What doesn't kill you might make you dumber?

[jacob]

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... cores-are/

Mild and resolved case: -3 IQ points (on average)
Shortness of breath: -6 IQ points (on average)
Admitted to hospital: -9 IQ points (on average)

(based on a dozen studies with a millionish sample size.)

(alternative hypothesis: maybe standard tests didn't capture the entirety of intelligence? If so, these studies just show how those who avoided getting infected were smart enough to avoid getting it (an IQ test on its own) as opposed to just passing analytical tests and vice versa. While their smarts wouldn't register on a simple 2 3 4 6 8 12 ? test, it would register on tests requiring more generalized IQ if such were used/available.)

It remains unclear how permanent this effect is ... insofar it actually is an effect. Regardless, it's definitely worth paying attention to. One of the few risks of ERE is losing intellectual capacity. ERE does require the ability to think.

On an individual level, 10 points is the difference between levels (engineer vs mechanic vs technician vs janitor), and 3--5 points may be the difference between promotion and stagnation. On a societal level even a few points of difference is a big deal because of the extreme tail effect. Shifting down the average intelligence is not a big deal for the median but shifting the tails substantially increases the number of dumb people while reducing the number of smart people in ways that will be culturally game changing.

I hesitate to bring this up due to the political tangents and derailment, but... if you managed to avoid getting infected while living in an area where most people where infected, you might enjoy a relatively significant intellectual boost for as long as it'll last.

[Slevin]

I have no easy way to judge mental capabilities, but I definitely have a lot more trouble remembering words now than I did previously (and more brain fog sometimes). I'm not exactly sure if that's a COVID thing, or a concussion / brain damage thing. I definitely never recovered fully from covid in the physical capacity. Mostly felt in the degredation of recovery capacity and work capacity more than raw strength / etc. I could also just be getting old

[okumurahata]

Are there examples in the opposite direction?

For instance:

Daily running: +9 IQ
Weekly running: +6 IQ
Monthly running: +3 IQ

Also, perhaps someone could elaborate further, but I feel that since I’ve had a smartphone, I forget things more easily, my mind goes blank more frequently, and I feel less sharp than when I was 25. It could also be that graduating from university and entering the corporate world leaves you somewhat less sharp (going from Calculus to Excel meme).

I also have the feeling that if I were to go back to university, I wouldn’t pass a single subject. By the way, it’s one of my recurrent nightmares, dreaming that I have a subject left to get the degree…

[jacob]

Are there examples in the opposite direction?

Regularly engaging in creative problem solving boosts intelligence. It has to be uncomfortably hard. This means learning new things, not just repeating or improving on old lessons. Most people stop doing that after graduating college.

[Sclass]

The brain is plastic. I watched my father, grandfather and uncle recover from strokes and creuzfeldt-Jakob disease. In each case they all had severe damage to their brains and they managed to get back skills like reading, talking and walking. It took a year but they were very persistent about exercising their nervous systems. It was kind of an interesting thing when they described how they lost something else to get the capability back.

They spoke about it as if they made a trade. Loss of mental math to regain speaking. Loss of a second language. Loss of color visualization for walking. The lesson I got out of this is if you get brain damage don’t give up trying to regain your abilities. What likely happened is they remapped to another part of their brain.

[Laura Ingalls]

Traditional individual intelligence testing loads pretty heavily on processing speed, which I suspect “brain fog” mostly is a slowing of processing,

My experience testing people with severe cardiac problems is that they take much longer to administer the test to regardless of the individual’s actual score achieved. They struggle to get the timed portions done quickly enough. The untimed parts they answer slowly and you can tell they are still trying not just unwilling to say “I don’t know.”

I would guess Covid is probably less impactful to the “g” factor which measures general intellect. I am sure researchers are studying this as we speak and there will be more details in the future.

[zbigi]

Timed intelligence is crucial though. Slower thinking means less thoughts considered per day, which means less progress (on whatever axis is relevant to the person) per day, which, over time, leads to being "stupider". Conversely, people massively succesful in an area which requires intellect are usually beasts when it comes to energy levels - which means much more thoughs per day till get tired, which compounds over years and decades into large advantage versus the field.

[IlliniDave]

I'll be interested to see what they learn as they tease things out of the observation over time, specifically as it pertains to the metabolic health of those from whom the data was gathered, and especially if there is some some insight into their pre-covid (and/or pre vaccine) metabolic health. It's becoming increasingly likely that the causes of most cognitive decline is rooted in long-term metabolic dysfunction, and I think it's reasonable to observe that the population cohort most at risk for serious cases of covid are those in the poorest metabolic health (the elderly, and those with prominent lifestyle disease conditions). The question I have would be whether the virus is causal or more of an accellerant of dysfunction already present. There is also purportedly a surge in the number of autoimmune-type disorders in the last 3 years that some attribute to the vaccines, but maybe it's the virus itself. There's also an amount of anecdotal (as far as I know it's still only anecdotal) reports of myocarditis allegedly attributed to the vaccines. What myocarditis, cognitive impairment, and many autoimmune conditions share is inflammation as a driver, with metabolic dysfunction being a possible mechanistic explanation for them.

To the best of my knowledge I've not had a covid-19 infection. As a matter of fact I haven't had any symptoms of cold nor flu nor covid since the fall of 2019. I attribute that to all the handwashing I got habituated to during the early months of the pandemic. I did get the initial 2-shot vaccine in 2020 and the first "booster" in 2021, but have opted out since.

[zbigi]

I did get the initial 2-shot vaccine in 2020 and the first "booster" in 2021, but have opted out since.

I've signed up for a booster shot (to be administered next Tuesday) after reading @jacob's link. I also know two people who had long-covid brain fog symptoms, and I really would like to minimize my chances of getting that. Neither of them is a paragon of metabolic health (one is overweight and doesn't excercise, the other is seriously obese) though, which plays into your line of speculation.

[ducknald_don]

What myocarditis, cognitive impairment, and many autoimmune conditions share is inflammation as a driver, with metabolic dysfunction being a possible mechanistic explanation for them.

Inflammation is the symptom for a lot of autoimmune diseases, I'm not sure there is any evidence that it is the trigger.

[IlliniDave]

Inflammation is the symptom for a lot of autoimmune diseases, I'm not sure there is any evidence that it is the trigger.

I think it's increasingly known that many if not most/all autoimmune diseases are various forms of inflammation which in turn cause the associated symptoms (pain in rheumatoid arthritis, etc.), It's true that one can peel the onion indefinitely, arguably all the way back to suboptimal nutrition choices and lifestyle in many/most cases, which then causes gut dysbiosis/gut inflammation, which in turn leads to leaky gut (and leaky BBB) which in turn freaks out the immune system (it's then dealing with foreign substances it was never designed to deal with) and confuses it so it attacks various tissues in the body. My curiosity is whether covid exacerbates these already potentially ongoing problems, or is a separate pathway that can create the maladies independent of an infected person's metabolic health.

[Sclass]

Traditional individual intelligence testing loads pretty heavily on processing speed-

This is a great point.

Reminds me of my family. They’re super student high IQ overachiever types. But like most valedictorians they turned out to be duds in the long game.

Fifty years later looking at the long game I realize the system coughed me up before I got digested. Maybe it does work the way it’s supposed to. My poor siblings and cousins are mentally enslaved in a system that selected them at an early age.

Back on Covid I can recall the autopsy findings at the beginning of the pandemic identified a lot of inflammatory damage. To lungs, heart, brain, digestive tract. I recall it was kind of inflammatory roulette . Strange disease. I got it for the first time at Christmas and it was like a mild allergy though I tested positive. Must have gotten a good vaccine. I have kept up with all the variants of the boosters. The stuff that put people on ventilators, dialysis or in cardiac wards during the first outbreak seem like a bad dream now.

[zbigi]

My poor siblings and cousins are mentally enslaved in a system that selected them at an early age.

From what you wrote elsewhere, they also look down on you. Perhaps it's a matter of different value systems - you value what you have and don't value what they have, and vice versa? Maybe everyone's just happy where they are?

[Laura Ingalls]

Timed intelligence is crucial though. Slower thinking means less thoughts considered per day, which means less progress (on whatever axis is relevant to the person) per day, which, over time, leads to being "stupider". Conversely, people massively succesful in an area which requires intellect are usually beasts when it comes to energy levels - which means much more thoughs per day till get tired, which compounds over years and decades into large advantage versus the field.

I don’t disagree at all, but solving the problem quickly and then getting it wrong doesn’t work particularly well in either both in a testing or real life either.

I have long thought that some people don’t get how different tasks demand more speed and others demand more accuracy and when to modulate one of the two.

People with long covid are reporting sudden discrete change in access knowledge not just the accumulation of not learning more new stuff.

[7Wannabe5]

I think "brain fog" vs. high IQ is a bit of a false dichotomy. Maybe you Te types are sharp through and through, but when a Ti type is deeply engaged in thinking, she is also most likely to walk into traffic or eat 6 cookies absent clear intention.

Also, it's important to realize that even the least functionally intelligent of humans are much more intelligent than, for example, your dog. Lack of education remains a far greater problem than lack of intelligence in the general population. I recently taught an illiterate (can't read ) 7 year old, who was described as a "feral animal" by another teacher, how to perform basic multiplication by the grouping method, and he quickly developed another unique tactic/algorithm which he preferred.

If you ever find yourself stranded on an island, the presence of another innately intelligent (because)human with whom you can co-operate would represent a huge asset towards your survival. The Modern structural barriers inherent in

engineer vs mechanic vs technician vs janitor

tend towards blinding us to this reality. There is only a narrow band of situations in which "isolation" is the best tactic, although clearly, a highly contagious potentially deadly and damaging disease would be one of these.

Also, in the short span of years since the onset of the Covid epidemic, the potential to be realized through human/AI collaboration has emerged as MUCH greater than 3 to 10 IQ points, at least in terms of efficiency. For example, I could cut the time to write a paper assigned on any given topic at grad level easily by 40% by making use of any currently handy AI. And, although it remains the case that knowing what questions to ask is an initial barrier, "conversation" can forward even the edge of abstraction. The future is variously and spottily manifesting in ways beyond the liberty inherent in the first public libraries of the enlightenment.

[Sclass]

From what you wrote elsewhere, they also look down on you. Perhaps it's a matter of different value systems - you value what you have and don't value what they have, and vice versa? Maybe everyone's just happy where they are?

They are happy till they meet me and try to compete which is what we were conditioned to do as small children. The rare times I show up for a family gathering (recently it was my father’s funeral ) we do our catching up which is thinly veiled score keeping. Once we catch up they become unhappy.

The idea that many fast results integrate needs to be weighed against whether an individual can accumulate many small victories. Many people are scattered and cannot compound results. They may process quickly but their results do not sum to some positive signal. Some can some can’t. I’ve seen some really sharp ADHD people who are nowhere.

Fast processing is a good thing. You can score well on a test and get a job working in a big system. It really depends on what you want to do. I just wanted to make money. I’m pretty base in that sense. As I’ve said before if I could just build an ATM in my garage that spits out cash everytime I need money that’s what I’d do. I’d even go to boring school to learn how to build it if I could. And it wouldn’t matter to me if I had a title as chief ATM architect or what not. I just want the ATM and PIN with no work. That’s my value system.

Ooh it’s almost lunch. I think I’ll ride my motorcycle down to the taco pop up and get some tamales.

[Frita]

Just tagging onto what @Laura Ingalls said…

I’d be curious which IQ test they were using and whether or not it was an abbreviated version (potentially less accurate). Also, I wonder about the sample: size as well as finding individuals who’d take the same test prior to COVID. Most adults haven’t taken an individually-administered IQ test ever.

Regarding processing speed, standardized IQ tests typically also give composite scores that are more meaningful diagnostically with regards to functionality than a composite score. For example, the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale – IV (WAIS-IV) has four composites:
1) Verbal Comprehension Index (VCI)—verbal reasoning and concepts
2) Perceptual Reasoning Index (PRI)— nonverbal concept formation, visual perception and organization, visual-motor coordination, separation figure and ground in visual stimuli
3) Working Memory Index (WMI)—ability to sustain attention, concentrate, and exert mental control
4) Processing Speed Index (PSI)—process simple or routine visual material without making errors

If only one composite score was affected, say processing speed, and affecting the overall IQ; it could be teased out. I would suspect that long-term COVID and any other significant illnesses/hospitalizations would highly impact working memory as well. Scores of a non-recovered person seems to reduce the reliability coefficient of true IQ, necessitating readministration for an accurate score post-recovery.

[jacob]

Just tagging onto what @Laura Ingalls said…

I’d be curious which IQ test they were using and whether or not it was an abbreviated version (potentially less accurate). Also, I wonder about the sample: size as well as finding individuals who’d take the same test prior to COVID. Most adults haven’t taken an individually-administered IQ test ever.

From the references:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2311330

Participants undertook eight computerized online tasks from the Cognitron battery11,17 in a fixed order on their personal devices (e.g., desktop or laptop computer, tablet, or smartphone). The cognitive domains, which have been implicated in post–Covid-19 syndromes,9,18-20 consisted of immediate memory, two-dimensional mental manipulation, spatial working memory, spatial planning, verbal analogical reasoning, word definitions, information sampling, and delayed memory (see the Supplemental Methods section in the Supplementary Appendix). Each task resulted in a primary accuracy-based score as well as in secondary scores (e.g., response times and error types).

More here: https://www.cognitron.co.uk/

Our assessment comprised tasks that were designed to measure distinct aspects of cognitive performance that are associated with different brain systems.17 The memory, reasoning, and executive function (i.e., planning) tasks were among the most sensitive to Covid-19–related cognitive differences.9,10,26 We found that performance on these tasks differed according to illness duration and hospitalization.

[black_son_of_gray]

It remains unclear how permanent this effect is ... insofar it actually is an effect. Regardless, it's definitely worth paying attention to. One of the few risks of ERE is losing intellectual capacity. ERE does require the ability to think.

Indeed, it also remains unclear whether this problem accumulates. Infection counts with SARS-COV2 are still very high and will likely continue to stay high for the indefinite future. A number of studies now have pointed towards increased risks [across a wide array of possible conditions] with each subsequent infection. e.g. (numbers made up to demonstrate point) if a single infection increased the risk of [unfortunate outcome] by 2X, the second infection increased that risk even more (like, an additional 2X), and a third infection even more, and so on. Anecdotally, people often report having mild 1st, 2nd, or 3rd infections, and then being slammed and left with long covid after a subsequent infection.

Somewhat scary to think 1) how many infections some people have had by this point, 2) how much cognitive reserve the general population has to begin with, and 3) the apparent timeline (years? decades?) yet remaining in exposure to this virus.

It remains a prudent course of action to minimize the total number of SARS-COV2 infections unless/until these details get sorted out.

[black_son_of_gray]

Also, in the short span of years since the onset of the Covid epidemic, the potential to be realized through human/AI collaboration has emerged as MUCH greater than 3 to 10 IQ points, at least in terms of efficiency. For example, I could cut the time to write a paper assigned on any given topic at grad level easily by 40% by making use of any currently handy AI.

Perhaps true, but I think the example you've provided has nuances worth pointing out with respect to 'intelligence'. There is the 'grad level' definition that points to a more granular/specific/exhaustive analysis than required in undergrad. Maybe this is Master's level thinking. AI might be really helpful with that. But 'grad level' can also be though of as a creative synthesis that builds upon and approaches the topic in ways that is different in kind. This requires not only knowing that Master's level analysis and information, but also manipulating it or holding a very large amount of it in mental buffer to work with it. At least, that's a way of framing certain PhD levels of thinking. As I understand it, AI as it currently is can't give you that (or, at least not much of it) - and a hit of a ~5 IQ points could be devastating to this particular skill set. But I don't really keep up with the AI thing...am I way off base?