from death year.
Conversely, being unengaged and just "doing time" and one wonders "It's July already? It feels like the year just started. What the #@$@ did I actually do the past year? Apparently nothing."
I think the latter state is common. It would explain all those "the kids grow up so fast"-comments from adults vs the time-sense of the kids themselves.
---
I prefer to think in terms of "experienced" vs "inexperienced" rather than "x number of experiences". The latter sounds so consumerist. "Experienced" suggests that some learning/brain-transformation/mental growth took place. I think that "experienced" is a better measure for how much one has lived compared to how much wall-clock time one has logged.
TL;DR: The amount of living is measured by the length of one's resume---the one that includes everything, friendships, good deeds, stories, jobs, successes, failures---rather than by subtracting birth year from death year.
-
jennypenny
- Posts: 6858
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
It's not the years, it's the miles...
Michio Kaku on Time as it relates to human's perception of time.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 3158952711
@all-thanks for the kind words
Michio Kaku on Time as it relates to human's perception of time.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 3158952711
@all-thanks for the kind words
-
aussierogue
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:02 pm
@jacob
Ok - sure i understand. From my perspective i still find the idea of regarding time in terms 'results' still flawed - no matter what kind of results we are looking at. I realise this is part of the human condition but the great thinkers I like to read just about always consider 'time' to be fictional. "who cares what time it is.....the time is NOW....it can only be NOW.....The future is merely NOW in the future...
So the logic then follows - what results am i after (in terms of experiences' right NOW. Currently im writing a piece for a blog called ERE on my computer. I feel fairly engaged, happy im not working for the man, happy i am wearing jeans, took my children to school and will probably go for a run soon. I may even have a bowel moevement in the next hour or so...(too much information??)
So maybe ones perception of how long or short their lives are are based on how well they cope / experience the current and immediate NOW...Being engaged in even a mundane task can maike time fly....
Does any of this make any sense....i am just rambling...might go for a run (dont wanna get fat and look bad in the future).
Ok - sure i understand. From my perspective i still find the idea of regarding time in terms 'results' still flawed - no matter what kind of results we are looking at. I realise this is part of the human condition but the great thinkers I like to read just about always consider 'time' to be fictional. "who cares what time it is.....the time is NOW....it can only be NOW.....The future is merely NOW in the future...
So the logic then follows - what results am i after (in terms of experiences' right NOW. Currently im writing a piece for a blog called ERE on my computer. I feel fairly engaged, happy im not working for the man, happy i am wearing jeans, took my children to school and will probably go for a run soon. I may even have a bowel moevement in the next hour or so...(too much information??)
So maybe ones perception of how long or short their lives are are based on how well they cope / experience the current and immediate NOW...Being engaged in even a mundane task can maike time fly....
Does any of this make any sense....i am just rambling...might go for a run (dont wanna get fat and look bad in the future).
-
jacob
- Site Admin
- Posts: 16001
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
- Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
- Contact:
@aussierogue - Yes, some sense.
Maybe accumulating "impressions" is a better description than collecting experiences or been-there-done-that shirts.
One thing I remember from my own childhood is how long it seemed. I also remember how the most interesting/engaging periods of my life seemed to subjectively last a long time.
Conversely, in the boring periods, the years flew by.
The aim would be to fill up one's entire chronological life with engaging periods.
Maybe accumulating "impressions" is a better description than collecting experiences or been-there-done-that shirts.
One thing I remember from my own childhood is how long it seemed. I also remember how the most interesting/engaging periods of my life seemed to subjectively last a long time.
Conversely, in the boring periods, the years flew by.
The aim would be to fill up one's entire chronological life with engaging periods.
-
aussierogue
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:02 pm
My reply to "Live like this is your last day. It could be." is usually "Yes, but if you have bad luck, it might not and then you have to live with the results of the shit you did."
Besides, the entire "life is short" thing is by now usually just a sales pitch for some "super experience". I also fail to see how idiocy equals happiness (usually the gist of these YOLO!!!!11one!!! arguments - I once read that YOLO is carpe diem for stupid people). I rather stick to the idea that it's the opposite.
And if life is short, do you really want to spend most of it in a cubicle putting cover sheets on TPS reports?
There's a nice calculation done in "Work less, play more" by Steven Catlin: The average person in the US gets 2 weeks of vacation a year. That's 2/52 weeks or under 4% of their life. The other 96% is spent in wage-slavery.
Even if you get six weeks (like in Germany), that's 6/52 or under 12% of your life.
That's one of the reasons I chose to scale down to an 80% contract. In Germany, you pretty much triple that number to 17/52, or 32% of your life. So at least I have that.
The benefit (relatively speaking) is much higher in the US.
And I still save over 60% of my money.
But if your brain is soaked in "the good life is the life where you spend lots of money", it's a hard habit to break. Other options don't compute and don't pass your reality filter.
Besides, the entire "life is short" thing is by now usually just a sales pitch for some "super experience". I also fail to see how idiocy equals happiness (usually the gist of these YOLO!!!!11one!!! arguments - I once read that YOLO is carpe diem for stupid people). I rather stick to the idea that it's the opposite.
And if life is short, do you really want to spend most of it in a cubicle putting cover sheets on TPS reports?
There's a nice calculation done in "Work less, play more" by Steven Catlin: The average person in the US gets 2 weeks of vacation a year. That's 2/52 weeks or under 4% of their life. The other 96% is spent in wage-slavery.
Even if you get six weeks (like in Germany), that's 6/52 or under 12% of your life.
That's one of the reasons I chose to scale down to an 80% contract. In Germany, you pretty much triple that number to 17/52, or 32% of your life. So at least I have that.
The benefit (relatively speaking) is much higher in the US.
And I still save over 60% of my money.
But if your brain is soaked in "the good life is the life where you spend lots of money", it's a hard habit to break. Other options don't compute and don't pass your reality filter.