Whole-Food, Plant-based Diet is ERE

[Oey]

has anyone tried a whole food plant based diet? It is a diet that I've been doing for a few years and my health has improved greatly. there are medical doctors on youtube who teach it for free.

i think WFPB diet could be analogous to ERE, in that it does for your physical health what ERE does for your financial health.

the doctors who teach WFPB diet are on youtube, it's all free and you might get something out it....

[mathiverse]

We've had a few discussions about it. I'd definitely take a look at those if you are interested in reading more along with the other replies to this thread. I thought guitarplayer laid out the arguments pretty well here: viewtopic.php?p=253076#p253076, although he makes it even more extreme by also avoiding added fat, added salt, and added sugar.

I don't eat a whole food, plant based diet myself.

This is another interesting thread about it: viewtopic.php?t=9056.

Also I have a question: When you say "whole food, plant based" do you mean whole food, plant based literally (ie no processed foods a la Ultra Processed People by Chris van Tulleken) or do you mean a "vegan" diet pattern with no animal products?

[Oey]

that's great i'll check out the thread

although there are gazillions of youtubers who post videos on the topic, just want to say it is better to learn from the medical doctors who have been teaching for many years. otherwise it is a morass of opinions from amateurs.

john mcdougall md, dean ornish md, michael kaper md, michael greger md, caldwell esselstyn md, neal barnard md, and others.

for anyone interested, they all have personal teaching styles so i say find one you like!

[mathiverse]

Oh okay, based on those recommendations it sounds like you mean a diet without any animal products (aka "vegan" diet pattern). Thanks for the clarification.

EDIT: I don't mean to imply all WFPB people are vegan given that veganism sometimes implies ethics beyond dietary choices. I did intend to imply that animal products aren't typically much of the diet and sometimes they are not supposed to be included at all in some versions (like if I understand correctly, Greger). As in there are some WFPB advocates who would argue grass fed ground beef or eggs aren't a part of the diet (with the implication they aren't whole foods). Oey appears to agree with that.

[Oey]

I know! I'm sorry the acronyms suck!

Whole-Food PLant Based means food that isn't turned into something that comes in a colorful box at the grocery store.

it is so simple yummy, and beautiful too, but yeah I have to admit it took me a while to get it.

So if you want to change from SAD to WFPB you'll have to teach yourself with the doctors' help. good luck!

[AxelHeyst]

Seems like conceptually WFPB is "get ingredients and assemble yourself, mostly or entirely plants." I note that some WFPB people are not vegan. Yep, that's pretty ERE - insourcing the skill and production of meals, rather than exchanging money for those services/competencies. Passes the Pollan test: Eat Food, not too much, mostly plants.

I was reading in Mollison about the energy cascade through ecosystems, known as the 10% Rule of energy flow through trophic levels. Herbivores get about 10% of the plant's energy, carnivores get about 10% of the herbivore's energy, etc. You can start with the sun and amount of plants an area can sustain and work out how many pounds of herbivore and carnivore the land can sustain, back of envelope, using this. (Not an expert, def interested in more in depth resources on this if anyone has them.)

[Slevin]

A large part of this forum eats a diet with little to no animal products (including me) for many reasons. It is certainly much much better for you than SAD when well calibrated.

Overall health wise, it is likely slightly worse for you than a similar diet with only added eggs and fish once a week or something like that, but well within “acceptable” parameters for most and most people who choose a whole food vegan diet it are mixing both health based outcomes and moral outcomes to the system. Personally WFPB isn’t something that works well for me because my body likes fats (and oils tend to make cooking much more delicious). It’s also less cost competitive for the same reasons and harder to stomach for some (sooooo many carbs). So I just eat a vegan diet of whole foods, and try to eat as much as I can from my garden and grown locally.

I find Gil Carvalho to be one of the best at digging through the health stuff around plant based diets, while keeping it sane and not promoting the thing he does as the absolute best when it falls short. Pure evangelization of a thing should always raise a red flag that you are reading propaganda, and I do find that too often in this space.

[Slevin]

I was reading in Mollison about the energy cascade through ecosystems, known as the 10% Rule of energy flow through trophic levels.

Yes but historically people would herd animals around marginal land and land where people wouldn’t be farming, so they are extracting extra “free calories” from the areas they wander through (and the herders would be eating the human viable food themselves). So this system made a lot of sense. With CAFOs now, this isn’t the case anymore. Now we are intensely growing the food (corn + soy) and trashing the land to then produce one certain type of calorie output at very low % conversion efficiency (meat), so the trophic levels matter a lot more (and it’s basically an insanely inefficient petro chemical -> food pipeline)

[IlliniDave]

I can't tolerate a lot of grains and extra starchy plants for health reasons, and switching to whole food based nutrition with that restriction more than doubled my monthly food bill. Because of my age keeping muscle mass is going to be an ever-higher priority going forward. I base my nutrition one layer below the macronutrient level, and it's hard to beat high quality animal protein when it comes to completeness of protein and efficiency for human needs, especially of aging humans. That said, a vegan spin on a whole food diet is >> SAD, just beware of seed oils and that some people have pronounced sensitivity to lectins in certain plants, especially "new world" veggies. I generally don't seem to have a lot of sensitivity to lectins but I still steer clear of eating a lot of what tend to be regarded as the worst offenders.

[7Wannabe5]

Well, the good news is we are apparently already past Peak Corn Syrup:





And also clearly just about to hit the sweet spot of the curve for the U.S. Insect Protein Market:

[Lemur]

Yes - Have tried and even went WFPB/Vegan for about a year or so but ultimately felt problems with energy levels despite getting the right micronutrients (like B12, Calcium, Magnesium, etc). My bloodwork was fantastic though. The energy issues might have been related to blood sugar crashes…far too many carbohydrates on these diets. I probably should’ve added more fats (avocados, nuts) next time if I ever attempt veganism again.

Now I follow loosely with WFPB but still consume meat (mostly chicken) and still mostly avoid pork and beef unless it comes up on occasion. I have meat free days.

In hindsight, I think being healthy in this department mostly rests on maintaining a healthy bodyweight (that alone prevents many of the Western diseases) and secondly health in nutrition might matter more for not what you’re eating but what you’re avoiding.

The thread on insulin resistance is an informative one.

ETA: Never eaten an insect. I don’t know if I am open to that lol even with the understanding its common in other parts of the world…perhaps insects will come to me in the next decades.

Also be aware of appropriate protein levels. Especially as you get older, requirements go up. The RDA is terrible. Donald Layman provides excellent research on better requirements. Meat obviously makes this easier but plenty of plant protein sources as well. I believe some forum members even make their own tempeh.

[Slevin]

I probably should’ve added more fats (avocados, nuts) next time if I ever attempt veganism again.

Meat obviously makes this easier but plenty of plant protein sources as well. I believe some forum members even make their own tempeh.

Yeah this is basically where I ended up. Heavier on the fats, and also focused on the protein. This means lots of legumes + avo + tofu + tempeh. Then I supplement protein with a PB2 and pea milk shake, the most delicious (and actually weirdly affordable) “protein shake” ever. Whole heartedly can’t recommend enough.

[plantnerd]

I've been on a plant based diet for a decade and do a labor intensive job. We eat a lot of vegetables, a lot of legumes (including homemade tempeh which is much much better tasting than any I've bought), herbs, nuts, seeds, and a generous amount of olive oil. I do include white flour which I know some people eschew, but on the other hand I do add a good amount of seeds and nuts to the breads I make.

[loutfard]

i think WFPB diet could be analogous to ERE, in that it does for your physical health what ERE does for your financial health.

I very much appreciate how ERE is so much wider in scope than just the financial bits. Systems thinking, combined positive effects and all that. Practicing ERE has yielded me not just financial improvement, but definitely also a healthier diet and better physical health.

I was vegetarian already. Here's some ERE actions I took in terms of diet and physical health:
- Intermittent fasting yield lower body weight, better health, lower food and healthcare expenses, and less time spent on food.
- Successful kitchen experiments self processing food yield healthier food, lower expenses, and a happy wife. A few examples: carrot based spread, hummus, lentil burgers, soup.
- Active use of a food waste app yields lower food cost, more dietary variety, more physical movement and better health.

In other words, I've used the ERE framework to optimise my diet for budget, health and taste simultaneously. How could a WFPB diet improve things for me from there? Honest question.

[IlliniDave]

... In other words, I've used the ERE framework to optimise my diet for budget, health and taste simultaneously. How could a WFPB diet improve things for me from there? Honest question.

I think it would primarily be if you wanted to weight your optimization more heavily towards health at the expense of budget and taste. That's what I decided on for myself, though as mentioned I don't exclude animal protein (as in ruminate mammals and fish/shellfish, not bugs ). I often get raised eyebrows and sideways glances for my cuisine choices, and looks of bemused disbelief when I say my primary motivation in menu choices is protecting my liver, feeding and protecting my gut, and promoting muscle mass in the out years, more or less in that order, and that taste preference doesn't really factor into it, nor does budgetary hyper vigilance. I started from a place of fairly advanced metabolic dysfunction/early stage metabolic disease with the goal of reversing it, so I'm probably not the model case study for most ere-ers.

[Oey]

some people have "tried" a whole food plant diet, but have found reasons to return to old habits. There's an enormous amount of cultural and commercial force against any sort of change in diet, so it comes as no surprise.

but again, the science is there for anyone who wants to understand more clearly. I don't claim to know everything, I'm just suggesting the medical doctors who teach a wfpb diet know what they're talking about and can undo many of the objections that people bring to the issue.

to give one example. a common question is "where do you get your protein?". If you answer meat and dairy, do you know why you say that. The meat and dairy industry has spent billions on decades of advertising to accomplish this. But do you know how much protein you need daily? It is an established scientific answer. For me, it would be around 55 grams of protein a day. A whole foods diet provides this easily. In fact, nutritionists associated with wfpb say you can't design a wfpb diet that is deficient in protein, if you are getting your total caloric needs met. however most people eat far more protein than is needed. this is a strain on the system, and has other negative affects.

but now that i've said protein, there'll be a lot of perturbation amongst the crowd. we're so conditioned we'll fight for the meat and dairy industry. when the truth is we have autoimmune disorders, cancers and cardiovascular disease resultingly.

i've said too much. go to the experts, the doctors and scientists i've listed above and see. for those who've tried and failed, have you really followed the guidelines or have you made things up.

[IlliniDave]

but now that i've said protein, there'll be a lot of perturbation amongst the crowd. we're so conditioned we'll fight for the meat and dairy industry. when the truth is we have autoimmune disorders, cancers and cardiovascular disease resultingly.

I'll just humbly submit that if one is willing to look at the side that holds contrary opinions they will also find large numbers of highly qualified doctors and researchers who espouse animal protein as the superior form, or at least not demonstrably worse. The most intellectually honest will tell you that you can get there from here with or without animal protein, though going without might require supplementation for optimization depending on goals. I'd also point out that the BigAg corporate money that's inundated academia and the government in the interest of demonizing fat and animal protein dwarfs any advertising backing meat and dairy. The history of the USDA Food Pyramid is not a pretty nor ethical one. Like you said, all the information and expert opinions are out there. It's our individual responsibility to give the whole swath of it a thorough and honest review and choose a nutrition plan that best meets their personal goals and situation.

Last thing--a strong case can be made that the "Metabolic Cluster" of diseases (vascular/heart disease, diabetes, obesity, cancer, liver disease, dementia, and autoimmune disease) are much more closely linked to nutrition patterned after the food pyramid and have surged to epidemic proportions while red meat and saturated fat consumption have declined. Sugar and highly processed foods (products of BigAg) are almost certainly the culprits. Both WFPB and simple WF with high quality animal protein (regeneratively raised/grassfed/pastured/wild caught) address the real problems with the SAD.

[guitarplayer]

I stand by what I've written in that thread @mathiverse kindly linked to.

I have relaxed the additional conditions in order not to be a complete island. So, as an exception rather than a rule, I eat stuff with added salt, sugar and / or fat, and even have processed food sometimes. I think I am at something like 85% whole food plant based with no added sugar, salt and fat, and 15% processed (and most often with added sugar, salt and fat).

But yes, I would sign under the title of the thread if we allow some nebulosity around it. In particular, I think it makes most sense from the sociocentric perspective in the medium to long term.

[Slevin]

I'd also point out that the BigAg corporate money that's inundated academia and the government in the interest of demonizing fat and animal protein dwarfs any advertising backing meat and dairy.

Cargill annual rev: 177 billion
JBS annual rev: 71.1 billion
Tyson Annual rev: 53 billion
Perdue farms annual rev: 8 billion +

Please don’t post claims like this without some sort of backing source. Meat companies are an absolute behemoth in the US and abroad. Implying there’s “other advertising money” just coming in that can outspend them just to change public opinion would require an absolutely insane amount of discretionary spending power.

[theanimal]

Cargill annual rev: 177 billion
JBS annual rev: 71.1 billion
Tyson Annual rev: 53 billion
Perdue farms annual rev: 8 billion +

Please don’t post claims like this without some sort of backing source. Meat companies are an absolute behemoth in the US and abroad. Implying there’s “other advertising money” just coming in that can outspend them just to change public opinion would require an absolutely insane amount of discretionary spending power.

I agree that it’s worthwhile to share sourcing of the material you quoted. But the statement is not out of the realm of possibilities, given the interests in the current model that has a large emphasis on corn, wheat and soy. Looking at the non-meat/dairy focused companies, you can find just as big players. Point being, I’m sure there is a lot of money sloshing around from all interests.

Archer Daniels Midland annual revenue 101 billion
Bunge Ltd 67 billion
Kraft Heinz 26 billion
General Mills 20 billion
Kellogg 15 billion

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Ignoring the money for a moment and jumping into the abyss of nutritional comparison, the bioavailability difference of animal versus plant protein is substantial and is worth looking into and taking into account for those looking to eschew animal products. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6723444/