What doesn't kill you might make you dumber?

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Re: What doesn't kill you might make you dumber?

Post by jacob »

Sclass wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2024 8:48 am
Has the economy collapsed? If we have had a step function decline in IQ is there some kind of system response that we can readily observe?
Estimates of annual loses due to long COVID in the US is in the USD250B/yr range. (About 1% of GDP). That's people who are out of the labor force either full time or part time.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama-h ... le/2792505
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new- ... t-of-work/

Obviously there are other factors than just a drop in mental ability, Given that the economy is a complex system (and presumably nonlinear), it's difficult to conclude anything from changing just one thing. The closest to step-inputs would be things like below where the difference in resulting grades is pretty clear.
jacob wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2024 7:36 am
Lets take a team of engineering majors and have them take a class in business administration and have a team of business majors take a class in engineering. The difference in how much each team will struggle learning new material is obvious to anyone who has ever tried this "experiment".

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Re: What doesn't kill you might make you dumber?

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@7w reminds me how a lot of ultra high IQ end up in mental hospitals or locked down in think tanks. There are some common endgames for really smart people.

I worked at HP Labs which was founded by Bernard Oliver. One of Claude Shannon’s playmates at Bell. Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard recruited him because he was the smartest guy they knew but they quickly found out they had to imprison him or he’d take over and subsequently destroy their business. They created HP Labs in the Palo Alto hills to keep him away from their business and their competitor’s business. They basically gave him a prison disguised as a nerd amusement park where he could just do whatever he thought was interesting.

The tradition was to recruit the smartest most innovative engineers and scientists and lock them up in there. Many great intellects never saw the light of day.

Once in awhile someone would invent something like an ink jet printer registration bed or an optical mouse sensor. But for the most part the people were kept very comfortable and forgotten about. It was rumored we were also a safe house for scientists from behind the iron curtain. They worked on what amounted to nothing. Rumor was in was a DOD deal brokered over buying our equipment and employing their sensitive intellectual assets. The scientists would never be cleared for government labs but they were still too dangerous to have freelancing in the world. Some of those guys never got laid off which was puzzling because their research was clearly unprofitable.

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Re: What doesn't kill you might make you dumber?

Post by Sclass »

jacob wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2024 10:03 am
Estimates of annual loses due to long COVID in the US is in the USD250B/yr range. (About 1% of GDP). That's people who are out of the labor force either full time or part time.
This is data. But it’s all muddied up. For example an employer could have used the pandemic to clean house and mid career employees could join the long term unemployed. Once there disability becomes the income source. There’s too much going on in that number.

I must admit I’ve heard it is difficult to find qualified candidates right now for high level knowledge work.

Empirically I tried to look at post WW2 economic recoveries in postwar Japan and Germany. A lot of intellectuals were killed off on battlefields or genocides. I imagine there was a recovery period as the demand for knowledge work ramped up again. Reconstruction doesn’t look like it happened overnight. There seems to have been a lag.

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Re: What doesn't kill you might make you dumber?

Post by Riggerjack »

Lets take a team of engineering majors and have them take a class in business administration and have a team of business majors take a class in engineering. The difference in how much each team will struggle learning new material is obvious to anyone who has ever tried this "experiment".
Sure. Now let's follow these 2 classes out of the classroom and into the world. Do they work in different environments? Whose environment are they in? Their bosses were chosen for a variety of traits, how heavily loaded was high IQ in this choice. How about their boss' boss?

Is HR creating an environment favorable to high IQ, or are they trying to broaden the available talent pool by requiring less talent? Is HR even able to judge talent, or merely certifications? Who does this favor?

As we judge the "success" of high IQ people in our society, how does high IQ relate to success? How hard do we have to twist the definitions of success to bring those with extremely high IQ (160+) or high IQ (130+) up to the success rate of moderately high IQ (110-115)?

The negative feedback my culture provides for high IQ is obvious and constant. If there are fewer IQ outliers, the systems may just run smoother.

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Re: What doesn't kill you might make you dumber?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Riggerjack wrote:Or perhaps creating an environment with features that attract high IQ, without the constant negative feedback for high IQ my culture generates, would be appropriate. Match the environment to the "problem", rather than trying to solve the "problem" for the default environment.
Yes, this is basically the problem being faced in designing programs for gifted students, which is not entirely unlike the problem of designing an ERE2 mod/city. I believe the primary, or at least first, issue to address is always "How much structure?"
Has he ever really had a chance to put his talents to use, and test his capabilities? I also drank far too much before I learned to create my own challenges.

Outliers get less satisfaction from default options, and more negative feedback. Removing default options, replacing them with custom options has been very helpful for me.
I agree with what you are saying, but I can't view the question objectively. However, since I was his mother and his father was towards Van Gogh/Jim Carroll doppelganger, you can assume that he grew up in an environment that erred on the side of "unstructured." Imagine a big old drafty house filled with books and home-baked muffins and maybe only 3 rules strictly enforced. I think he was the sort of gifted kid who would have done well in a private school that taught by the Oxford method, but I couldn't afford the tuition.
SClass wrote:a lot of ultra high IQ end up in mental hospitals or locked down in think tanks. There are some common endgames for really smart people.
Absolutely true about the mental hospitals; the number of psychiatric incidents I have had to deal with in my family and/or one degree marriage/social separation is waaaay out of bounds. Interesting note about the think tank lock down alternative. I don't know what my IQ is for sure, but my old SAT score was 1490 and my old GRE score was 2370 which roughly correlates to high 140s , and it has been my experience that almost everybody with a higher IQ than me is unable to pass for normal. Although, it does seem like INTJs might be better able to pass as normal-for-a-nerd than other types with high IQ. IOW, most humans recognize the characters in Big Bang Theory with their white boards full of equations as the accepted sort of High IQ deviant, but they don't recognize my INFP sister with her "performance art" as an acceptable sort of High IQ deviant. Probably because most normal humans appreciate having access to a microwave oven more than they appreciate having access to avant-garde punk symphonic music.

Another example of social maladaption would be the two GFE (girlfriend experience escorts) I knew who both had fathers who were academics associated with the U of M. One of the fathers was quite wealthy due to inventing something that makes the internet function and the other was an extreme Zionist. Both of them had successfully "deconstructed" the human mating system. Although, I also read somewhere that it is more common for high iq men to be socially maladapted in youth and then become more adapted with age, but the reverse holds true for women.

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Re: What doesn't kill you might make you dumber?

Post by Sclass »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2024 9:10 am
Also the fact that a lot of high IQ folk tend towards being drop-outs. For instance, one of my uncles was a typical highly radical1960s drop-out. He was part of one of the more dangerous anti- Vietnam War groups organized around a major university.
Ugh. Reminds me of stories of the Weathermen. Kind of a legend around my undergrad university. Too smart for their own good. :o
Another example of social maladaption would be the two GFE (girlfriend experience escorts) I knew who both had fathers who were academics associated with the U of M. One of the fathers was quite wealthy due to inventing something that makes the internet function and the other was an extreme Zionist. Both of them had successfully "deconstructed" the human mating system.
I’d love to hear more about this in another thread. You’ve alluded to these ladies before but I had no idea they were professors’ daughters. :D. I recall reading an article by a Silicon Valley C-suite escort. She described “deconstruction” like cracking the code of the stressed out tech executive. Once she learned what they really needed (surprisingly non-sexual) she was overbooked. She retired out early and wrote stories about her work.

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Re: What doesn't kill you might make you dumber?

Post by Riggerjack »

I believe the primary, or at least first, issue to address is always "How much structure?"
No. The first relevant question is "where are the boundaries of structure, and how does the default structure compare to the possible structures."

One cannot even judge the value of the default without a valid comparison. How much of default one accepts, depends on the value one ascribes to default.

Beginning with default structure as the definition of structure removes all the interesting possibilities.

Consider that Mann actually knew what he was doing. How much should the decisions of a long dead white man limit your options? He was solving different problems, at a different time, using different tools. His goal was recreation of German footsoldiers from American farmstock. His goal was to create the labor force for industrial production lines.

Are these your goals? If not, how much structure do you want to adopt from a default structure that is still working on achieving these goals?

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Re: What doesn't kill you might make you dumber?

Post by jacob »

Riggerjack wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2024 10:50 am
Sure. Now let's follow these 2 classes out of the classroom and into the world. Do they work in different environments? Whose environment are they in? Their bosses were chosen for a variety of traits, how heavily loaded was high IQ in this choice. How about their boss' boss?
There have been very many studies and meta-studies on this. Suffice to say, cognitive ability has a very high statistical validity for training purposes (32% to 76%) as well as job proficiency (29% to 61%). Validity measures the probability whether the given variable is the correct explanation as opposed to something else (e.g. being tall, good looking, disciplined, 40yd dash,... etc.). The validity is for higher for more complex occupations. For example, sales-manager is a more complex job than bus driver. As such, cognitive ability matters more for a sales job than driving a bus, whereas motor skill ability matters more for driving a vehicle than it does for salesmanship. In general, cognitive ability matters more tasks that involve analyzing, coordinating, and creating ... and less for tasks that are routine.

Numbers and tables here: https://gwern.net/doc/iq/1984-hunter.pdf (Table 1 and 2)
Riggerjack wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2024 10:50 am
Is HR creating an environment favorable to high IQ, or are they trying to broaden the available talent pool by requiring less talent? Is HR even able to judge talent, or merely certifications? Who does this favor?
In fact, cognitive tests are so effective at predicting talent for job performance that they are not legal in many places as it would narrow the pool too much. Employers get around this by testing by proxy. I think it could easily be argued that a lot of degrees/certifications is such testing. This kind of proxy includes those who have demonstrated an ability via sheer grit, people skills, ... etc. "Requiring a college degree" is however a pretty costly proxy, especially when domain knowledge isn't really required. However, do this to protect the, say 1-0.76=24% from the numbers above, who would wrongly be discarded because they would have been good at the job despite failing the cognitive test on the job interview.
Riggerjack wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2024 10:50 am
As we judge the "success" of high IQ people in our society, how does high IQ relate to success? How hard do we have to twist the definitions of success to bring those with extremely high IQ (160+) or high IQ (130+) up to the success rate of moderately high IQ (110-115)?
Well, there's more to success than "making money". But aside from income and wealth, IQ also correlates with low criminality, longevity, health, creativity, and openness to new experiences. It does not correlate with happiness though. Other than that these are all statistically significant, so any loss in cognitive ability is adverse.

TL;DR - Cognitive ability is a good predictor of how well someone is at dealing with complex tasks. Not all tasks in life are equally complex and not everybody or every job involve complex tasks. This [drop] thus affects people with complex lives more than it affects those who enjoy simpler lives. And it affects engineers more than carpenters, lawyers more than lumberjacks. To bring it full circle to the OP, ERE is a complex task and thus it is more likely than not that a loss in cognitive ability would affect [ERE] materially. Therefore best avoided.

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Re: What doesn't kill you might make you dumber?

Post by ducknald_don »

Riggerjack wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2024 9:37 am
Well, if they have their certifications, IQ isn't necessary. Or at least that was my corporate employment experience. If they don't have the certification, and the IQ drop prevents them from achieving their certification, someone else will get the certification, and the job. Very, very few jobs are structured so higher IQ is likely to produce significantly different results. Same for lower IQ.
Certification is almost irrelevant for most jobs. Look at the hiring process in tech, pretty much all of it is a proxy for IQ. Certification is treated with disdain because it's at best neutral, possibly even a negative signal.

I've managed teams where I'm dishing out work based on who I think can handle it. Alice is smart so she can cope with this but Bob isn't so bright so I'll pass him something else. Now that Alice has had covid perhaps I have nobody on the team that can handle the harder stuff. What do you do, hire someone new, drop the work? All these small cuts add up over time.

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Re: What doesn't kill you might make you dumber?

Post by black_son_of_gray »

Sclass wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2024 8:48 am
Has the economy collapsed? If we have had a step function decline in IQ is there some kind of system response that we can readily observe?
[...]
When I don’t really know the laws that govern a system I start by injecting a step function into the input and I measure the output. Historically there have to be some similar examples like economic recoveries after war or famine.
It's not perfect, but I find the following data series informative: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNU01074597
[Obviously, this is US-centric -- it would be interesting to know if this replicates elsewhere]

Since the pandemic began, 'disabled' workers have increased by (8MM/6MM) about a third!

I interpret the timeline as follows: After about a decade of relatively stable baseline, covid spreads throughout the community (picking up steam mostly in late 2020 as 'lockdowns' and mask-wearing eased up) and disability spikes in Spring 2021 (lag due to length of covid-wave-pulse +typical length of illness, etc.). Is the steeper initial jump in disability because this was pre-vaccine? Because it was a particular, early strain? Because it was people's first time getting covid? [Is it even really steeper, or is that just data variability?]... I don't know, but the rise does have conspicuous, suggestive timing!

After the initial, massive waves, have infections continued throughout the country? Yep.
After the initial, seemingly steeper rise in disability, has disability continued to increase? It looks that way.
Is it currently petering out, as the numbers haven't increased since Aug 2023? Maybe...but it could also just be a noisy trend line. Only time will really tell.
Will this trend of increasing disability continue? I don't know, but all one really needs to suppose is that what has apparently happened and what is apparently happening simply continues to happen.

Now, as far as 'the economy' goes, this is indeed all very muddy. Someone might still work despite disability...though I doubt they do the same job just as well. (or, even if they did, it might be more taxing/draining...the kind of thing that has economic knock-on effects, because someone who gets home from work and simply crashes in bed is less likely to go out shopping or traveling or concerts, etc. Maybe they substitute discretionary spending for addition health care costs...there is a kind of 'broken window' fallacy there that might not show up in overall GDP because the same money is getting spent). Also, consider that unemployment is low potentially because 'the pool of workers able to do a job is shrinking' so employers must compete over them? Which is a very different reason than 'because the economy is growing so fast'.

How all this relates to 'IQ' is also muddy. Apparently, long covid manifests in a half dozen or so different 'types'. For some, it is mostly metabolic (e.g. extreme fatigue, dysregulated energy production at the cellular level). For others, it is vascular (clots, heart issues, etc.). For others still, it is neurological (POTS, brain fog, tinnitus, abnormal taste/smell, etc.). Of course, there could be combinations as well. I have to wonder if the average IQ drop pulled out a large population doesn't actually look something like: a smaller subset of affected individuals had large IQ drops (say, 20+ points), but those were averaged across the whole affected pool because the types of long covid manifestations were not sorted into subgroups. So, bigger effect (oh no!), but smaller population (Yay, not likely to be me!). But then over a long enough time...what are the odds?

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Re: What doesn't kill you might make you dumber?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Sclass" wrote:Ugh. Reminds me of stories of the Weathermen. Kind of a legend around my undergrad university. Too smart for their own good. :o
Yes, my uncle was at U of M in the 60s and was to some extent involved with one of these groups. Which is kind of interesting, because my grandfather was also the representative for the City of Detroit in an important Supreme Court ruling involving racial relations. My sister knows more about it than me, because she was in the alternative/punk/metal music scene on the West Coast in the 90s, so hung out with my Black Sheep uncle more as an adult. Although, I feel like I know him a bit too well, since I happened upon his fairly extensive erotic literature collection in my early teens. :o
SClass wrote:I’d love to hear more about this in another thread.
"Sex Work, Erotic Capital and ERE" thread soon to be posted. Will also provide a venue for expression of thoughts I've recently had related to the late 19th century practice of "treating" and online dating.
RJ wrote:No. The first relevant question is "where are the boundaries of structure, and how does the default structure compare to the possible structures."
I agree, but it seems like this usually defaults to "pure bottom-up emergence" vs. Microsoft Project.
Are these your goals? If not, how much structure do you want to adopt from a default structure that is still working on achieving these goals?
Somewhat more than Emma Goldman, but much, much less than Jordan Peterson. So, maybe approximately at the level of the character of Kramer on Seinfeld? ;)
ducknald_don wrote:Certification is almost irrelevant for most jobs. Look at the hiring process in tech, pretty much all of it is a proxy for IQ. Certification is treated with disdain because it's at best neutral, possibly even a negative signal.
This does vary depending on field. For example, you theoretically have to be certified to teach secondary mathematics in my state, and the subject exam which I took a few years ago is reasonably tough, but there aren't enough humans who can pass the math exam who also want to take all the education courses (including me)or pass on the potential of a higher paying job in another field. Also, very few humans practicing medicine without jumping through a few levels of grueling hoops. OTOH, I do agree that the M.S. degree in IT/Data Science which I am currently pursuing is fairly useless compared to my B.S. in Mathematics. Roughly analogous to a rack of currently stylish accessories vs. a classic little black dress. However, my scheme to get a job in the field includes abbreviating my first and last name in a manner that offers the impresssion that I am likely young, hip, and of Asian heritage. How acceptable is it to show up as an avatar and or make use of wrinkle erasing feature for a virtual interview thesedays?

@black_son_of_gray:

Could the rise in disability also have to do with 1) the overall aging of the population and 2) the revelation of government benefits made available throughout the pandemic? For example, I was in my late 50s and had never previously collected unemployment benefits, but I did during Covid, so now the process is in my "bag of tricks", along with Home Office Deduction and Free Thai Food for Commiserating with Recently Divorced Men.

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Re: What doesn't kill you might make you dumber?

Post by IlliniDave »

ducknald_don wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:20 am
I don't think there is much evidence for that, the consensus seems to be most autoimmune diseases are triggered by a virus which causes the immune system to go into overdrive. Often people develop these diseases at a young age when they are otherwise fit and healthy. There is very little correlation between something like type 1 diabetes and weight for instance.
That's not the consensus of the research/experts I've been following/studying. As a matter of fact your mention of it is the first I've ever heard of that theory as the cause of most autoimmune disease. Which virus do they say causes autoimmune disorders? I'd like to know more about that although I'm admittedly skeptical. Lyme disease maybe? That's one of many causes. It's actually a complicated topic. Here's a short video that basically summarizes the top causes and the challenge of treating them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfOxuJWyd_s

And there is theoretically a substantial correlation between type I diabetes and weight, though it's opposite that of Type II diabetes and weight. Without exogenous insulin a type 1 diabetic will essentially starve to death (if hyperglycemia doesn't kill them first). There's even a, I dunno, "thing" or syndrome, of Type 1 diabetics who skip or short their insulin injections to keep their weight low/leanness high.

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Re: What doesn't kill you might make you dumber?

Post by ducknald_don »

IlliniDave wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2024 11:21 am
And there is theoretically a substantial correlation between type I diabetes and weight, though it's opposite that of Type II diabetes and weight. Without exogenous insulin a type 1 diabetic will essentially starve to death (if hyperglycemia doesn't kill them first). There's even a, I dunno, "thing" or syndrome, of Type 1 diabetics who skip or short their insulin injections to keep their weight low/leanness high.
Again you seem to be confusing symptoms and causes.

https://www.diabetes.org.uk/diabetes-th ... e-1/causes

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Re: What doesn't kill you might make you dumber?

Post by IlliniDave »

ducknald_don wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2024 12:12 pm
Again you seem to be confusing symptoms and causes.

https://www.diabetes.org.uk/diabetes-th ... e-1/causes
No, I'm not confusing anything. Type I diabetes is causal to generally lower body weight (and therefore correlated) is what I was saying. Not that lower body weight causes Type I diabetes. The "thing" I alluded to about skipping insulin:

https://www.diabetes.org.uk/guide-to-di ... diabulimia

If you have type I diabetes and stop treating it by taking insulin you will lose weight. But it's a very bad idea.

The only reason I mention diabulimia is because it's illustrative of the relationship between Type I diabetes and weight.

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Re: What doesn't kill you might make you dumber?

Post by Riggerjack »

In general, cognitive ability matters more tasks that involve analyzing, coordinating, and creating ... and less for tasks that are routine.
My point wasn't that IQ doesn't matter. My point was that high and extremely high IQ are far more common than are the niches my culture provides, requiring high IQ. Substitutes are readily available.
Well, there's more to success than "making money".
I completely agree. As you define success with all factors included.
But aside from income and wealth, IQ also correlates with low criminality, longevity, health, creativity, and openness to new experiences.
Huh. All that going for them with no bump in happiness, income, or wealth. It's almost like there is some negative feedback that offsets all those advantages.

And yet there seems to be a shortage of these people. Not enough to go around.

Still, each high IQ niche is heavily, deeply competed after. So competed for, in fact, they don't tend to pay well. Or they pay extremely well. That's an odd pattern.

It's almost like the supply is deeply constrained in some way.
Employers get around this by testing by proxy. I think it could easily be argued that a lot of degrees/certifications is such testing. This kind of proxy includes those who have demonstrated an ability via sheer grit, people skills, ... etc. "Requiring a college degree" is however a pretty costly proxy, especially when domain knowledge isn't really required.
Oh, there it is. Let's call this a "grit filter". High IQ individuals are too common, and too volatile. If we put them through a grit filter (consisting of a large bureaucracy containing lifelong political struggles), we'll know who can tolerate the political games and bureaucratic games of the "real world".

Even all those who finish school, many high IQ individuals never find work they can really sink their teeth into. This is also reflected in your averages.

High IQ simply isn't very valued in my culture. We have more than we can use. The most gritty, we shuffle into academia. The most money motivated get well compensated for making rich men richer. The rest get scattered to industry. The fallout rate from each of those destinations seems to track IQ, though, doesn't it? It's almost like the higher one's IQ, the less satisfaction one can wring from the standard puzzles and rewards.
In general, cognitive ability matters more tasks that involve analyzing, coordinating, and creating ... and less for tasks that are routine.
And jobs that involve analyzing become routine, as do jobs involving coordinating and creating. One develops the routines of the job. Our hierarchies are built on the cog performing it's duty. It can be a sharp, new cog, or an old rounded cog, so long as the cog doesn't slip, the machine keeps turning.

If the cog slips, we have processes for replacing cogs and correcting timing. And increase in the replacement of cogs and timing fixes is not game changing. It is just increased churn. IQ drop in mass, is a shock my culture is well prepared for.
To bring it full circle to the OP, ERE is a complex task and thus it is more likely than not that a loss in cognitive ability would affect [ERE] materially. Therefore best avoided.
We have come to the same conclusion via different paths. Your path shows a potential catastrophe as highly valued, extremely talented people fade to highly valued, very talented people. My path shows that those people are more common than we can use, and their output isn't valued very highly at all.

If we both believe that cognitive ability coupled to valuable problems will be likely to generate value, which path leads to an actionable conclusion?
Certification is almost irrelevant for most jobs. Look at the hiring process in tech, pretty much all of it is a proxy for IQ. Certification is treated with disdain because it's at best neutral, possibly even a negative signal.
So after many decades, in a field known for explosive growth, enormous fortunes, involving puzzles best tackled by extremely high IQ, the grit filter has less value. Something about the nature of the work, and the potential value of that work allows for a culture that values IQ enough to actually look for high IQ, rather than simply accepting a proxy.

My culture is so slow, this is what passes for an innovative, dynamic environment.

But I think you will find this trend goes the other way once the explosive growth phase of your company is over with. High IQ people are often high on someone's hit list, and political gamesmanship is part of making the cut into the future. Some people focus on the puzzle, some on the wrapper. Having seen many, many downsizings, a mentality easily distracted by gift wrap, is clearly a survival trait in hierarchies. Lots of attention available for networking in that one.
I've managed teams where I'm dishing out work based on who I think can handle it. Alice is smart so she can cope with this but Bob isn't so bright so I'll pass him something else. Now that Alice has had covid perhaps I have nobody on the team that can handle the harder stuff. What do you do, hire someone new, drop the work? All these small cuts add up over time.
Sure they do. But everything cuts. So maybe Alice can't bail you out anymore. You fail. Maybe your company fails. But the next company is starting. Alice's little sister is looking for work, and maybe Alice would be happier doing something else. This, at the macro level just looks like an increase in churn.

Alice is just one more lesson on why we can't depend on high IQ people to bail us out. Too volitile. You just never know when your smart employee is going to burn out. Maybe Bob and his not very bright brother plus chatGPT can fake 95% of what Alice could do. Maybe the smart thing to do is work with what you have, sweep 5% under the rug, and let the next re-organization solve this problem. You know, manage the problem. Everyone else is.
Will this trend of increasing disability continue? I don't know, but all one really needs to suppose is that what has apparently happened and what is apparently happening simply continues to happen.
This is the way I read it.

I successfully evaded covid for 4 years. And I jumped on the Paxlovid, immediately.

We wiped out a strain of flu with the lockdowns, then decided we would just host covid. Lockdown was too hard.

I expect to go indefinitely into the future without more covid. Wearing a mask, and washing my hands every few weeks doesn't seem like much of a sacrifice. But my lifestyle is my own.

Covid seems worth avoiding for all the reasons you gave, and more.
I agree, but it seems like this usually defaults to "pure bottom-up emergence" vs. Microsoft Project.
Well, one way to understand my 4th person thread is describing the means of bootstrapping pure bottom up emergence. With no "vs. Microsoft".

I've written before about not wasting resources being opposed.

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