Early Retirement Extreme Forums

This ERE community means a lot to me,it's not easy to find like-minded people. Certainly I meet frugal people but they are still focused on consumerism as a means to happiness. To me the value of ERE is not about retiring young, instead it's about living a great life without relying on the industrial machine.

Personally I'm most interested in the mindset and psychological changes of ERE more than the skills acquisition. There are mindset changes to create a different lifestyle, and there are the psychological changes which come from living that lifestyle. So that's what I intend this blog to be about.

I'm not a creative type but looking forward to journaling as a creative outlet.

For what it's worth, my background is: Living in Ireland, married, no kids, 75% savings rate, hoping to FIRE in 10 years.

Looking forward to your journal and thoughts on this topic.

I like to see mindset and psychological transformation as a crucial part of the skills portfolio. If you're not in a right place mentally, it's hard to jump to outward skills acquisition / lifestyle change. It's also the case that acquiring external skills and intentionally changing your life will probably lead to mental growth. As others have explored and my own life experience has shown, the industrial machine doesn't much care about internal development past a certain level.

bookworm wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 30, 2025 7:07 am

Looking forward to your journal and thoughts on this topic.

I like to see mindset and psychological transformation as a crucial part of the skills portfolio. If you're not in a right place mentally, it's hard to jump to outward skills acquisition / lifestyle change. It's also the case that acquiring external skills and intentionally changing your life will probably lead to mental growth. As others have explored and my own life experience has shown, the industrial machine doesn't much care about internal development past a certain level.

You're right the industrial machine doesn't incentivize internal development a whole lot. I think we've all met plenty of people in work who are egotistical, hard to deal with, and poor listeners; and yet they're the expert at the job. Some jobs even reward people for being a jerk.

It's quite common that people on here enjoy planning a lot, including getting the best risk/return for their money. While doing the planning I enjoy it too, although I've found that by giving more of my attention to money it actually made me more anxious about it. Despite being in a great position financially I had a mindset that left me always thinking there was something wrong with how I'm managing my money.

6 months back I switched my focus to living the lifestyle I want. That means more time on hobbies, mini adventures, meeting friends and exercising. It has made a massive difference to my sense of satisfaction. People often give advice to focus now on building the life you want, and I'm going all-in on that. The doing is always more satisfying than the planning.

My hero in life is our family's old handyman. When I was a teen he used to talk with me for hours while painting and the way he listened mattered a lot to me. Years later I realise I want to be like him.

Very often we talk about learning skills to replace consumption. I cannot match Jacob's kitchen carpentry and bicycle repair; instead I am focusing on developing skills for a happy life.

I am autistic so I struggle with having a social life but I think it's important. I'm trying to be a good listener because I believe it is something that makes other people happy and adds a lot to socialising. Usually people are listening to respond instead of listening to understand the other. This has been a 5 year journey.

The first thing I learned is that while I felt insecure I could not put energy into listening. I had to be a happy person before I could prioritise others. Next I learned that when I am around family I have a history with them and it's very hard to change how I relate to them and start listening deeply. When I first met my wife I put effort into listening from the beginning and it's much easier as a habit.

When I do listen well it's a unique feeling of supporting someone, and they might not realise it. Often when deeply listening I can respond better in the conversation and I know what to say (this was difficult before because of autism).

I wonder what others here have spent time developing.

I also deliberately trained myself to be a good listener. In my case, I ended up lucking into a workshop on it and I very quickly realized how sorely it was missing in my family of origin, how much damage and hurt this caused to everyone, and how crucially important it was to develop as a skill. I also began to prioritize it in friends and partners, and I find it deeply painful when someone I'm close to doesn't value it as a skill and doesn't think our interactions are worthwhile enough to exert the effort.

What else did I deliberately prioritize among the soft skills -- Ni. The ability to be in touch with, and consciously aware of/mindful of all my inner bullshit, even if it's difficult to be with and even if it's bullshit.

I prioritized not being ego-driven in relationships. Not being vindictive. Not doing so well with being non-judgmental even though I strive for it. I won't be judgmental when it comes to tastes, preferences, lgbt-alphabet soup status, age, different priorities in life, etc., but I am still very judgmental when people -are- ego-driven, when they're about status and one-upmanship, when they build themselves up by looking down on others. Narcissistic people, people who won't hesitate to impose on others and use them, that sort of thing -- if you're like that, I judge the fuck out of you and I think you're scum, even if you think you're a smart social mastermind who gets what he wants cause he's powerful like that. I judge you if you lack empathy and compassion and if you don't value authentic connectedness. Etcetera. 'Guess we know what my shadow is

I think you've picked an interesting lens to view your journey from.

I've paid relatively little attention to my psychology to this point and don't have the vocabulary to talk about how that part of might have grown/adapted through the process. I remember a few points I labeled epiphanies along the way. First was when I repurposed an effort that was rooted in fear (making a plan to "survive" a long-term disruption in employment income) into a positive plan to achieve some of the dreams I'd had as a young person--which grew into my version of ER. The next was wrestling with the question, "What is enough?". As is my habit, I over complicated it, but it was a good exercise for beginning to understand myself. It led to thinking about things like, what if anything, distinguished contentedness and happiness; and what the relationship between happiness and fun might be. Those are difficult things for a mind like mine to wrestle with, but eventually I realized that for me a strong sense of contentedness is the fertile field where happiness could grow, and that contentedness or even outright happiness was more important to me than continually "having fun". They aren't mutually exclusive but aren't synonymous in my mind. I can't point to a specific moment but along the way I learned to stop seeing through a lens of having or lacking this or that, and began to see a synergy between simplicity (i.e., lack of clutter: physical, mental, and emotional) and contentedness.

In the end I didn't blossom into a hardcore ere-er. I did move a long way in that direction from my mid-career aspirations of just being a typical mid- to upper-middle class retiree. I can't say what, if any, psychological changes I underwent, but I had significant mindset changes. In the end I've sought a balance rather than forcing myself to adopt a solution that follows from one ideology or another.

Even if you're not able to achieve profound internal development in a predetermined direction, just making a fair assessment of your internal workings as an individual will be a very good guide to any forward-looking endeavors. I'd also say that understanding yourself accurately (to the degree you can) will almost certainly lead to growth if you can keep the negative self-talk in its proper place. The conscious mind often seems to fixate on desires that work against holistic well being.

It's interesting you mentioned you family's handyman as a hero/role model. My maternal grandfather was that to me. He grew up on a farm and even though he had some success as a draftsman-engineer (without any academic credentials--you could do that in the pre-WWII era) he was also an accomplished handyman DIY-er and did an admirable job being frugal and judicious without being a miser.

Good luck on your journey.

thai_tong wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 12, 2025 1:34 am

When I first met my wife I put effort into listening from the beginning and it's much easier as a habit.

I'm sure she's very happy about that and it will serve you well over the course of your marriage. But just to be clear moving forward, when she enters the "car is making this clanking type of sound" territory, and she starts with that onomatopoeia nonsense, the first stated protocol of the eternal agreement within the universal brotherhood of husbands kicks in, and you immediately commence feigning at that point. Cause if you can't fix that shit yourself, your mechanic will let us know, and we will find you.

IlliniDave wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 12, 2025 6:14 am

The next was wrestling with the question, "What is enough?". As is my habit, I over complicated it, but it was a good exercise for beginning to understand myself. It led to thinking about things like, what if anything, distinguished contentedness and happiness; and what the relationship between happiness and fun might be. Those are difficult things for a mind like mine to wrestle with, but eventually I realized that for me a strong sense of contentedness is the fertile field where happiness could grow, and that contentedness or even outright happiness was more important to me than continually "having fun". They aren't mutually exclusive but aren't synonymous in my mind. I can't point to a specific moment but along the way I learned to stop seeing through a lens of having or lacking this or that, and began to see a synergy between simplicity (i.e., lack of clutter: physical, mental, and emotional) and contentedness.

In the consumerist world contentedness is the one emotion that can't be monetized. I feel like society used to appreciate contentment more. We collectively lost our way after relentless marketing campaigns told us that fun and excitement are the way to happiness; whether that's paying for a bungee jump or for the latest VR headset. It is hard to break out of that mindset when fun and excitement are wrapped up with wholesome ideas like friendship or curiosity, and it takes an epiphany or a lot of effort to untangle that set of values and take what's wholesome.

Although we can't give ourselves epiphanies, probably the best way to adopt new values is to surround yourself with people who have those values.

thai_tong wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 13, 2025 1:55 am

In the consumerist world contentedness is the one emotion that can't be monetized. I feel like society used to appreciate contentment more. We collectively lost our way after relentless marketing campaigns told us that fun and excitement are the way to happiness; whether that's paying for a bungee jump or for the latest VR headset. It is hard to break out of that mindset when fun and excitement are wrapped up with wholesome ideas like friendship or curiosity, and it takes an epiphany or a lot of effort to untangle that set of values and take what's wholesome.

Although we can't give ourselves epiphanies, probably the best way to adopt new values is to surround yourself with people who have those values.

We may be using different definitions, but to me the content emotion is a huge part of what gets sold when it comes to VR, streaming apps, fast shipping, etc. So many services people pay for are not really about excitement or happiness, just making them content and unwilling to put effort into changing anything. On the other hand the feeling I would say is not well monetized is boredom. Being bored is a pretty good way to get yourself to do something. At least for me boredom is one the better motivators, maybe not everyone. But, forcing myself to just stop doing anything and just sit and feel bored (not trying to meditate, just trying to get bored) has led to some useful changes in my life on several occasions.

In terms of being good at listening, I put some effort into learning how to "actively listen" and that seems to have helped me a lot. Some examples include repeating what the other person said, body language, interrupting to ask them to clarify something, etc. First it helped me have something specific to try and improve, whereas "improve listening" was too vague for me. It also seems to affect other people, they enjoy talking to me more. I think it also helped me actually listen to others better because I cannot just wait for my turn to talk, I need to actually pay attention to others for me to actively listen.

thai_tong wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 13, 2025 1:55 am

In the consumerist world contentedness is the one emotion that can't be monetized. I feel like society used to appreciate contentment more. We collectively lost our way after relentless marketing campaigns told us that fun and excitement are the way to happiness; whether that's paying for a bungee jump or for the latest VR headset. It is hard to break out of that mindset when fun and excitement are wrapped up with wholesome ideas like friendship or curiosity, and it takes an epiphany or a lot of effort to untangle that set of values and take what's wholesome.

Although we can't give ourselves epiphanies, probably the best way to adopt new values is to surround yourself with people who have those values.

You're right about epiphanies, you kind of have to open yourself up to them by thinking outside of whatever box constrains your current thoughts. In my case where the transition concerning the birth of an ER plan came, I had to open my mind to options outside of "how can I hunker down and create the best defensive position possible." But even the opening wasn't a conscious decision. I still remember the morning I had it. I was doing parametric analyses to answer the question, "How long do I have to avoid being laid off before I have enough to keep the house until I was old enough to start collecting retirement income (at which point I'd judged I'd be fine)? when I found the crossover point My first thought was, "Cool, I have the answer." Then within a few minutes implications began to pop up in my mind. One was the question, "What if this were the plan rather than just a backup plan?

I suppose you could cultivate new values based on the people around you, but to do that consciously you'd have to know what the new values are, at which point you can just adopt them. Seeking out people with the same values could certainly help with refining them and provide ideas how to act on them. I developed an appetite for ER in isolation, and because it emerged from an effort to survive loss of income, the idea of employing frugality and thrift was already baked into my mental milieu at the time. But following up on those two ideas by interacting with others interested in retiring early opened up many possibilities to me, but didn't necessarily change any of my values.

I'm not sure that any human emotion can really be monetized. I'm assuming by that you essentially mean "purchased". But for me contentedness did imply a certain level of financial resources since I'm not really yearning to be a self-sufficient homesteader or live in some sort of a commune-like situation. I used the terminology from a book called Your Money or Your Life and identified "needs" (food, shelter, warmth, medical care, etc.), comforts (a TV, refrigerator, computer, phone, etc.), and "luxuries" (a nice guitar and amp, a fishing pole, some exercise equipment, etc). I am pretty typical in that I identified what it would take to not have insecurity about needs, substantial latitude to include a few comforts, and enough that the occasional luxury was not out of the question. Much of that was done through visualization but I also conducted experiments. I left my air conditioning off for an entire summer. Disconnected my cable for several months, washed clothes by hand and hung them to dry (that experiment didn't last long, lol) restricted myself to eating from the weekly buy-one-get-one-free items at my local grocery store, things like that. It gave me a pretty good sense of how much money I'd need to spend on an ongoing basis to avoid feeling miserable. I learned there were many things I could do without, but doing so caused a perceived quality of life decline. Being the most frugal guy on my block was fine, but I never aspired being the most frugal guy on the planet. Being frugal wasn't really a standalone value, but a tool to achieve things I actually valued.

IlliniDave wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 13, 2025 6:48 pm

I'm not sure that any human emotion can really be monetized. I'm assuming by that you essentially mean "purchased". But for me contentedness did imply a certain level of financial resources since I'm not really yearning to be a self-sufficient homesteader or live in some sort of a commune-like situation. I used the terminology from a book called Your Money or Your Life and identified "needs" (food, shelter, warmth, medical care, etc.), comforts (a TV, refrigerator, computer, phone, etc.), and "luxuries" (a nice guitar and amp, a fishing pole, some exercise equipment, etc). I am pretty typical in that I identified what it would take to not have insecurity about needs, substantial latitude to include a few comforts, and enough that the occasional luxury was not out of the question. Much of that was done through visualization but I also conducted experiments. I left my air conditioning off for an entire summer. Disconnected my cable for several months, washed clothes by hand and hung them to dry (that experiment didn't last long, lol) restricted myself to eating from the weekly buy-one-get-one-free items at my local grocery store, things like that. It gave me a pretty good sense of how much money I'd need to spend on an ongoing basis to avoid feeling miserable. I learned there were many things I could do without, but doing so caused a perceived quality of life decline. Being the most frugal guy on my block was fine, but I never aspired being the most frugal guy on the planet. Being frugal wasn't really a standalone value, but a tool to achieve things I actually valued.

This is one heck of a reflection @IlliniDave. It seems like it would be obvious to most of us that just by being in these forums we would have similar thoughts and have tried similar things but when you see another forum member spell out things that have happened in your own ERE flight path or thought about it still seems so surreal to me.

I read Axel Heyst's book Deep Response: An Emergency Education in Post-Consumer Praxis. What I most appreciate was his attitude of getting excited about life, "stoke" as he calls it, because the FIRE community often focused on getting financial independence but not what to do afterwards.

In the past I had bad experiences of getting fired and long term unemployment, I never wanted to repeat that. So I also had the mindset of FIRE as a way of seeking "freedom from" relying on employment. Now I have several years expenses saved I feel secure and can shift my mindset to FIRE as "freedom to" live a good life. Axel Heyst's book came at the right time as inspiration for me.

He also has a massive emphasis on environment and climate change, more than any other FIRE blogger. I really liked his attitude that we can't make modern consumerism sustainable so the best thing is to live a lifestyle of non-consumerism and let people copy that lifestyle when they realise that a consumerist lifestyle is becoming less and less feasible. This feels empowering.

Like Axelheyst I am getting stoked about what I can do with my life, and the best part is that most of these are things I can start doing now, I don't have to wait until after quitting work. In Ireland as soon as I have had a driving license for 2 years I can be a volunteer paramedic in my local area (get called out as a first responder to do basic paramedic stuff until the ambulance arrives). I have other dreams of things to do which I can start developing the skills for now, and maybe when I quit work I will be able to do them. I feel great for building the life that I want.

thai_tong wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 19, 2025 7:55 am

What I most appreciate was his attitude of getting excited about life, "stoke" as he calls it, because the FIRE community often focused on getting financial independence but not what to do afterwards.

It's been a very useful concept which can be activated anywhere on this journey (and whatever style of ERE). Focusing on values within has been key to getting things going for me. There were some internal obstacles that made this difficult, but I've worked through at least some of them over time.

thai_tong wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 19, 2025 7:55 am

In the past I had bad experiences of getting fired and long term unemployment, I never wanted to repeat that. So I also had the mindset of FIRE as a way of seeking "freedom from" relying on employment. Now I have several years expenses saved I feel secure and can shift my mindset to FIRE as "freedom to" live a good life.

At first, I too was motivated by mainly "freedom from". In my case, it came about from years of stable employment at an unfulfilling job. I noticed "freedom to" becoming more salient the more years of expenses I had saved. Ultimately it added up and remains some combination of both. Glad that I started working on "freedom to" in the middle rather than waiting to FI. Otherwise I might not have adjusted to the job transitions/breaks that followed.

thai_tong wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 19, 2025 7:55 am

the best thing is to live a lifestyle of non-consumerism and let people copy that lifestyle when they realise that a consumerist lifestyle is becoming less and less feasible. This feels empowering.

That would be an interesting scenario. Or if a high cost AI singularity dystopia happens instead I think I'm okay with that too if I just do weird alt-things with a few other people.

thai_tong wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 19, 2025 7:55 am

I have other dreams of things to do which I can start developing the skills for now, and maybe when I quit work I will be able to do them. I feel great for building the life that I want.

That's awesome. What skills would you want to develop if you'd want to share?

bookworm wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 20, 2025 2:32 pm

It's been a very useful concept which can be activated anywhere on this journey (and whatever style of ERE). Focusing on values within has been key to getting things going for me. There were some internal obstacles that made this difficult, but I've worked through at least some of them over time.

Living according to your values sounds like the most natural thing but because of all the conditioning we often lose sight of values. When making big decisions about what to focus on I find it helpful to take some quiet time and go with my gut, what it feels right to do. Instead of actively thinking so much and trying to solve it as if my life is an optmiztion problem.

What were some of the internal obstacles that made it hard to focus on your values?

In terms of my own dreams, I had depression when I was younger and mental health means a lot to me. I am fluent in a language from a country where talking about mental health is taboo. My dream is to do a campaign for mental health in the country. I am developing skills for interviewing people and talking to a camera. This country has given me a lot and I want to give something back, this is the best combination of my interests and skills

Hey Thai, looking forward to following along with your journey! I am planning on settling down in Ireland in the long term, hopefully I'll be there in a couple of years. It's a wonderful country for an ERE lifestyle, I think it's really well positioned to ride out any climate and social challenges that this century might throw at Europe. I am very optimistic about the country and find it to be very equitable and peaceful relative to most places in the world. The access to nature is also top notch.

Are you very interested in the financial independence aspect of FIRE (a la 4% rule) or will you be going for something more skills based and less purely financial like the classic ERE approach? I only ask as I'm currently debating how to structure investments to not fall foul of the punitive ETF tax rates and deemed disposal rules.

thai_tong wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 22, 2025 5:10 am

Instead of actively thinking so much and trying to solve it as if my life is an optmiztion problem.

Hello, analysis paralysis. Yeah, I definitely tend to make decisions now using my inner voice / "teacher" more than formal optimization. I've found that the latter is still useful though, in its place!

thai_tong wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 22, 2025 5:10 am

What were some of the internal obstacles that made it hard to focus on your values?

There was some stuff from childhood that was traumatic that I consider private. But part of the issue was that I had very strong values, even at an early age - but that was considered threatening to others. I ended up having a difficult time fitting in with my family of origin and nearby community for this reason. To get by, I used an high degree of social masking which was emotionally draining. I get the sense now that some of my choices relating to jobs and living circumstances put me in the same basic situation in different environment.

The religious system that I grew up with (and agreed with for a time) claimed that those who had different values were ignorant and evil people, so that created more self-doubt than there might have been otherwise. There was also the fear of imagined external consequences instilled at a young age that kind of hijacked my nervous system, resulting in negative feelings that even if my values were right, I would be punished for having them.

Anyways...long story short, it took some introspection to get back in touch with my own values and, more importantly, to be able to act on them in a healthy, adult way with commitment.

thai_tong wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 22, 2025 5:10 am

In terms of my own dreams...

I admire your approach and mindset on this. Looking forward to how it will all unfold for you.

I am similarly curious about your relationship to FIRE paradigm at this point in your life.

I got married a few months ago and it has been a nice feeling of security knowing there is someone to rely on.

We had a simple wedding with no guests and it was very meaningful to us. Talking to a lot of people about this, I found so many who said they didn't actually want a big wedding but did it anyway because of pressure from family. This sparked a few wholesome conversations.

Both DW and I dislike the wedding industry. DW felt the pressures and expectation to do everything according to the template wedding. Meanwhile, I don't like that everything is marketed as personalised (you choose the music, flowers, rings, etc.) but it's not really personalised if we are all following the same template.

I want to keep the perspective that I am choosing this life purposefully and there are good reasons why I chose this over every other attractive life. I have written a few letters about it and I use www.futureme.org which will email me the letters after a few years.

Already a lot of people in work joked about how I will resent my wife in 5-10 years. I find that they want to have everything even when it's incompatible - they want people to respect them as the family man and they want to drop all obligations and go traveling in Thailand, they want someone who will take care of them when they're old but they don't want to accept that their wife going through menopause means dwindling sex drive.

I would love to hear what tips others have about keeping the perspective on why you got married and staying satisfied with your decision.

Me and my wife took the big step and paid off the mortgage on the apartment. She was very fortunate to have bought in 2020 before we met. I wanted to make a big contribution to the mortgage to feel like we have equally invested in the property. She also wanted to pay off some extra and together we had enough to pay it off completely. What we did may not be optimal* but this made sense for us.

My 2 good friends bought big new houses and showed me around. Since I grew up in a big house sometimes I get FOMO for things like having more rooms, decoration and storage space. Ultimately I know that these things won't make me happier. To follow ERE lifestyle we have to be so independent, it takes a lot to constantly go against the grain and it can be isolating. It would help if I had more friends that appreciate simple living, although it's so hard to find people like that.

*In Ireland is tax efficient to buy a huge house although this will surely lead to lifestyle inflation.

thai_tong wrote: ↑

Sun May 11, 2025 1:08 pm

Both DW and I dislike the wedding industry. DW felt the pressures and expectation to do everything according to the template wedding. Meanwhile, I don't like that everything is marketed as personalised (you choose the music, flowers, rings, etc.) but it's not really personalised if we are all following the same template.

I remember reading that the amount you spend on your wedding is correlated with the likelihood of divorce.