Do you anticipate the realities of becoming older?
The costs associated with it?
The processes of letting go?
What are you learning to deal with ill health in older age?
When "dying" does becomes "something one actively engages in" as opposed to "something that happens to you," I would take a guess that the ERE community would take a different approach than mainstream American culture; but it seems there has been no discussion about this, so maybe not.
https://eolcoregon.org/end-of-life-choi ... king-vsed/
Death and Dying
Re: Death and Dying
Planning for old age is relatively easy and I guess comes almost naturally to most ERE people. Prevention, testament, living in an environment compatible with old age, ...
Planning for the end of one's body as a living organism on the other hand... There's only so much one can do. Planning for euthanasia on the loss of critical physical functions is relatively easy in many places. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_euthanasia . If the end of the game involves loss of critical brain functions, in countries like the Netherlands, it's possible to plan for dementia or alzheimer and write out a legal request for euthanasia in case this occurs together with disproportionate suffering.
Planning for the end of one's body as a living organism on the other hand... There's only so much one can do. Planning for euthanasia on the loss of critical physical functions is relatively easy in many places. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_euthanasia . If the end of the game involves loss of critical brain functions, in countries like the Netherlands, it's possible to plan for dementia or alzheimer and write out a legal request for euthanasia in case this occurs together with disproportionate suffering.
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IlliniDave
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Re: Death and Dying
I'm already getting there!
Intellectually, I understand some of the realities of advancing age and padded my nest egg accordingly. The other way I am addressing future health is by present lifestyle (nutrition and movement/exercise). The time between the end of my healthspan and end of my lifespan is the challenging part and I want to shorten that.
Beyond being able to run thought experiments, I don't think the reality of possible decrepitude and very old age it has hit me in a visceral way yet.
I've talked about the topic in my journal thread on occasion, but not in a systematic way. I currently spend a lot of time looking after my dad who is in his mid-80s and has been having memory issues for a few years now. But there are a lot of other things that go with it. It's difficult for him to bend over and tie his shoes, or thread a belt through his pants. When he descends stairs he goes backwards because he doesn't trust his balance. He drives very little, can't do his own shopping effectively, and this year we're going to hire someone on his behalf to do the maintenance on his small yard. He can't do any more than token gardening. The list goes on. It gives me a mental checklist of the kinds of things to beware of but we all age and decline differently.
Death itself I don't spend a lot of time specifically contemplating. I don't have a lot of bravado about it. I don't plan to participate in an active way except at some point to capitulate to it.
Intellectually, I understand some of the realities of advancing age and padded my nest egg accordingly. The other way I am addressing future health is by present lifestyle (nutrition and movement/exercise). The time between the end of my healthspan and end of my lifespan is the challenging part and I want to shorten that.
Beyond being able to run thought experiments, I don't think the reality of possible decrepitude and very old age it has hit me in a visceral way yet.
I've talked about the topic in my journal thread on occasion, but not in a systematic way. I currently spend a lot of time looking after my dad who is in his mid-80s and has been having memory issues for a few years now. But there are a lot of other things that go with it. It's difficult for him to bend over and tie his shoes, or thread a belt through his pants. When he descends stairs he goes backwards because he doesn't trust his balance. He drives very little, can't do his own shopping effectively, and this year we're going to hire someone on his behalf to do the maintenance on his small yard. He can't do any more than token gardening. The list goes on. It gives me a mental checklist of the kinds of things to beware of but we all age and decline differently.
Death itself I don't spend a lot of time specifically contemplating. I don't have a lot of bravado about it. I don't plan to participate in an active way except at some point to capitulate to it.
Re: Death and Dying
Dying is easy. Dying takes care of you. Dying takes care of itself. This living into your 90's thing worries me more. Warren Buffet out there like he's Mr. Saturday Night. What the fuck am I going to do with myself at 93 if I still have all my faculties. My Ouija Board said I'm going to die at 67 which is like nine years out and it certainly feels like I'm going to die in 2033 but what if I don't and I end up living for another 25 years after that. I have no kids. I have no friends. I hate old people. Christ, what a nightmare.
Re: Death and Dying
I have entered some time ago the fourth quadrant (75-100) of my life. Brimming with health and fit.I find it exciting. In this quadrant the end of my life is hidden.I do not know how and when. That is interesting , but it is only one part of being an exciting time
Other exciting parts:
Love, friendships en real life human contacts
Study, new skills, maintaining existing skills
Changing or staying where I live in more than one place
Nutrition, rest, fitness, outdoor, mental health
Partnership with DW and others
Testator preparation and good riddance of stuff
Go with the electronic flow. Keeping away from media.
To foresee the unforseen, is that possible?
@loutfard mentioned some essential things I have to do about euthanasia in cases he describes.
Other exciting parts:
Love, friendships en real life human contacts
Study, new skills, maintaining existing skills
Changing or staying where I live in more than one place
Nutrition, rest, fitness, outdoor, mental health
Partnership with DW and others
Testator preparation and good riddance of stuff
Go with the electronic flow. Keeping away from media.
To foresee the unforseen, is that possible?
@loutfard mentioned some essential things I have to do about euthanasia in cases he describes.
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jacob
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- Contact:
Re: Death and Dying
I'm still just middle-aged. However, when I was younger, I had the benefit of having regular long conversations with a middle-aged athlete while commuting to weekend warrior activities. I'm only going to be repeating what you already see in several journals, but...
- An athletic middle-aged person still outperforms average people half their age. Strength, power, endurance, stamina, (Non-athletes pass their peak after age 25.)
- The difference between "training" and "not-training" or "ice cream" or "lentils" has grown rather marked by age 40. IOW, adult lifestyle choices begin to manifest their consequences after 20 years.
- Permanent "stupid" injuries begin to add up. Maybe you did something to your elbow at age 32, something to your back at age 36, and something to your knee at age 42. Those are still with you. It might be wise to avoid going too hard in your younger years, lest you end up on painkillers. Maybe do not play professional or college football.
- Recovery becomes harder. You can no longer rely on "your immune system" or "sleeping it off" to fix dumb life choices. The cost of mistakes increases. So if you want to keep playing at a high level, you need to think harder/better than when you were young when it was easier to "get avoid with stupid". Hopefully, you have the experience to do so.
OTOH, if the standard alternative is to practice decrepitude and see three different doctors per year for the last 30 years on one's life is the standard alternative, ... I'm not convinced how that would be a better choice. This is what I'm starting to see going on around me for my age cohort now. I'm trying to avoid it, but the side-effect of that is that I never get to practice it myself. I'm thoroughly unprepared for dealing with being unhealthy. The irony is thick. OTOH, practice makes perfect and so the people pursuing that path don't seem to mind---or at least they're putting on a good face. Rock and a hard place.
Ideally, I'd like to die doing something trivially heroic after a long life. Like breaking my neck saving a cat from the lowest branch in a tree at age 95.
Re: Death and Dying
Macro:
I really like Peter Attia's thought process about thinking backward from your "Last Decade".
How do you want your last decade to look? Who are you with, what do you do, how are you limited?
One must be realistic; we're not dreaming, we're planning.
From that decade, one plans backwards. If I want to be able to row on the water during the last decade of my life, what does the previous decade need to look like? Literally, what are my performance metrics (erg time/200m, time/500m, body weight, barbell row programming)?
And the decade before then. And the decade before then.
If I know the downward slope of mental and physical capacity, I need to work backward up the slope, and likewise, I need to elevate my current position high enough that my decline gracefully lands me into my ideal last decade. Peter's book "Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity" talks in detail about these slopes and how we can influence them.
These are personal but highly empirical questions, with specific plans and strategies one can implement today to ensure 1) we're ascending high enough to meet the demands of our last decade and 2) our ramp down is maintained appropriately.
As such, like @Jacob mentioned, if you expect to be physical in your last decade, special care to avoid traumatic injury is important.
As a personal anecdote, I've stopped doing maximum-load strength training because I need my knees and back to be able to be hiking long trails in my last decade. I quit alcohol almost completely to ensure dementia doesn't take hold early. I've considered taking neuroprotective supplements (piracetam+choline) to lower inflammation in my brain. I'm interesting in PCSK9 inhibitors to reduce atherosclerotic plaque build up in my arteries, given I have many decades to go. My sleep is absolutely awful right now, a huge impact on dementia -- time to work on that. I want my last decade to be full of family, friends, writing, music so best to start working on these now.
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Micro:
For me, living a long life, phenomenologically, appears to be about reducing stimulation. Being bored, aimlessly mulling over ideas, just listening to the birds or the sounds of the shovel from my kid playing in the sand. These activities feel longer; subjectivity is not time-linear.
Meditation helps with this but, ime, reducing stimulation has a larger impact. So I've quit music while cooking, podcasts while walking my kid, a background game of Slay the Spire while I'm doing a routine, mindless sales call. It kinda sucks. But time passing feels slower, and from that place, I have more attention for the richness of literally just colors, of sounds, of smells, of the coos and murmurs of my son experiencing all of it.
It's beautiful.
I really like Peter Attia's thought process about thinking backward from your "Last Decade".
How do you want your last decade to look? Who are you with, what do you do, how are you limited?
One must be realistic; we're not dreaming, we're planning.
From that decade, one plans backwards. If I want to be able to row on the water during the last decade of my life, what does the previous decade need to look like? Literally, what are my performance metrics (erg time/200m, time/500m, body weight, barbell row programming)?
And the decade before then. And the decade before then.
If I know the downward slope of mental and physical capacity, I need to work backward up the slope, and likewise, I need to elevate my current position high enough that my decline gracefully lands me into my ideal last decade. Peter's book "Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity" talks in detail about these slopes and how we can influence them.
These are personal but highly empirical questions, with specific plans and strategies one can implement today to ensure 1) we're ascending high enough to meet the demands of our last decade and 2) our ramp down is maintained appropriately.
As such, like @Jacob mentioned, if you expect to be physical in your last decade, special care to avoid traumatic injury is important.
As a personal anecdote, I've stopped doing maximum-load strength training because I need my knees and back to be able to be hiking long trails in my last decade. I quit alcohol almost completely to ensure dementia doesn't take hold early. I've considered taking neuroprotective supplements (piracetam+choline) to lower inflammation in my brain. I'm interesting in PCSK9 inhibitors to reduce atherosclerotic plaque build up in my arteries, given I have many decades to go. My sleep is absolutely awful right now, a huge impact on dementia -- time to work on that. I want my last decade to be full of family, friends, writing, music so best to start working on these now.
\\
Micro:
For me, living a long life, phenomenologically, appears to be about reducing stimulation. Being bored, aimlessly mulling over ideas, just listening to the birds or the sounds of the shovel from my kid playing in the sand. These activities feel longer; subjectivity is not time-linear.
Meditation helps with this but, ime, reducing stimulation has a larger impact. So I've quit music while cooking, podcasts while walking my kid, a background game of Slay the Spire while I'm doing a routine, mindless sales call. It kinda sucks. But time passing feels slower, and from that place, I have more attention for the richness of literally just colors, of sounds, of smells, of the coos and murmurs of my son experiencing all of it.
It's beautiful.
Re: Death and Dying
I'd certainly consider checking out early if the forecast wasn't looking good. I'd like to think I'd do that with careful consideration of the impact to everyone and döstädning completed and everything. But it's easy to say that when your fit and healthy. Mum went from being fit and healthy to permanently disabled within a few hours.
Practically, prepare your finances, wills and POAs decades in advance. Firewall assets against any stupid decisions a deteriorated you might do. Have some trusted social capital nearby.
Practically, prepare your finances, wills and POAs decades in advance. Firewall assets against any stupid decisions a deteriorated you might do. Have some trusted social capital nearby.
Re: Death and Dying
After cleaning up my parents place this weekend I realized something awful switches off when your folks die. I mentioned it to the old guy next door and he said “Sclass, I went through that too. It’s because you are next.”
Re: Death and Dying
My sister and I have started to do the same. It's the house we grew up in and every inch of the house and garden is saturated in 40 years of memories. It's very bittersweet. Satisfying and awful at the same time.
I was speaking to one of their neighbours who I've known all my life. He's the last of the neighbours still around who we knew growing up and is now in his early 80s. I've always thought of him as an old man but terrifyingly I now realise when I first knew him as a child he was the same age as I am now.
Similarly in the nursing home today I saw some residents watching MTV 80s. I thought this was an odd choice until it occurred to me they would have been in their 30s in the 1980s. Young attractive females dancing on the ceiling, now dementia ridden with catheters and leaking bowls.
Where's my dad was 6 years old when Hitler shot himself, something I've always found vaguely extraordinary. Older dads kinda timewarp things.
Re: Death and Dying
@Sclass and @chenda
I appreciate you sharing your experience with the mixed feelings of clearing out your folks’ houses and wish you peace as you continue the process. It certainly gives me pause, as it’s most likely not an “if” scenario but “when.”
@jesmine
A few things that color my perspective:
1) I grew up on a farm and intimately saw the cycle of life. This taught me that death is part of life.
2) My dad died in when he was 37 and was nine. This taught me life is uncertain.
3) My daughter died when she was four. This taught me life isn’t fair.
4) I had a great-grandmother who lived to be 107 years old and only struggled with poor health the last couple years. This taught me to invest in myself because life can be long.
The older I get, the more I witness death and know it’ll be my turn at some point. As a 55 year old, I am middle-aged, realizing that I could be actually be at my relative old age. I think of that every night when I go to sleep, just after reviewing my day and considering any needed course corrections.
I appreciate you sharing your experience with the mixed feelings of clearing out your folks’ houses and wish you peace as you continue the process. It certainly gives me pause, as it’s most likely not an “if” scenario but “when.”
@jesmine
A few things that color my perspective:
1) I grew up on a farm and intimately saw the cycle of life. This taught me that death is part of life.
2) My dad died in when he was 37 and was nine. This taught me life is uncertain.
3) My daughter died when she was four. This taught me life isn’t fair.
4) I had a great-grandmother who lived to be 107 years old and only struggled with poor health the last couple years. This taught me to invest in myself because life can be long.
The older I get, the more I witness death and know it’ll be my turn at some point. As a 55 year old, I am middle-aged, realizing that I could be actually be at my relative old age. I think of that every night when I go to sleep, just after reviewing my day and considering any needed course corrections.
Re: Death and Dying
@Frita yeah having animals as a young kid shook me up too. My mom was the 4H mom in our neighborhood. I saw our (pet) chickens, goats and rabbits die by either sickness or slaughter. My dad was brutal…he let us watch the pet fight for its life then we would be forced to smile while eating dinner to show gratitude. I think I was five or six when it came to me. I was all alone in the garden staring at a drippy irrigation line and it clicked…I was no different than an animal and I would eventually die if I let enough drips fall. I started crying and screaming and my mom came out to comfort me. I vividly recall asking her “am I going to die too?” She laughed and calmed me down.
Life ain’t fair. My sister passed when she was sixteen. I was ten. We were playing when she fell over from cardiac arrest. I had to explain in detail to the cops what happened. She had a congenital heart condition. We had been warned but I was living in denial like any ten year old would have. One of the items I’m reluctant to toss at the house is a half finished hooked rug she’d been working on. It’s an ugly trace and knot craft she learned in the hospital. The rows just stop at this bird’s middle. Mom kept it close from 1980 on. Brutal. Whenever I think things are bad I remember the great life I’ve had since 1980. My sister would have killed for my 55 years.
Burying your kid is the worst thing ever. I’m so sorry.
Life ain’t fair. My sister passed when she was sixteen. I was ten. We were playing when she fell over from cardiac arrest. I had to explain in detail to the cops what happened. She had a congenital heart condition. We had been warned but I was living in denial like any ten year old would have. One of the items I’m reluctant to toss at the house is a half finished hooked rug she’d been working on. It’s an ugly trace and knot craft she learned in the hospital. The rows just stop at this bird’s middle. Mom kept it close from 1980 on. Brutal. Whenever I think things are bad I remember the great life I’ve had since 1980. My sister would have killed for my 55 years.
Burying your kid is the worst thing ever. I’m so sorry.
Re: Death and Dying
Flowers seem to help in dealing with death. Flowers live for a week or two and in that time remind you of spring, summer, autumn and winter.
Exactly! Seeing people from your youth brings up surprising behavior. When I met an old teacher, I fell back to school behavior, assuming my old teacher was an authority, and feeling the urge to raise my fingers to ask if I could visit the toilet It felt like time travel.
Over here those stories are common in the older generation. It's something that was expected of fathers. My grandfather, who was humble and wouldn't harm anyone, slaughtered my father's rabbit, and my grandmother cooked it for Christmas. So they must've remembered it as a valuable lesson from their own youth that they would not withhold from their children. I imagine something clicks in a child after that experience.
Re: Death and Dying
In my 30s I guess it's a way off, but some things I think about:
- Maintaining strong habits of fitness and diet has paid off so far, and likely will in future.
- By maintaining the habits mentioned above, I'm probably better off even if I still wind up with health issues.
- Mindfulness and meditation are good practices to develop for dealing with pain - emotional or physical; I'm reading Kabat-Zinn and Suzuki on this
- Learning every day is a true joy especially now I have time to do it post-FIRE. I can't imagine ever getting bored, there is so much to learn. And so much depth to every subject. Even to this day new discoveries are being made in science, math. And the culture/music/art world is continually evolving.
- Stoicism seems to offer a healthy lens through which to approach change, loss, uncertainty. “If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment.”
- Certain kinds of communities such as faith based and interest based can offer a virtuous cycle of giving back and being cared for.
- Based on the healthy older people I've met and read about, healthy ageing seems possible and it seems like a lot is within the individual's power to control - staying mentally and physically active, avoiding alcohol/smoke, treating your body well, preferring quality relationships/friendships, staying positive
- From what I've read, death is an easier experience when accepted