Early Retirement Extreme Forums

Hello early retirement community, and hello Jacob! I discovered the ERE book from a YouTube channel I like to watch called "Spencer's Adventures", which is mostly about reducing technology use and minimalism but occasionally touches on frugality. I have been dissatisfied with work culture since I was old enough to understand the concept of careers (late elementary - middle school) and I've been more dissatisfied since the crisis in my country after realizing how much people where I live work and for how little. It took me years to understand that even "comfortable" middle class people with cars and ranch gadgets are one missed paycheck away from homelessness. The government in my country is thinking of implementing a six day work week, and Greece is already one of the most hardworking countries in Europe, if not the most, if I remember correctly. That combined with hearing the experiences of the adults in my life who worked corporate or private sector "traditional" type jobs made me feel that I'm not a great fit for that kind of lifestyle.

I remember signing up for my school's choir and dance class in preschool and also to be my school band's percussionist "so I won't have to get a normal job when I grow up". I remember participating in each and every play my school had every summer until I reached high school and mandatory theatre/choir participation was no longer part of the curriculum. Whether I literal toddler had the discipline to stick to things consistently enough to make fast progress is a different question, and of course I didn't have the lung capacity or physical strength to learn classical technique yet either. And of course that is a very simplistic way of thinking for a kid, a lot of people know how to sing or how to play an instrument at a rudimentary level but there are a lot of genetics and natural aptitude and depending on where you live market competition involved in becoming a professional performer in some. I'm not discussing mainstream entertainment here, - by watching the Grammies or taking a look at the existence of people like Ice Spice it is evident that raw prowess, virtuosity and healthy technique has little correlation with who becomes a mainstream entertainer. I'm talking more about classical music or theatre type performance where some level of raw ability and virtuosity is required. As I got older I realized it required quite a lot of dedicating and practice to become employable in any of those things, and that also means quite a bit of spare time and money. I've got much less of a problem with the money part as musical studies and even sports to an extent are often subsidized by the government here in Greece, but I realize that after I enter my working life as an adult I would like to be able to afford to work less to be able to make more progress on my craft faster.

I was told by my family or it was heavily implied that I'm pipe dreaming and I should get a "practical" career like becoming a social worker or a teacher or to "study psychology". In Greek high school you have to chose a direction during the second year and I chose humanities and social sciences, that is why. Now I believe these professions are neccceary for the world to function and we need people of all sorts of different temperaments and abilities for society to sustain itself, - but I believe it takes a special kind of person to work in one of these sectors and I simply do not believe I have what it takes. Social workers and counselors deal with a lot of horrible things on a daily basis and see some of the world's most vulnerable people at their worst, and those who do not have what it takes to do those professions often deeply regret choosing them solely for the paycheck. And teachers have to deal with the whims of young children, with extra work at home and with having low pay. I absolutely believe these people are valuable and in fact offer far more tangible worth to society than I ever will if things go according to plan, but I simply do not have what it takes to be a teacher or a social worker and I believe none of these vocations should be chosen solely for the paycheck or as a mere backup plan. If you want a safe backup job, become am accountant or something.

According to my teachers I show a lot of potential for a professional career, - and I get this even from teachers who are very honest and would never downplay something even for students with a fragile ego, and I've been told "I have a very fertile ground" (figuratively speaking). My only issue is the discipline and dedication aspect which I struggle with even with things I genuinely enjoy, which I've somewhat fixed, and then there's the ability to afford to have enough spare time to actually practice consistently and seriously to become employment. Due to the nature of classical voice as an instrument a lot of singers study seriously during their working careers as grown ups (I don't have the time to explain the mechanics and logistics of it all but you can probably infer why). I've also talked to instrumental musicians (ie strings, woodwind, brass) who were pushed by family to work other careers but did auditions and made it work afterwards while working. Therefore my goal is not to fully retire early, but to be able to drastically cut my living expenses so I can work less and afford to hone my craft. And if that means less fancy gadgets, clothing and material possessions or even a smaller nontraditional living space, I am okay with that. Even if choosing a career I am called to means I might be earning less than the people in tech and finance, who can afford pretty cars and suburban homes, I am also okay with that and would in fact infinitely prefer it over working a soul less corporate job I do not feel called to and built for.

I had a difficult childhood (massive story, might share a different time) and I didn't get to play and enjoy myself when the time was right and now I seel out that joy and role play element in my work. I lost my childhood to mental illness and having shit deadbeat family and being exposed to drugs and the like since the womb, I will not lose my adulthood to working to I can buy fancy crap. If following my gift from god as a vocation means I may be earning slightly less than the median wage and will not be able to amuse myself with adult toys like cars and overpriced Italian garbage, that is something's I have to be okay with and learn to live with. That's how it is, sometimes your desired career choice that is your divine calling and your true vocation does not always align with that pays the most and you have to be okay with that and learn to make do. Like a schoolteacher or a social worker, you're doing a service to the world and you may feel called to work with kids or vulnerable people from your heart of hearts but you have to learn to make do with a slightly less than average wage, - if you sincerely want to pursue your vocation to help over a fancy finance job and a McMansion in the suburbs. It's your choice to make and ultimately there is no right and wrong. People just have different priorities. I like to think that people are a lot more adaptable and flexible than we make them out to be and that in times of trouble and recession or in situations where people don't earn much we humans learn to adapt and be clever and be a lot more thrifty and mentally flexible than if they were earning 500k a year and had a house with a pool. That is what makes humans human, we learn to adapt and to make do and to be content with our available resources. Okay I yapped a lot but you get my point, the point I'm trying to make is that something akin to massively cutting my expenses and reassessing my wants and needs, and potentially choosing a more minimalist living space would give me a lot of time freedom and flexibility to hone my abilities and max out my potential and eventually move on to a career I truly want. If I earn less than the average person something like barrista FIRE and having a nest egg would allow me to do what I am called to do for a living without having to worry about living on what is essentially akin to a school teachers salary, or barely the median wage. If there is a dry spell or I lose my career to a fluke accident it would give me something to fall back on, and if I never came even close to professional level in the first place then full early retirement would allow me the ability to do what I love "full time" in a sense without having to worry about making it profitable, though I am told I have very good prospects. It sounds like a win win to me, and no matter what happens this kind of lifestyle would allow me to adapt and be content no matter my circumstances. I prefer italian arias over overpriced Italian junk cluttering my home any time of the day. If I end up blowing up against my will and making bank like Luciano Pavarotti or Andrea Bocelli that's also completely fine by me, I believe I can adapt and make do with whatever resources fortune throws at me, as long as my fundamental needs are covered. The teachings of the stoics and Seneca and Epictetus have helped me greatly.

I am currently learning interior design and I plan to specialize in the private yautch/naval industry. It is a very viable industry in my location as Greeks have always been a seafaring nation, and it's also very lucrative. It wouldn't be too difficult for me to have both a quite high income AND a very high savings rate if I pursue this as my initial/backup career. It has both a pretty high initial income and a very high income ceiling later on, and it isn't too difficult to progress in it and break into it since there aren't that many people with that skill or specialty in the first place. A ton of work in it now days and in design and applied arts as a whole is essentially remote, so commuting and paying for cars and stuff is a non issue. I want to do vanlife for a while and maybe travel around mainland Greece in a van. I've never seen most of my homeland despite having lived there for almost two decades. I'm basically about to go ovo vegeterian for ethical reasons (I watched clips of Dominion in middle school) and I'm also a practicing Buddhist which gives me more incentive. (I won't explain how that happened since Greece is 90% Greek Orthodox and there are less than 10,000 Buddhists in the entire country, but I might share my life story in general a different time. I've lived a pretty wild life which I believe has been an asset in my craft and has given me maturity and theatricality many don't reach until they're middle aged. I might share my full life story here a different time, I've lived a wild life, I've even thought of writing a memoir or blog). I imagine if you cut down the main two expenses, housing, utilities and food, a little travel locally won't break the bank.

I have learnt to make a budget and make do with less consumption even in my hobbies. Since I like reading but don't like spending 40 - 60 € a month for books, switching to an e-reader with a subscription and utilizing the library could help, and I could only buy physically personal favorites and books that left an impact on me. I like to draw and make webcomics in my spare time and can see myself breaking into the fine art world in the far future when I age out of my current trajectory, - can make do with watercolor from flying tiger over fancy oil paints and canvases. I like to write and you don't need a ton of supplies for that, pen and paper or a long lasting used laptop is enough. I like to learn languages and that's easy to do in a free or low cost way. I have no interest in streaming services and prefer reading books and manga over watching things any time, I do not plan to own a television in my adult life. I've tried getting into TV shows and Netflix and stuff but I can't get myself interested, the only exception to that is "One Piece" which you can watch for free online/on the free version of Crunchyroll. I don't care about Stranger Things, I do not care about the latest TikTok trend, and I prefer reading the manga over watching the anime and right now my #1 priority is maxing out my potential and seeing how far I can go in my current trajectory. I've tried getting myself into things like series and videogames but genuinely do not care. I have a bit of an issue with using reddit too much and taking online advice too seriously but no one's perfect and I'm working on it.

I think I'm on a very good trajectory earning potential/ savings wise and my values certainly align with minimalism and prioritizing time and experiences over material possession and keeping up with the Joneses. So mindset is a non issue for me, I do not feel deprived. I would like to ask though to what extent investing matters in the FIRE/ERE path and if you have to invest in stocks or bonds or know a lot about the stock market to make early retirement/semi retirement viable. Or if it's savings rate that matters the most and I should focus on that. Reddit says "I shouldn't get my hopes high and if I'm lucky I will be working for at the very least the next 30 years" and "people rarely live up to their childhood dreams" and "I shouldn't even think about it and should just learn to code or learn to be a plumber instead", I'm paraphrasing but that's what I'm usually told. I believe I have a good, pragmatist mindset about this at the same time without under estimating myself and giving up too early. I believe you need to know when to give up but I'm very far from that point right now. So yeah, I think I'm on a great path for everything else but want to know to what extent investing matters for FIRE and if it's just gambling with a fancier name like my uncle says it is, or if it's impossible to retire without it. I hear many contradicting opinions. If you have any good resources to share about the subject please feel free.

I live with my single grandmother at the moment (like I said, messed up childhood/home life) and while people in her family live a long time you never know what can happen so is also part of what is pushing me to pursue the ERE lifestyle, learning to make due with as little as possible, because I know what happens to dependent adults who are orphans but have aged out of the foster care system, and I want to be prepared for a worst case scenario. I have a small inheritance if that helps, and I'm technically a landlord, and I get around 500€ a month from rent. Without it I think we would be lower middle class or even struggling, and it helps pay for my part time conservatory lessons. (Greece technically lacks the infrastructure for full time conservatories akin to Julliard and the like but that's a whole can of worms). I also see much of my family close and extended being in debt and broke and would like to make better financial decisions. Neither of my parents worked or earned much for most of their lives and I'd like to turn out different. I'd like to be the apple that fell far from the tree, figuratively. I stay away from drugs and do not drink for religious reasons. I don't smoke because my voice is my instrument, it would be a shame to throw away my gift. So spending on vices is a non factor for me.

That was all I had to say, I'm heading to eat noodles and practice. I'd like to make something out of my life someday and be the only person in my first degree family who did not die in my forties fro, overdosing, I'd like to be the happy ending to my family bloodline. You can't always prevent the people around you from making stupid decisions but you can certainly learn to avoid the bad decisions of others. I believe the biggest privilege is mental health and having a good head on your shoulders.

That as enough yapp, until next time. Take care, any advice is appreciated!

Welcome Pagan, you sound very interesting What sort of Buddhism do you practice ? I have had an interest in the pure land school.

I love Greece although I hear its not an easy place to earn money and get ahead, although it sounds like you already have a head start. Interior design sounds for yachts sounds like a great career choice.

chenda wrote: ↑

Thu May 15, 2025 11:15 am

Welcome Pagan, you sound very interesting What sort of Buddhism do you practice ? I have had an interest in the pure land school.

I love Greece although I hear its not an easy place to earn money and get ahead, although it sounds like you already have a head start. Interior design sounds for yachts sounds like a great career choice.

Hello Chenda! Thank you for reading this far and for the friendly reply haha.

I practice mainly in the plum village tradition (there is a small but active community in Athens), but consider myself non denominational. If you want I can recommend some resources, I like Pureland because I'm an ex christian and it feels familiar.

Greece isn't a very good place to find a job, and this was especially true in the crisis, and many young people are leaving. I may leave after I have my career more figured out, but before that I'd like to do vanlife or temporarily live on a cheap ass remote island like Antikythera. I think they give you free money and a house to move in because that's how bad their population crisis is.

paganinipanini wrote: ↑

Thu May 15, 2025 11:23 am

I practice mainly in the plum village tradition (there is a small but active community in Athens), but consider myself non denominational.

Interesting, I had not heard of the plum village tradition so always interested to hear more.

I used to live with some Greeks and they said the same. I spent some time in Volos which was great but I think quite expensive. I look forward to hearing more about your plans!

Welcome to the forums! Good to have more classically-inclined musicians on the forum, and I enjoyed reading your introduction. Your situation seems a little like mine in that I'm also considering how/how much to balance going for music versus other sources of income. One great thing is that ERE-levels of spending make it Very easy to do whatever you want. I've been working a full-time job for about a year now and have saved enough in that time to pay for around 5 years of 0 income, and that's while I was also increasing what I was doing in terms of playing gigs locally. I've even been making more money from music than my total spending. I didn't have as much time to practice as I might have liked, and certainly didn't use as much of the time I had in order to practice as I could have, but I've still definitely improved during this time. Reddit definitely doesn't see the low-spending ways many people here are living as realistic or desirable and they can miss out on some good options because of it.

Regarding investing, it's important, although if you're still early on and don't have much saved yet, it doesn't really matter yet. You don't have to know a lot to get started, although there may be Greece-specific considerations that I don't know about. It's not impossible to retire without investing, but neither is it just gambling (something something middle way). I'm certainly not the most informed here but I mostly stick to a stock index fund with some amount of fixed income investments (bonds are included within this category) as well. I'm planning to take a deeper look and reallocate some stuff pretty soon, but it's hard to go too wrong if you are diversified and are taking an appropriate amount of risk. Hope to keep hearing from you on the forum!

Hi, welcome! Dutch person here... Your English is pretty good, keep that in mind as a possibility for some side income. (For example tutoring).

And I want to ask: you live with your grandmother, and I'm glad for you that you can do that. But what will happen to you / your housing situation if she were to die? If that would mean you would no longer be allowed to live there, are there currently things you can do to prevent that from happening? For example, in the Netherlands if someone's renting, they can add a person to their lease and then if the original renter dies, the new person on the lease can continue to live there (if they pay the rent of course). If a person owns a house, they can create/update the will to allow someone else to live in the house once they die.

As for books, here in the Netherlands the membership to the public library is 50 euros/year, and it comes with access to digital books as well. You can "borrow" such a book and download it to your ereader. Perhaps something similar exists in Greece as well? I tried one of the commercial ebook subscriptions too, but found that the books you can borrow that way are just a very small selection and mostly the not interesting books, so I cancelled the subscription again.

DutchGirl wrote: ↑

Thu May 15, 2025 11:50 pm

And I want to ask: you live with your grandmother, and I'm glad for you that you can do that. But what will happen to you / your housing situation if she were to die? If that would mean you would no longer be allowed to live there, are there currently things you can do to prevent that from happening? For example, in the Netherlands if someone's renting, they can add a person to their lease and then if the original renter dies, the new person on the lease can continue to live there (if they pay the rent of course). If a person owns a house, they can create/update the will to allow someone else to live in the house once they die.

As for books, here in the Netherlands the membership to the public library is 50 euros/year, and it comes with access to digital books as well. You can "borrow" such a book and download it to your ereader. Perhaps something similar exists in Greece as well? I tried one of the commercial ebook subscriptions too, but found that the books you can borrow that way are just a very small selection and mostly the not interesting books, so I cancelled the subscription again.

About the first, I do have a few options, but I don't know how good they are. I could live with my uncles until I have an income of my own, but they are pensioners and have a daughter with downs syndrome who requires full time care. My sister is also an option as she is way older than me, but she has a newborn baby and her and her husband don't earn much. I will look into what you said but to be able to do that I will need to have my own money to actually pay property tax for the place I live in (I forgot to say that my grandma owns the apartment we live in, and I have a small inheritance that generates 500 euros a month). I have also looked into homeless shelters or women's shelters in Athens in case of a worst case scenario. There have been many, many other ways in which I have struggled with indepedence and doing things on my own and this is just the tip of the iceberg, I will probably make an autobioraphical post one day or a blog explaining my life story because I think people really need to hear it. If I actually end making something out of my life at least.

I can probably keep our apartment and small inheritance, - if I manage to live independently enough to pay property tax.

Now that you mentioned housing and being from the Neatherlands, I have a funny story to tell. When I was first worried about this and getting desperate and also thinking of my musical trajectory in relation to it, and the thought of saving up to relocate to norway and commit a crime so I can end up in a Norwegian prison and have housing and my needs met and also time to practice. This sounds ridiculous when I say it out loud but in my head it made perfect sense at the time. It's really odd how prisoners and criminals have their basic needs met better than good citizens who simply got a bad hand in life.

About signing up for the library, I tried going there with my grandma when I was younger and convincing her to sign me up (It's only 7 euros as an one time fee) but she didn't let me for some reason. Now that I'm a legal adult I can do anything I want I suppose. So if I manage to live independently enough to get those 7 euros, I can sign up. I've thought of getting a Kindle + kindle unlimited, or Kobo with it's own subscription, have you tried those, and are they worth it? Can we take that to DMs maybe?

Thank you for the reply, it's nice hearing from people on the same path in different parts of the world. I will keep updating you!

philipreal wrote: ↑

Thu May 15, 2025 3:47 pm

Welcome to the forums! Good to have more classically-inclined musicians on the forum, and I enjoyed reading your introduction. Your situation seems a little like mine in that I'm also considering how/how much to balance going for music versus other sources of income. One great thing is that ERE-levels of spending make it Very easy to do whatever you want. I've been working a full-time job for about a year now and have saved enough in that time to pay for around 5 years of 0 income, and that's while I was also increasing what I was doing in terms of playing gigs locally. I've even been making more money from music than my total spending. I didn't have as much time to practice as I might have liked, and certainly didn't use as much of the time I had in order to practice as I could have, but I've still definitely improved during this time. Reddit definitely doesn't see the low-spending ways many people here are living as realistic or desirable and they can miss out on some good options because of it.

Hello fello creative

I feel like we creatives of any kind, - especially creatives in over-saturated industries that don't have many options for making a viable career (ie, people who want to sell oil paintings, people who want to be in a psychedelic rock band, etc) have a lot more motivation for ERE than most people, because we know we are called to do something specific with our lives but the options are very few and not very realistic for the average person, or if you're like me there are viable options out there but you need to be quite good to get them for yourself and ERE is a great way to get to that aim. ''Keep it as a hobby'' and ''do it on the side'' make my blood boil, it's akin to telling someone whose divine calling is to be a priest or a monk to pray in their spare time after returing from their day job. Most people will never understand being called from your heart of hearts to commit your life to something that exists for mere entertainment and aesthetic value and in fact barely have any interests outside of consuming objects and media. Okay, I am being a little dramatic but I rarely see people who have hobbies outside of watching Netflix nowdays.

Congratulations on your savings btw! Five years without income sounds like more than enough to maybe switch to part time and dedicate the rest of your time to practice. Though I don't know what kind of music you make and I don't know if in your genre virtuosity and raw skill have any correlation with how capable you are of making a viable career. So maybe invest some in marketing yourself and promotion? I have no idea. When I hear gigs I usually think like, a person making beats or pop music, or like a punk rock band or something. Difficult to monetize those things compared to say, idk, get an entry level job opening at a local philharmonic (where I live it's not horrificly competitive like I hear from Americans on reddit. 11,000 people employed as musicians for an entire country of 300 million is not at all good.)

That was all I had to say I think. Should head to practice. Or take a walk first. I woke up feeling awful today, I don't know why. Take care.

Regarding your main desired career (music), do you have a concrete vision what it would actually entail, in practical terms? I.e. who would be paying you, for doing what, where, what hours, with what colleagues, how competetive is that position, how likely is one to hold it over years/decades, how happy/unhappy are people in those positions and why, how many alternative positions exist should you need to exit your current one (because of e.g. incompatibility with your boss) etc. etc. So basically all practicalities of particular career path. A best way to research that would be of course to talk to a lot of people doing music for a living.

zbigi wrote: ↑

Fri May 16, 2025 5:16 am

Regarding your main desired career (music), do you have a concrete vision what it would actually entail, in practical terms? I.e. who would be paying you, for doing what, where, what hours, with what colleagues, how competetive is that position, how likely is one to hold it over years/decades, how happy/unhappy are people in those positions and why, how many alternative positions exist should you need to exit your current one (because of e.g. incompatibility with your boss) etc. etc. So basically all practicalities of particular career path. A best way to research that would be of course to talk to a lot of people doing music for a living.

Regarding the practicalities of my main desired career, yes, I have considered each and every one of these practicalities and details and have considered alternatives within the same field in case I want to change my mind (not neccecarily teaching, but I would like to one day). The lifestyle I am looking for is more travel based/contract work but I am willing to look into long term salaried openings if I change my mind or if life brings is that way. For the work I want to do specifically pay is per night, not per hour like in a typical office job or like an orchestra ensemble. It's not akin to a corporation job where you might have a boss you fight with weekly or something. Pay depends on what level you reach, and much like in every field there are high, middle and lower earners in it as well, - but I am told those who show promise and potential can earn more, much like in every other work. About how likely one is to hold it over the span of a decade, I actually have no idea but I imagine we have a normal retirement age similar to that of people in any random career. I live in Europe where things aren't massively competitive like in the United States and public funding is generally much much better. I hear horror stories from the US about 100 people competing for the same low paying job opening, it's nothing like that here. And I am of course not even considering more ''commercial'' or mainstream forms of music, like trying to be in a known band or being a pop singer or something like that. About colleagues and coworkers, I again have no idea because the lifestyle I seek is more nomadic, so it would for sure be helpful to have basic conversational skills in several languages and to understand people with different cultural backgrounds well. It would be an asset for someone in my trajectory. I also need to know several languages (at a basic level) for roles, I am also pretty good at faking accents haha. I have talked to a few people in my career (Or similar adjacent ones) and they say they're very satisfied with their work life. I am by no means a silly starry eyed kid who can barely hold a tune daydreaming about being a primadonna one day, I have thought about it deeply, I have asked teachers and mentors and I am told I do show promise and potential. I am also not deluded and I am building marketable skills outside it in case my promise is false, - but I feel it would be criminal to underestimate myself and give up now.

About the hours, I am okay working somewhat more than the average person if that means I'd have a career I feel called to, and I would also be willing to live with less and make do with what I have depending on how much I will earn. The whole point of ERE for me is building a nest egg that will provide me a comfortable standard of living *regardless* of how profitable my desired career ends up being.

Did everything I wrote down make sense?

paganinipanini wrote: ↑

Fri May 16, 2025 4:52 am

When I was first worried about this and getting desperate and also thinking of my musical trajectory in relation to it, and the thought of saving up to relocate to norway and commit a crime so I can end up in a Norwegian prison and have housing and my needs met

...what kind of crime did you have in mind?

Chris wrote: ↑

Fri May 16, 2025 7:49 am

...what kind of crime did you have in mind?

Nothing too serious, I had no idea. Something that doesn't directly endanger the lives of others ideally, like tax fraud or something, or participating in a robbery without actually killing anyone. It was a really desperate moment.

paganinipanini wrote: ↑

Fri May 16, 2025 7:18 am

Did everything I wrote down make sense?

Looks like you got it covered. I would look more into career longetivity though. How many musicians working like you plan to work are over 40 years old, over 50 and over 60. If it's less than you'd expect (assuming the industry as a whole is neither growing or shrinking, there should be almost as many 60 year olds as there are 30 year olds), then t means people change careers in the meantime, for reasons either that are voluntary or not. Either can be a pontential red flag, so it's worth doing the research.
For example, I once worked with a jazz pianist who changed careers to be a software engineer. I didn't ask why, though I imagine the costs of living in the US had something to do with it.

EDIT: typos again... My 2013 laptop's keyboard has seen its best days.

paganinipanini wrote: ↑

Fri May 16, 2025 5:12 am

I feel like we creatives of any kind, - especially creatives in over-saturated industries that don't have many options for making a viable career (ie, people who want to sell oil paintings, people who want to be in a psychedelic rock band, etc) have a lot more motivation for ERE than most people, because we know we are called to do something specific with our lives but the options are very few and not very realistic for the average person, or if you're like me there are viable options out there but you need to be quite good to get them for yourself and ERE is a great way to get to that aim. ''Keep it as a hobby'' and ''do it on the side'' make my blood boil, it's akin to telling someone whose divine calling is to be a priest or a monk to pray in their spare time after returing from their day job. Most people will never understand being called from your heart of hearts to commit your life to something that exists for mere entertainment and aesthetic value and in fact barely have any interests outside of consuming objects and media. Okay, I am being a little dramatic but I rarely see people who have hobbies outside of watching Netflix nowdays.

Congratulations on your savings btw! Five years without income sounds like more than enough to maybe switch to part time and dedicate the rest of your time to practice. Though I don't know what kind of music you make and I don't know if in your genre virtuosity and raw skill have any correlation with how capable you are of making a viable career. So maybe invest some in marketing yourself and promotion? I have no idea. When I hear gigs I usually think like, a person making beats or pop music, or like a punk rock band or something. Difficult to monetize those things compared to say, idk, get an entry level job opening at a local philharmonic (where I live it's not horrificly competitive like I hear from Americans on reddit. 11,000 people employed as musicians for an entire country of 300 million is not at all good.)

Well it looks like we have some dissimilarities as well, although I'm glad for the response. I wouldn't describe myself as called from my heart of hearts to commit my life to music (or anything else for that matter), although I may choose to think of myself that way while practicing/performing. I love music, but there are a lot of other things I love, and a lot of other things I'm sure that I would love if I had a connection to them. I do understand how you feel about the dismissiveness other people can show for what you do and it sucks, although I at least find it helpful to think of the part of them that offers that advice with genuine concern, even if uninformed or misguided.

As for my music, I play violin and piano, classically trained, but I've ventured at least a bit into jazz and some other genres on piano (and would like to do it on violin too). I'm not currently good enough to go for like actually competitive music-career jobs in the US. I am good enough to be one of the top violinists in my local symphony orchestra and get asked to do things like pit for local opera, a couple wedding gigs, bunch of holiday stuff, etc. I also am the pianist for a local church and have played a few jazz band gigs on keyboard, both big band and combos. Trying to market myself is something I'm definitely interested in doing, since up until now I have done exactly none of that, the majority of stuff I play in has been the result of people asking "Philip can you play in this?" which would seem to me that there are opportunities on the table. You can look at my journal if you want to learn a bit more.

In any case, if you do feel you have a calling, you can be aided a lot and easily avoid some failure-modes with the help of the information that's here and the experience of being around the very cool people who are here (even if just through text).

zbigi wrote: ↑

Fri May 16, 2025 9:06 am

Looks like you got it covered. I would look more into career longetivity though. How many musicians working like you plan to work are over 40 years old, over 50 and over 60. If it's less than you'd expect (assuming the industry as a whole is neither growing or shrinking, there should be almost as many 60 year olds as there are 30 year olds), then t means people change careers in the meantime, for reasons either that are voluntary or not. Either can be a pontential red flag, so it's worth doing the research.
For example, I once worked with a jazz pianist who changed careers to be a software engineer. I didn't ask why, though I imagine the costs of living in the US had something to do with it.

EDIT: typos again... My 2013 laptop's keyboard has seen its best days.

I live in a low cost of living country (and if I move, which may happen, I will consider the cost of living here very seriously), and most of the musicians in my teacher's circles seem to have been in the game for decades, especially people who work with like, the National Opera of Greece or something. And there are of course other opportunities. I won't move to a place like the US unless my career blows up against my will or something like that. But of course nobody plans for this scenario, so we shouldn't as well. Generally I try not to give up immedietly but at the same time I don't believe a person should bet on or have all their eggs in the best case scenario. I believe I am going about this in a cautious realistic way.