I made a post previously asking whether taking out a loan for university would be worth it. The overall answer was actually fairly supportive of the idea.
My problem is I simply can't make myself comfortable with the idea of spending money I don't have, especially amounts of money that seem so large to me. I don't want to spend three or four years of my life with the feeling that my net worth is continuously decreasing: it's distressing to me.
So many people I talk to, my parents included, talk like there is no other option outside of going to university. I've got into huge arguments with them over this; they think I'm acting stupidly for even suggesting that university might not be the best choice for me.
There's also the possibility of doing a course somewhere cheaper, but it isn't going to be significantly less expensive and I'm apprehensive about the quality of such institutions. That's probably irrational on my part but it's difficult to shake: the people in my social group are very much the sort of people who insist on going to the best universities in the country, and I have a desire to conform to that standard.
I don't really know what to do with myself. I could go into accountancy training, one of the few professions that accepts non-graduates now, but that seems incredibly dull. I feel as if I have to do something within some sort of structure; I'm bad at creating things for myself to do. During school holidays like this I promise myself I'm going to study, but instead I just spend all day surfing the internet. It both annoys and saddens me that I never really seem to do anything that I'm actually proud of. I seem to have trained myself to be dependent on authority to provide structure and guidance: I lack trust for my own sense of judgement. I have an idea, but I never follow it through because I'm so afraid of potential unintended consequences. My problem with outside-the-box ideas about what I could do is they seem so strange and foreign to me, and I become scared that I will not enjoy them at all and it will just be a waste of time. I feel like that with university a little, but I have prepared myself for it for quite a long time now, so it's familiar to me and I know what to expect.
My primary interests are chemistry, linguistics and computer science. I'd ideally like to pursue a career related to one of those areas, but possibly not until I've got my finances sorted. I've had my heart set on doing a PhD in chemistry for quite a long time now, and I would be disappointed if I never did that.
So ultimately, what I would like from you is some reassurance that my doubts aren't insane, and anything you think I may not have thought of. Often it feels hopeless trying to find solutions to these issues, but I feel like I should question my decisions and my motives behind those decisions instead of simply letting everything roll past me, like everyone else seems to.
What to do with my life?
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mikenotspam
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:05 am
Have you thought of doing something like an electrician? If you were that concerned about finances, you could get paid while you're an apprentice, not much, but a lot more than nothing, and at the end you could be in a good position.
However, the fact that you're interested in computer science and interested in ERE means you should do that, since you can get a very well paying job afterwards, allowing you to handle any debts easily, especially if you take a route toward a less expensive school. Undoubtedly chemistry would also have some career route equally advantageous, I just don't know anything about it.
If you were interested in sculpture or interior design, I'd worry, but with your apparent intellect and "hard" interests, you'll be fine no matter what you choose, imho.
However, the fact that you're interested in computer science and interested in ERE means you should do that, since you can get a very well paying job afterwards, allowing you to handle any debts easily, especially if you take a route toward a less expensive school. Undoubtedly chemistry would also have some career route equally advantageous, I just don't know anything about it.
If you were interested in sculpture or interior design, I'd worry, but with your apparent intellect and "hard" interests, you'll be fine no matter what you choose, imho.
The fact you a questioning the wisdom of getting yourself into vaste amounts of debt shows you have a lot of common sense. The cost of education is getting out of hand, yet the attitude of so many is still ''What do you mean you don't want $50000 worth of debt, are you mad ?!!'' Kind of like a drug peddler selling his wares.
My advice would be to take a year or two out before making any decisions, try working in a few different areas which interest you and then make a decision as to where you would like to go. Apart from anything else, it should enable you to build up a cash pile which should make a university degree financially easier.
My advice would be to take a year or two out before making any decisions, try working in a few different areas which interest you and then make a decision as to where you would like to go. Apart from anything else, it should enable you to build up a cash pile which should make a university degree financially easier.
I am assuming you haven't had any college instruction yet. Based on my experience (U.S. centric) a Bachelor's degree gives you general knowledge of a variety of subject and some concentration in a major you choose. It is also often the minimum bar to enter many professional jobs with some exceptions (many IT professionals only get a 2 year degree or none though advancing into management is more challenging without a degree). In a Master's program you generally learn to do research and to write well. In a PhD program you pick a problem and research the heck out of it and try to actually solve a small part of it so you can land a high paying job in academia or some fancy research outfit. That's been my experience though others may have a different spin on it.
If you haven't already had some college instruction, it is probably too early to think about a Masters and a Ph.D. I would recommend taking the Myers Briggs test to confirm or clarify what you might enjoy doing the most. Academia is changing (slowly) and that is where I happen to work. Some day we'll see targeted a-la-cart offerings of quality instruction but today I would still ~generally~ recommend a Bachelor's degree at a minimum so one can land a job that pays a decent wage where you could build up a base for your financial independence and then decide where you want to go next. Here in the U.S. many parents fret about the cost of education but many only consider either the top 10 or some other major schools. In my opinion a state university or even a 2-year college could be a great and relatively inexpensive starting point. If you are inquisitive and have done well at least in some of your classes, the name of the university won't matter as much.
If you haven't already had some college instruction, it is probably too early to think about a Masters and a Ph.D. I would recommend taking the Myers Briggs test to confirm or clarify what you might enjoy doing the most. Academia is changing (slowly) and that is where I happen to work. Some day we'll see targeted a-la-cart offerings of quality instruction but today I would still ~generally~ recommend a Bachelor's degree at a minimum so one can land a job that pays a decent wage where you could build up a base for your financial independence and then decide where you want to go next. Here in the U.S. many parents fret about the cost of education but many only consider either the top 10 or some other major schools. In my opinion a state university or even a 2-year college could be a great and relatively inexpensive starting point. If you are inquisitive and have done well at least in some of your classes, the name of the university won't matter as much.
Mikenotspam, becoming an electrician has been suggested to me, and it does have a certain appeal. My parents wouldn't approve of their precious son doing something they perceived as lower class, though, so that would result in big arguments with them.
I've already made my application to do chemistry sadly, and it would be difficult to change; I'd have to phone each of the universities I've applied to individually, ask them if they'd allow it, and if not I would have to wait another year to start again with my application. Or I would have to turn down all my offers of places, go into "clearing", and accept a place for a course at a less in-demand university, something which I'm not comfortable doing. Also, I've heard that programmers are dime-a-dozen, whereas chemists are not.
Flyer, I live in the UK. US bachelors degrees are very different to UK ones. There is no liberal arts tradition in the UK: you choose one subject and stick with it for three years. Community colleges, while they exist, are less common, and inhabit the public consciousness a lot less. Thanks for sharing your experience, anyway.
I've already made my application to do chemistry sadly, and it would be difficult to change; I'd have to phone each of the universities I've applied to individually, ask them if they'd allow it, and if not I would have to wait another year to start again with my application. Or I would have to turn down all my offers of places, go into "clearing", and accept a place for a course at a less in-demand university, something which I'm not comfortable doing. Also, I've heard that programmers are dime-a-dozen, whereas chemists are not.
Flyer, I live in the UK. US bachelors degrees are very different to UK ones. There is no liberal arts tradition in the UK: you choose one subject and stick with it for three years. Community colleges, while they exist, are less common, and inhabit the public consciousness a lot less. Thanks for sharing your experience, anyway.
College is not a prerequisite for a happy life. I went briefly and quit because I hated it. And yet, I have a programming job that pays well and my family still speaks to me. If you're looking at racking up a bunch of debt to do something you aren't interested in just because of social pressure, it seems obvious you shouldn't go. However, if you really would be disappointed in yourself by not studying chemistry, then trading several years of your life and accumulating some debt might be worth it. You, not your family or friends, get to decide what to do with your life.
Thanks S, you're right. Fundamentally it's my satisfaction that matters. What I'm trying to do at the moment is sift through all the nonsense I've been fed by those around me and find out what's *really* important to me.
For those interested, my Myer-Briggs type has come out as INTP two out of three times I've taken an online test, though the "T" is pretty marginal. In my subjective opinion I'd say that it's the archetype I'm closest to.
For those interested, my Myer-Briggs type has come out as INTP two out of three times I've taken an online test, though the "T" is pretty marginal. In my subjective opinion I'd say that it's the archetype I'm closest to.
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LiquidSapphire
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:40 pm
Many small parts of your post strike home with me.
Just this week I was thinking to myself, wow, if only I had different mentors/influences, I could have had my life go in a completely different direction.
I recall many instances in my life (late teens) where I had an inkling of what I wanted to do or what I thought was a good idea but, also, realizing I didn't have any life experience, coupled with fear of failure, I listened to a lot of the adults in my life and let that override my budding thoughts. In the past 10 years I have come to realize many of them are just spitting out the mainstream advice, some of which didn't apply to me. They did the best they could, but it wasn't what was best for me. I wish I could take the me from now and time travel back 10 years so that I would give myself completely new/fresh advice I wasn't hearing anywhere else. Doesn't anyone though. Did I do all right following mainstream advice? I did fairly well, by mainstream standards, but I could have done extremely well, had I just had the right influences at the right time.
Mike BOS (author of lackingambition.com and sometimes posts here) I think started out as a utility lineman, and then got his Bachelor's and is now about to finish law school. Sounds like it would be worth a read for you.
It seems like such a contradiction to me that, on the one hand, you are thinking school is not for you, and on the other, you want to get a PhD in Chemistry. These are basically the two extremes of the spectrum. Have you read some of the old posts on this blog? As you're probably aware, Jacob was a PhD in Physics and he became very disillusioned with the whole institution. Also worth a read.
If you're serious about ERE, I probably wouldn't go the PhD route, just because it would delay your earnings by 10 years. You could be retired in 10 years.
Is it possible to work during school? Either work PT to take the edge off the student loans, or maybe work full time, and go to school part time? That would also allow you to do the electrician apprenticeship, while getting your education.
Also, isn't it pretty common in the UK to take a gap year to figure out what you want to do before going to university? I'd encourage you to do that, especially with all of these doubts that you have. In the US they have "Deferred Admission" which means, they let you in, but they will let you defer one year to do XYZ, whatever that is. Maybe you can make a deal with your parents, you will take 1 year to try out your crazy ideas, and if it doesn't work out, you'll go to the university of their choice.
Just this week I was thinking to myself, wow, if only I had different mentors/influences, I could have had my life go in a completely different direction.
I recall many instances in my life (late teens) where I had an inkling of what I wanted to do or what I thought was a good idea but, also, realizing I didn't have any life experience, coupled with fear of failure, I listened to a lot of the adults in my life and let that override my budding thoughts. In the past 10 years I have come to realize many of them are just spitting out the mainstream advice, some of which didn't apply to me. They did the best they could, but it wasn't what was best for me. I wish I could take the me from now and time travel back 10 years so that I would give myself completely new/fresh advice I wasn't hearing anywhere else. Doesn't anyone though. Did I do all right following mainstream advice? I did fairly well, by mainstream standards, but I could have done extremely well, had I just had the right influences at the right time.
Mike BOS (author of lackingambition.com and sometimes posts here) I think started out as a utility lineman, and then got his Bachelor's and is now about to finish law school. Sounds like it would be worth a read for you.
It seems like such a contradiction to me that, on the one hand, you are thinking school is not for you, and on the other, you want to get a PhD in Chemistry. These are basically the two extremes of the spectrum. Have you read some of the old posts on this blog? As you're probably aware, Jacob was a PhD in Physics and he became very disillusioned with the whole institution. Also worth a read.
If you're serious about ERE, I probably wouldn't go the PhD route, just because it would delay your earnings by 10 years. You could be retired in 10 years.
Is it possible to work during school? Either work PT to take the edge off the student loans, or maybe work full time, and go to school part time? That would also allow you to do the electrician apprenticeship, while getting your education.
Also, isn't it pretty common in the UK to take a gap year to figure out what you want to do before going to university? I'd encourage you to do that, especially with all of these doubts that you have. In the US they have "Deferred Admission" which means, they let you in, but they will let you defer one year to do XYZ, whatever that is. Maybe you can make a deal with your parents, you will take 1 year to try out your crazy ideas, and if it doesn't work out, you'll go to the university of their choice.
Have you run the numbers? Project your earnings and loans for different decisions and see how that lines up with your goals, financial and otherwise. Financially, keep in mind that there's a big range in earnings even within each field. In many fields, you can end up with a $30K/yr job or a $100K/yr job, so do some digging for real data. It's tempting to skip college to retire by age 25, but you need to make sure that's possible. Jacob suggests becoming a UPS driver, and mikeBOS was a utility lineman (after undergrad?).
There's more to life than being financially free. You might enjoy having a good career, and chemistry might give you that more than accounting or electrical. I suggest reading through Cal Newport's Study Hacks blog.
http://calnewport.com/blog/about/
There's more to life than being financially free. You might enjoy having a good career, and chemistry might give you that more than accounting or electrical. I suggest reading through Cal Newport's Study Hacks blog.
http://calnewport.com/blog/about/
LiquidSapphire: It's pretty common in the UK to take a gap year, and deferred entry to university is possible. However, I have already "used up" my five applications on courses starting in 2012. I know, it's strange, but in the UK a national organisation called UCAS handles all university applications, and they impose a limit. As a result it's a choice of the universities I've applied to, whether they will let me defer my current application by a year. It's very likely they will just tell me to reapply at start of the next application cycle, which isn't too much of a problem, but does mean I will have to ask my school for another reference.
I don't have any objections to school, really: I enjoy learning and acquiring knowledge and skills. The major disincentive to me is how much it will cost. The problem with working part time is that I want to get the best degree I possibly can, so I will have to treat my education like a full time job. Doing PT work on top of that may take its toll on my health and exam performance.
Anyway, thanks for your response.
teewonk: I don't know what my projected earnings will be, as I don't know what sort of job I'm going to take. I simply don't feel I can predict what sort of things might come up. I've done some basic calculations, but I don't feel I can be too sure. Thanks anyway, I might have another stab at it.
Also, thanks for the link to study hacks. It seems very helpful!
I don't have any objections to school, really: I enjoy learning and acquiring knowledge and skills. The major disincentive to me is how much it will cost. The problem with working part time is that I want to get the best degree I possibly can, so I will have to treat my education like a full time job. Doing PT work on top of that may take its toll on my health and exam performance.
Anyway, thanks for your response.
teewonk: I don't know what my projected earnings will be, as I don't know what sort of job I'm going to take. I simply don't feel I can predict what sort of things might come up. I've done some basic calculations, but I don't feel I can be too sure. Thanks anyway, I might have another stab at it.
Also, thanks for the link to study hacks. It seems very helpful!
Perhaps you can "tweak" your needs and wants for bit of a balanced approach. It will be a compromise and many of life's problems can be solved this way. And it may just be enough of a compromise to get you going and still leave you fulfilled - i.e. have your cake and eat it too.
Typically, to find employment in pure sciences such as Chemistry, it is my understanding that higher degree such as phd is required because real life problems are applied science problems - not theoretical or research. This requires minimum 8 years of studying with associated agony and costs.
But the field of engineering, such as chemical engineering - say specializing in oil, the graduates can find employment with a 4 year bs degree. Should you graduate from top public schools such as CAL (chemical engineering at CAL is extremely demanding), it maybe sufficient to meet all the criterion while minimizing cost and with higher earning potential upon graduation.
Of course as with anything it will require research to find out the details of each step and to make it successful - i.e. what company to work for, what oil field specialty, which university caters to that specialty, what courses to take, who are the right professors to learn from? etc. etc.. You will need to talk to people and ask them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_engineering
Life is interesting because of the challenges. It appears that you've stumbled into one of them.
Typically, to find employment in pure sciences such as Chemistry, it is my understanding that higher degree such as phd is required because real life problems are applied science problems - not theoretical or research. This requires minimum 8 years of studying with associated agony and costs.
But the field of engineering, such as chemical engineering - say specializing in oil, the graduates can find employment with a 4 year bs degree. Should you graduate from top public schools such as CAL (chemical engineering at CAL is extremely demanding), it maybe sufficient to meet all the criterion while minimizing cost and with higher earning potential upon graduation.
Of course as with anything it will require research to find out the details of each step and to make it successful - i.e. what company to work for, what oil field specialty, which university caters to that specialty, what courses to take, who are the right professors to learn from? etc. etc.. You will need to talk to people and ask them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_engineering
Life is interesting because of the challenges. It appears that you've stumbled into one of them.
I have already applied to do chemistry, and got offers for that. Chemical engineering is more competitive, and as a result the grades needed to do it at top universities are higher. Imperial College, which gave me an offer of three As at A-level for Chemistry, has a standard requirement of two A*s and one A at A-level for Chemical Engineering. I am not confident that I will get those grades, and even if I did it would entail waiting the extra year to reapply.
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George the original one
- Posts: 5406
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
- Location: Wettest corner of Orygun
The fact that you're in the UK is significant. US schools offer a lot more flexibility in regards to college choices, but I suspect the UK college experience is still superior (even if the secondary schooling has declined significantly).
Have you looked into studying abroad? Since you've "got doubts", coming to the US for more flexible study options might be a good idea.
Have you looked into studying abroad? Since you've "got doubts", coming to the US for more flexible study options might be a good idea.
I've considered going to the US, but I decided against it as I would be required to pay money to go and take the SAT in some city hundreds of miles away. As my parents do not approve of the idea of me studying abroad at all, I would probably have had to pay my own transport costs too. Overall it seemed like more money and hassle than it was worth for something I wasn't entirely sure about doing.
In addition to that, I have a dislike of the American liberal arts tradition, having compulsory courses which are irrelevant to my major seems ridiculous to me; the thought of life without any alcohol at all does not appeal to me; and I get the overall impression that most universities in the US outside of the Ivy League are inferior in terms of quality of teaching.
It isn't that the idea doesn't have any merit, but it's really a big leap for me to take. There is also the issue of financing it: the UK student loan company will not finance study outside of the UK, and as I'm neither a US citizen, nor am I especially remarkable academically, I would be at a disadvantage in terms of getting scholarships.
In addition, it feels silly to spend four years getting a bachelor's, whereas if I stayed in the UK I could have a master's in that amount of time.
In addition to that, I have a dislike of the American liberal arts tradition, having compulsory courses which are irrelevant to my major seems ridiculous to me; the thought of life without any alcohol at all does not appeal to me; and I get the overall impression that most universities in the US outside of the Ivy League are inferior in terms of quality of teaching.
It isn't that the idea doesn't have any merit, but it's really a big leap for me to take. There is also the issue of financing it: the UK student loan company will not finance study outside of the UK, and as I'm neither a US citizen, nor am I especially remarkable academically, I would be at a disadvantage in terms of getting scholarships.
In addition, it feels silly to spend four years getting a bachelor's, whereas if I stayed in the UK I could have a master's in that amount of time.
Can you sit in on some classes to see what it's all about (our classes are so big here noone notices)
Or have a look at the text books.
Or email a lecturer in the subject you're interested in for more detail, or a proper course outline. Or a copy of an assignment from the previous year.
Please remember, you're a customer, and many lecturers are more than willing to help. Here if you're particularly interested and arrange a time they'll see you.
Can you do one paper while you make up your mind, ease your way in, and work part time?.
We have liaison people too, you can pop along and discuss.
Please don't go to uni unless you're ready and committed. it's just a piece of paper unless you're focused, and know where you're heading.
Better to do it at 40, and do the right courses IMHO
And those from my generation who followed the career for the $$$, have been disappointed, follow your passion.
I know people in accounting, here you need to have a degree and then complete a CPA I think its called, its very intense. If you do it full time, you'll be busy.
All the best
I hate how we put all this pressure on young people to do everything straight away. You're being entirely sensible in considering all your options.
Or have a look at the text books.
Or email a lecturer in the subject you're interested in for more detail, or a proper course outline. Or a copy of an assignment from the previous year.
Please remember, you're a customer, and many lecturers are more than willing to help. Here if you're particularly interested and arrange a time they'll see you.
Can you do one paper while you make up your mind, ease your way in, and work part time?.
We have liaison people too, you can pop along and discuss.
Please don't go to uni unless you're ready and committed. it's just a piece of paper unless you're focused, and know where you're heading.
Better to do it at 40, and do the right courses IMHO
And those from my generation who followed the career for the $$$, have been disappointed, follow your passion.
I know people in accounting, here you need to have a degree and then complete a CPA I think its called, its very intense. If you do it full time, you'll be busy.
All the best
I hate how we put all this pressure on young people to do everything straight away. You're being entirely sensible in considering all your options.
Thanks for the suggestions, george. I've been to university open days (it's common practice over here). The lecturers I met generally made a good impression; though it must be remembered that the purpose of open days is to sell the course to people. In one of my interviews they seemed genuinely interested in me as a person, though sadly that was the most expensive of my choices.
I can see your point about feeling the need to do everything straight away: a major motivation of mine is the fear of becoming another NEET who simply doesn't do anything. Perhaps this will lead me to make rash decisions, who knows.
I can see your point about feeling the need to do everything straight away: a major motivation of mine is the fear of becoming another NEET who simply doesn't do anything. Perhaps this will lead me to make rash decisions, who knows.
I don't want to spend three or four years of my life with the feeling that my net worth is continuously decreasing: it's distressing to me.
If it's distressing to you now, wait until you're a year and a half in, sitting in a class you don't quite feel like being in that day, studying chemistry because you have to, even though computer science, or history, or literature, or mathematics, or philosophy, or something else much more interesting is occupying your mind at the moment.
I had the same distressing feeling when I first started college right out of high school. All that debt, and it kept piling up each semester. So I left.
I only ever went back to school because I was able to get a full scholarship through my employer. Class was much more enjoyable knowing it wasn't simultaneously killing my dreams of financial independence.
I like school, and enjoy class for the most part, but the money can be a killer. I mean, imagine taking a great vacation to a desirable place full of fun things to do, but you know, the whole time, that at the end of it it's going to take you 5 or more years to pay for the whole thing. How could you possibly enjoy yourself?
I probably wouldn't go the PhD route, just because it would delay your earnings by 10 years. You could be retired in 10 years.
I think this is important to remember. Jacob's fond of reminding people that if you can save 80% of your net pay, you can retire in 5 years. What if, instead of school, you just looked for whatever work you could get? Take on a couple of easy-going jobs, develop a lifestyle that's cheap, but fun. Save 70%+ of your pay... and by 25 you would be approaching financial independence.
I guess if I were in your position, trying to make a decision I would ask myself this: What would I rather be when I'm 25, financially independent? Or an employed chemist?
If it's distressing to you now, wait until you're a year and a half in, sitting in a class you don't quite feel like being in that day, studying chemistry because you have to, even though computer science, or history, or literature, or mathematics, or philosophy, or something else much more interesting is occupying your mind at the moment.
I had the same distressing feeling when I first started college right out of high school. All that debt, and it kept piling up each semester. So I left.
I only ever went back to school because I was able to get a full scholarship through my employer. Class was much more enjoyable knowing it wasn't simultaneously killing my dreams of financial independence.
I like school, and enjoy class for the most part, but the money can be a killer. I mean, imagine taking a great vacation to a desirable place full of fun things to do, but you know, the whole time, that at the end of it it's going to take you 5 or more years to pay for the whole thing. How could you possibly enjoy yourself?
I probably wouldn't go the PhD route, just because it would delay your earnings by 10 years. You could be retired in 10 years.
I think this is important to remember. Jacob's fond of reminding people that if you can save 80% of your net pay, you can retire in 5 years. What if, instead of school, you just looked for whatever work you could get? Take on a couple of easy-going jobs, develop a lifestyle that's cheap, but fun. Save 70%+ of your pay... and by 25 you would be approaching financial independence.
I guess if I were in your position, trying to make a decision I would ask myself this: What would I rather be when I'm 25, financially independent? Or an employed chemist?
@tzxn3, I'd be careful about putting too many eggs in the ERE basket in your position. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I get the impression that you are under 20 and live at home with your parents. There's nothing wrong with that, but I wouldn't want to commit too heavily to ERE without knowing what it's like to work to fully support myself. There are many people who know the basics of ERE, but make the informed choice not to do it. Until you know what it's like to pay all of your own bills, I don't know if you're really making an informed choice.
Your OP wasn't really about ERE, but more about whether your should borrow money for education. Based on your previous post, combined with this one, I think you should borrow the money and go to school. You describe yourself as indecisive and unmotivated, but smart and good at school. Thus, to me, you seem like a good candidate for higher education. The system will force you to make a decision, and the debt will suck (I borrowed about $140,000 US for my education), but it is a great motivator. The repayment terms seem favorable, and if you apply ERE prinicples to loan repayment, it would seem you could relatively quickly pay of a debt of 27k, assuming you could get a job with an income of 20k, no?
FWIW, I have a bachelor's degree in Chemistry from the US. My mom has a PhD in Chemistry from the UK (we moved to the US when I was young). I did some postgrad research in Chemistry in the UK. To me, Chemists do seem to be dime-a-dozen, so it was kind of surprising when you remarked that they're not.
Your OP wasn't really about ERE, but more about whether your should borrow money for education. Based on your previous post, combined with this one, I think you should borrow the money and go to school. You describe yourself as indecisive and unmotivated, but smart and good at school. Thus, to me, you seem like a good candidate for higher education. The system will force you to make a decision, and the debt will suck (I borrowed about $140,000 US for my education), but it is a great motivator. The repayment terms seem favorable, and if you apply ERE prinicples to loan repayment, it would seem you could relatively quickly pay of a debt of 27k, assuming you could get a job with an income of 20k, no?
FWIW, I have a bachelor's degree in Chemistry from the US. My mom has a PhD in Chemistry from the UK (we moved to the US when I was young). I did some postgrad research in Chemistry in the UK. To me, Chemists do seem to be dime-a-dozen, so it was kind of surprising when you remarked that they're not.
Take on a couple of easy-going jobs, develop a lifestyle that's cheap, but fun. Save 70%+ of your pay... and by 25 you would be approaching financial independence.
My parents are fond of reminding me that there are no jobs for non-graduates. I'd really appreciate it if someone told me how much effort it will be for me to get a job if I don't bother with a degree: it's not something I have any experience of. I've had it drilled into me from an early age that a degree is something you can't really do without. I know that's nonsense, but I would like a feel for what would lie ahead if I just went out and looked for a job. I see all these reports of the numbers of NEETs ([young people] Not in Education Employment or Training) rising, and quite frankly it scares me.
I guess if I were in your position, trying to make a decision I would ask myself this: What would I rather be when I'm 25, financially independent? Or an employed chemist?
Indeed. It's a decision that I have to make for myself.
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Mo: You're right, I'm under 20 and I live with my parents. I also understand the need to exercise caution with any decision. I definitely don't want to go into anything without the correct understanding of what I'm doing, and also knowing the limitations of my understanding.
On the subject of the debt, I don't know what it will be exactly. My parents are willing to give me an unspecified amount which will probably cover most or all of my living costs. My current applications are all for four year professional degrees, but I could very easily switch to a three-year BSc some time in the first two years. I could also do an industrial placement, which would pay a salary that would almost exactly cover my tuition and living costs for that year. £27k is probably the best case scenario. Worst case scenario is around double that.
My statement about chemists not being dime-a-dozen was entirely based on my subjective experience and anecdotal reports I've heard. I may well have been wrong about that.
My parents are fond of reminding me that there are no jobs for non-graduates. I'd really appreciate it if someone told me how much effort it will be for me to get a job if I don't bother with a degree: it's not something I have any experience of. I've had it drilled into me from an early age that a degree is something you can't really do without. I know that's nonsense, but I would like a feel for what would lie ahead if I just went out and looked for a job. I see all these reports of the numbers of NEETs ([young people] Not in Education Employment or Training) rising, and quite frankly it scares me.
I guess if I were in your position, trying to make a decision I would ask myself this: What would I rather be when I'm 25, financially independent? Or an employed chemist?
Indeed. It's a decision that I have to make for myself.
----------
Mo: You're right, I'm under 20 and I live with my parents. I also understand the need to exercise caution with any decision. I definitely don't want to go into anything without the correct understanding of what I'm doing, and also knowing the limitations of my understanding.
On the subject of the debt, I don't know what it will be exactly. My parents are willing to give me an unspecified amount which will probably cover most or all of my living costs. My current applications are all for four year professional degrees, but I could very easily switch to a three-year BSc some time in the first two years. I could also do an industrial placement, which would pay a salary that would almost exactly cover my tuition and living costs for that year. £27k is probably the best case scenario. Worst case scenario is around double that.
My statement about chemists not being dime-a-dozen was entirely based on my subjective experience and anecdotal reports I've heard. I may well have been wrong about that.
I don't know the market where you are. i guess I can only share experience.
When I left Uni, I got a sales job, best thing i could do, taught me a lot, gave me cred. Someone I know in engineering also took that route after getting some experience, He's done very very nicely.
So if you can imagine a number of years ago I was having some down time with third year marketing grads who really liked the sound of my job. So I asked them, what are you going to do, no idea. So i said why don't you do sales.
Answer, we didn't go to uni so we could become reps, no way. I found that a very sad attitude, they all hoped there were jobs for marketing assistants, I guess it's got a good title.
I was also teaching high school students when apprenticeships came up, all the science teachers talked to possible candidates parents at parent teacher evenings, none of those parents wanted their children to apply, they all wanted them to go to uni. What the parents didn't seem to realise - their children had been selected because they were more hands on.
And if you haven't- you might want to read the millionaire next door, have a look at their occupations
So I would consider sales jobs, apprenticeship, go and talk to someone in the field you're interested in.
Just go with an open mind.
When I left Uni, I got a sales job, best thing i could do, taught me a lot, gave me cred. Someone I know in engineering also took that route after getting some experience, He's done very very nicely.
So if you can imagine a number of years ago I was having some down time with third year marketing grads who really liked the sound of my job. So I asked them, what are you going to do, no idea. So i said why don't you do sales.
Answer, we didn't go to uni so we could become reps, no way. I found that a very sad attitude, they all hoped there were jobs for marketing assistants, I guess it's got a good title.
I was also teaching high school students when apprenticeships came up, all the science teachers talked to possible candidates parents at parent teacher evenings, none of those parents wanted their children to apply, they all wanted them to go to uni. What the parents didn't seem to realise - their children had been selected because they were more hands on.
And if you haven't- you might want to read the millionaire next door, have a look at their occupations
So I would consider sales jobs, apprenticeship, go and talk to someone in the field you're interested in.
Just go with an open mind.