Hi
I'm wondering whether I should apply to uni to do a law degree or not. I'm in Australia. The degree would cost about thirty grand (plus for books etc) if I get a govt-supported spot. I'd do a it part-time while I work full-time over 5+ years (I have 10 years to finish it). I plan to "retire" by about 40, 41. I am wondering whether it is worth the money/time. I could see myself working for legal aid or something when I'm not working full-time, and/or doing a masters, trying to get articles published, maybe a phd if I get bored enough.
Law degree?
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aussierogue
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:02 pm
The risk here is you never complete you law degree.
Very very hard to do law part time. Life happens and 10 years of life is a long time.
IMo i would do a vocational test and see what suits your personality. A career should be based more than just perceived ability to make money. If the test says you are suited to law then go for it.
If you wanna do law because of the 'status' then i think life will get in the way...
Plenty of other vocations pay better than law and require less study.
Very very hard to do law part time. Life happens and 10 years of life is a long time.
IMo i would do a vocational test and see what suits your personality. A career should be based more than just perceived ability to make money. If the test says you are suited to law then go for it.
If you wanna do law because of the 'status' then i think life will get in the way...
Plenty of other vocations pay better than law and require less study.
Speaking as someone who initially went to law school here in the U.S. with no real ambition to practice law, just a great deal of curiosity about the subject; our system is designed for practioners. It wasn't particularly philosophical or provocative of deep thought.
The tuition cost in Oz is way more reasonable than here in the States. Today, getting the three-year J.D. can leave the average student with more than $150,000 in non-dischargeable debt. And the demand for lawyers is plummeting; so that well over half of the graduates will probably never practice in a meaningful way. If you want to see the travesty that U.S. law school has become, check out this blog by a law professor:
http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/
My advice to anyone considering studying law in America: DON'T DO IT. The system is broken and needs massive reform.
@gawping
I don't know how the Australian law school process compares with ours. But in any case, it is not a wise choice to explore the law by plunging in headlessly. The advice @chenda shares is a good suggestion. You might also try to talk to a few practicing lawyers about how they view the profession and the course of studies. If you don't know a lawyer well enough, contact the local bar association and ask if they can recommend someone.
The tuition cost in Oz is way more reasonable than here in the States. Today, getting the three-year J.D. can leave the average student with more than $150,000 in non-dischargeable debt. And the demand for lawyers is plummeting; so that well over half of the graduates will probably never practice in a meaningful way. If you want to see the travesty that U.S. law school has become, check out this blog by a law professor:
http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/
My advice to anyone considering studying law in America: DON'T DO IT. The system is broken and needs massive reform.
@gawping
I don't know how the Australian law school process compares with ours. But in any case, it is not a wise choice to explore the law by plunging in headlessly. The advice @chenda shares is a good suggestion. You might also try to talk to a few practicing lawyers about how they view the profession and the course of studies. If you don't know a lawyer well enough, contact the local bar association and ask if they can recommend someone.
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LiquidSapphire
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:40 pm
Hey Maus -
Just curious - what would you suggest someone who is interested in legal "stuff" do instead? I am thinking like, legal secretary, court clerk, paralegal? I almost did the law school thing but got the warning in time, thankfully... but I do enjoy researching case law, writing, presenting a case to a judge and winning (take that stupid traffic ticket!) What are some other ways to get into the enjoyable parts of law work without law school?
Just curious - what would you suggest someone who is interested in legal "stuff" do instead? I am thinking like, legal secretary, court clerk, paralegal? I almost did the law school thing but got the warning in time, thankfully... but I do enjoy researching case law, writing, presenting a case to a judge and winning (take that stupid traffic ticket!) What are some other ways to get into the enjoyable parts of law work without law school?
That is hilarious. Sadly, half or more of that is true for most professions.
@Maus
Yeah, I recently read somewhere you shouldn't go to law school unless you are in a 1st or 2nd tier school, as there are just way too many graduates for lower tier graduates to have much of a chance (in the US).
Lots of law schools are now being sued for false advertising concerning placement after graduation (again in the US).
@Maus
Yeah, I recently read somewhere you shouldn't go to law school unless you are in a 1st or 2nd tier school, as there are just way too many graduates for lower tier graduates to have much of a chance (in the US).
Lots of law schools are now being sued for false advertising concerning placement after graduation (again in the US).
I could have written Maus's opening paragraph myself. I just picked up my freshly-printed JD last month and I found that most the students in the room want to talk more about their (probably never-to-materialize) future BMW, corner office and expensive cocktails more than they want to talk about public policy or legal theory. As soon as a professor starts discussing a nuanced issue that ought to be of great interest to anyone interested in the law, but that won't be tested either on the class exam or the bar exam, you can hear the note-taking pens drop and watch over half the class as they divert their attention to checking their email or phone. They're just not interested.
I truly believe that the reason law school gets a reputation as being difficult is because the majority of the people who go have no interest in what they're studying. Of course something's going to be difficult if you hate it. I found my undergrad classes more challenging.
I was able to find some interesting discussion and thinking happening in a few smaller elective classes that people would only sign up for if they were interested in the topic. And I was able to write a couple of law review articles on legal moralism that were enjoyable to work on with professors who seem delighted to find students who want to talk with them about something other than their grade. But it was the exception. Most of the students obsessed more over GPA's than legal theory.
I considered doing a PhD in political science or philosophy or something. But I just wanted to surround myself with like-minded thinkers. I didn't want a career out of it. Plus, when I started I was still working and there aren't many places that will let you do a part-time PhD. And 3 years seemed more manageable than ~7. But my degree was pretty much free, and at that price, it was a good deal.
I still think if a young person just wants to retire early though, they should only think of education as something fun to do and not think of it in terms of monetary payback. Because in almost all scenarious for a hard-working person, you're just better off working 2 or 3 jobs simultaneously for 5 or so years and retiring. I made most of my money in a job that only required a high school diploma and I'm getting ready to declare myself retired before 30 years old.
I truly believe that the reason law school gets a reputation as being difficult is because the majority of the people who go have no interest in what they're studying. Of course something's going to be difficult if you hate it. I found my undergrad classes more challenging.
I was able to find some interesting discussion and thinking happening in a few smaller elective classes that people would only sign up for if they were interested in the topic. And I was able to write a couple of law review articles on legal moralism that were enjoyable to work on with professors who seem delighted to find students who want to talk with them about something other than their grade. But it was the exception. Most of the students obsessed more over GPA's than legal theory.
I considered doing a PhD in political science or philosophy or something. But I just wanted to surround myself with like-minded thinkers. I didn't want a career out of it. Plus, when I started I was still working and there aren't many places that will let you do a part-time PhD. And 3 years seemed more manageable than ~7. But my degree was pretty much free, and at that price, it was a good deal.
I still think if a young person just wants to retire early though, they should only think of education as something fun to do and not think of it in terms of monetary payback. Because in almost all scenarious for a hard-working person, you're just better off working 2 or 3 jobs simultaneously for 5 or so years and retiring. I made most of my money in a job that only required a high school diploma and I'm getting ready to declare myself retired before 30 years old.
I think you should talk to lawyers in Australia who are in positions you would like to do. Pick up the phone and ask them for coffee. Do the research ahead of time in your home country and not just online.
I am a lawyer in Canada. It has worked out really well for me. I own my own firm and work part-time in a social justice area and mostly from home.
All those stories about lawyers and law are stories, some true, some blown up, and only the negative ones seem to get much air time.
I am a lawyer in Canada. It has worked out really well for me. I own my own firm and work part-time in a social justice area and mostly from home.
All those stories about lawyers and law are stories, some true, some blown up, and only the negative ones seem to get much air time.