Starting from scratch in the minimum wage system

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jacob
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Re: Starting from scratch in the minimum wage system

Post by jacob »

Henry wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2024 10:49 am
There was a much discussed chapter in Evicted where a woman spent all her food stamps on lobster tails because it was her anniversary. Ironically, she ate the seafood alone. Everyone around her expressed frustration at her "poverty mentality" (there is a really derogatory expression for this behavior that I will forego using). However, her feeling was that her life was so miserable with no chance of improvement, that she deserves at least one meal where she could eat like she had money. A few days later her power is cut off. In contrast, I remember reading a post on this forum that turned my light bulb on. A poster spoke about he and his spouse stood outside a car dealership promoting financing and he smiled at the thought that he could buy 10 vehicles with cash. So there is an argument that poverty is the source of bad decisions where broke is the result of bad decisions.
https://earlyretirementextreme.com/on-h ... money.html (The 12th post of the blog... so ~16 years ago) I'm actually not sure where I got it from. I like to think I originated if not discovered it independently. When I first started out accumulating money (WL2-3), there was a car dealership across the street from the physics department that I walked by to go to the bank to cash out my 20CHF (~$15) food budget for the week on the way to the grocery store. My previous money-mentality was to save up to "fancy thing", then spend it, then repeat for the next thing. Back then, buying a car was just the next bigger thing. Culturally speaking, the idea of borrowing to spend was never even a thing. I'm originally from Jutland. We have a reputation for transacting in cash or not at all. To translate that sentiment^H^H^Hattitude into "American": If you can't pay cash, you don't deserve it.
Henry wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2024 10:49 am
Within the poor community, there are actually two types of poverty: grinding and stable where the distinction is most often found in who has subsidized housing. The goal is to elevate from grinding to stable. So if one wanted to Venn diagram ERE and poverty, maybe one could say that ERE is a voluntary decision to live in stable poverty despite income/net worth?
The goal of the poor person or those who try to help?

Henry
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Re: Starting from scratch in the minimum wage system

Post by Henry »

You should change your book cover: "ERE: How to impress chicks with the car you don't drive."

This is all beyond my pay grade and its a sensitive topic so I'm reluctant to spitball like I would in a "How To Get IllinoisDave Laid" thread. I'm not going to speak to grinding poverty. Stable poverty communities as I understand them, seem to share commonalities with ERE. For instance, the neighbor who throws a birthday party for her kid and makes a delicious birthday cake is asked to make a birthday cake by the mother of a kid who attended the birthday party who raved how delicious the birthday cake was. So making birthday cakes turns into a business for the birthday cake maker where she can sell them to other neighbors as well as barter with the neighbor who has the washing machine. So I think an ERE person and a person from a stable poor environment would have some commonalities in practice and mind but maybe not in bank.

jacob
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Re: Starting from scratch in the minimum wage system

Post by jacob »

Henry wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2024 12:58 pm
You should change your book cover: "ERE: How to impress chicks with the car you could drive."
Fixed that.

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Re: Starting from scratch in the minimum wage system

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote: Basically trying to fly before they're ready to launch. The Shepard-type pinches their pennies and live below their means even when their means are tiny. They have a long-term plan, a strategy for getting there, and the will to sacrifice the short-term. In both cases it seems like the two types find their respective tribes, regarding the other tribe as either hopeless or privileged, respectively.

I think the disagreement comes down to attribution-bias and its reverse. Attribution-bias implies taking credit for one's successes while blaming failures on society. It's reverse---call it humble-bias---is giving credit to society or the team for one's successes while ascribing one's personal fortunes to luck. Different people have different set points for this bias, which comes down to agency. Still, even without this bias, my conclusion is that they're both right but right about different things. Thus the endless disagreements.
-my emphasis.


I finished reading "Scratch Beginnings" (which I ended up liking quite a bit) and re-read/skimmed a copy of "Nickel and Dimed" and my conclusion concerning their differing strategies is on one level the same as Jacob's, but on another level very different. I agree that not attempting to fly before ready to launch was a critical factor in Shepard's success, but it wasn't mainly a difference in perspective in terms of "attribution bias" that made the difference; it was the fact that Shepard and the others he described as heading towards "success" actually took much more advantage of available social "services"; charity, government benefits, social barter, black market dealing than Ehrenreich. IOW, Ehrenreich behaved much more in alignment with the ideal of " individualism" than Shepard in their respective experiments which really followed quite different "rules." So, effectively, both (or neither) experiments proved that a human can't rise from "scratch" as a rugged individualist following the rules of pure Capitalism, but Ehrenreich proved (didn't prove) it by following the "rules of Capitalism" more closely, although without maximum penny-pinching skill, and Shepard proved (didn't prove) it by remaining engaged in social dependency longer than would be dictated by rules of " individualist Capitalism."

An extreme example of what I mean would be the tactic taken by my very frugal multi-millionaire friend when he applied for and received a discount on an expensive medication prescription even though his net worth was over $100 million. A more "ERE" relevant example would be the extent to which social services and/or access due to social/cultural capital are still being provided to somebody who continues to "live like a grad student" when they are no longer actually a grad student. For example, how relatively inexpensive room rentals in large Victorian homes in tree-sheltered neighborhoods in a college town will be described as being available to "students or young professionals" while a working stiff in the same college town has only much worse or much more expensive options. IOW, the fact that the childhood/dependency phase is much extended in members of the educated class creates more options for saving money through extended dependency for young frugal people who are also able to signal class belonging in some manner. And, it is also the case that what many non-profits, charities, and government based programs aimed at helping those who are impoverished are doing is providing more "parenting" or an "extended dependency platform" from which take-off will be better facilitated. A great example of this is the non-profit organization, Neighborhood Assistance Corporation of America, which helps Shepard's hard-working on-the-right-path blue-collar buddy Derrick buy his own home.
NACA walks its participants through the tedious process of purchasing their first house, a process that can typically be quite overwhelming for most people. Derrick went to every meeting and caught on quick. At the start, he didn't have a clue what he was doing. Five months later, he was quoting interest rates to me and showing me which neighborhoods were ripe for the picking in the real estate market.
Of course, one of the reasons why Shepard is better able to take advantage of social benefits during his experiment is that although from middle class background and college educated, he actually is a low-income/low-asset young person. So, for instance, he can and does apply for food stamps without committing fraud, and he is better able to thoroughly immerse himself in the experiment in a manner that allows him to find room mates and friends with whom he can engage in other forms of social barter. Ehrenreich describes similar social mechanisms engaged by her co-workers, but does not take advantage of them herself, because she is living more of a truly dual existence than Shepard. For instance, she describes her fellow waitresses at a corporate chain restaurant, "no one is homeless, or cops to it anyways, thanks usually to a working husband or boyfriend", but she does not allow herself an allowance for "working husband or boyfriend", because she has defined her experiment in a manner that makes it actually/perversely much more " individualist" than Shepards' experiment in which he starts out relying on charity for almost the entirety of his basic needs and continues relying on that charity until his "launch platform" is quite secure, whereas somebody with a more optimistic (less pessimitic/realistic) yet still individualistic outlook might have experienced more cognitive dissonance or guilt in relying on charity beyond hard line of necessity. IOW, there is a perspective from which it can seem as though self-aware extending dependency on other can seem "baby-ish" or "chicken" rather than rationally risk-averse, although it is likely to be the more effective strategy, whether humbly acknowledged or blind-Libertarian (I rose up fully formed as an adult from a cabbage patch) ignored. Another example of this would be taking the pessimistic/secure route of dependency on a corporate job to achieve FI vs. the more individualistic optimistic/risk of starting your own business, both of which are seen as examples of individualism or The American Way!

IOW, I think what I am suggesting is that there should be 4 quadrants, rather than 2, with one spectrum maybe running from Rugged to Soft, and the other spectrum running from Individualist Orientation to Communal/Social Orientation. Then making use of this model, I would suggest that Shepard proves that success can be obtained with a Very Rugged/Social orientation, and Ehrenreich proves that success can't be found with a Moderately Rugged/Individualist orientation. An experiment that was designed to be truly maximized in terms of both Individualist and Rugged would also likely entail a good deal more risk (not to be confused with "expectation") of failure. For example, if the rules required no car (Shepard), very small starting fund (Shepard), and no reliance on charity/society(Ehrenreich), the risks associated with sleeping in the open would have to be taken on Day 1. This would be similar (ish) to the rules of FIRE being changed to requirement that you can only work for or profit from your own business(es) rather than working/investing for/in established others/corporations and/or not allowing for any government "handouts" such as library books, camping facilities, or paved bicycle paths.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Starting from scratch in the minimum wage system

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Another way to look at it, if a perfectly rational human adult existed, every decision they made would be in alignment with expectation. Most actual humans either err on the side of pessimistic/risk-averse or optimistic/risk-taking. This tendency is sometimes influenced by gender/sex, culture, life experience, and often by personality-type/neuro-biology. One thing most men might not be aware of is that women often consider men to be more "babyish" in some ways than other women, along "Lion with thorn in paw" lines. This is because men often deny/repress the part of them that needs/wants social care (what I refer to as the juvenile feminine energy) to the extent that this need actually becomes more weak when expressed. This is also true of adults-on-balance whose personality type varies from perfect rationalism along the Adult Masculine/Juvenile Feminine dichotomy rather than the Adult Feminine/Juvenile Masculine dichotomy. So, for example, if somebody is not allowing themself enough freedom/fun/impulsive-expression/risk-taking-initiative in the Juvenile Masculine quadrant, they will also be less willing/able to extend care to others in the Adult Feminine quadrant. Similarly, if somebody is not allowing themselves enough care/security/vulnerable-expression in the Juvenile Feminine quadrant, they will not be able to exert Authority over self/others appropriately in the Adult Masculine quadrant.

So, for example, the functional method towards helping a Grouchy Old Man be more fluidly Giving (in his strong adult feminine energy) is not by guilting him or fighting him, but by encouraging him to have more fun.
This is also clearly demonstrated in just about every Shirley Temple movie ever made.

ETA:
Freedom entails Responsibility.
Don't exhibit Responsibility where you have no Authority.
Sensitivity entails Authority.
Don't exhibit Sensitivity where you have no Freedom.
Authority elucidates Freedom.
Responsibility elucidates Sensitivity.

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Jean
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Re: Starting from scratch in the minimum wage system

Post by Jean »

I think we undervalue the value provided by non financial assets we grew up with.
A healthy body provides a lot of thing that can be very expensive to replace.
A childhood that leaves you as a non traumatised adult is immensely valuable.
If I had to factor the value provided by those by comparing them to the market rate for a substitute, It would probably multiply my expenses by 10.
Thank you mom and dad.

Scott 2
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Re: Starting from scratch in the minimum wage system

Post by Scott 2 »

+1 on Matthew Desmond's books. He gives a much more realistic window into American poverty.

It looks like Shepard went on to wait tables, then release a similar documentary around 2017:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IRjkj6Ft8O8

Poking around that YouTube channel - he's tall, athletic, charming, white, obviously well educated, and a good speaker. His Wikipedia even confirms a basketball scholarship:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scratch_Beginnings

Outside of some nepotism, that's just about every privilege a person can have. If he can't make it in America, who will?

The documentary portrays him as a waiter, living in a one bedroom apartment, with a wife who immigrated to the US. They met during an earlier project where he traveled, according to this AMA:

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/ ... ?rdt=62771

There's a snippet in the documentary that makes me think he never overcame the attribution error.

It made me wonder what happened next. But all the sites for his various projects are offline. It looks like maybe he's a touring speaker:

https://premierespeakers.com/adam-shepard/bio

All I can find since the documentary, is this October 2023 children's fiction:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/201103425-guardian

I think he's entertaining, but didn't bite on the American Dream message. I suspect (hope) he knows better, but also knew that wouldn't make a good story. He seems business savvy enough to have targeted a specific audience.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Starting from scratch in the minimum wage system

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

This NYT article on math test scores and the associated tool for comparing/contrasting different districts gives a very good overlook of what I see going on at the front line with growing inequality of opportunity for Generation Alpha (whom I have dubbed Generation Lost Ragamuffin.)

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... overy.html

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... ricts.html

Unfortunately, although this is not a baked-in-the-cake reality not to be overcome with the youngest students, it becomes increasingly so as early as 5th grade. IOW, in the relatively brief time (for an old lady) I have been a member of this forum, the majority of an entire generation of Americans has either been given a wonderful opportunity to achieve Formal Operational level of functioning or faced terrible odds against this possibility.

ffj
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Re: Starting from scratch in the minimum wage system

Post by ffj »

@Scott

I watched the YouTube link. I confess I skipped over the saccharine sweet parts as I don't have a stomach for such manipulation, haha.

Dude hustled hard and he was successful. Is that a tall, white dude thing? I'm pretty sure his methodology would work for just about anybody regardless of perceived privileges. I think it is always important to remember that people in general are fairly good and they love to help others that are wanting to do better in life. It makes them feel good. They receive just as big of an endorphin rush as the guy wolfing down the free pancakes. What did Mr. Rogers always say? "Look for the helpers".

As long as you don't abuse others generosity you'll do well getting started. But you have to hold up your end of the bargain. The guy did everything right.

Thanks for the link.

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Re: Starting from scratch in the minimum wage system

Post by theanimal »

ffj wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2024 11:11 am
Dude hustled hard and he was successful. Is that a tall, white dude thing? I'm pretty sure his methodology would work for just about anybody regardless of perceived privileges. I think it is always important to remember that people in general are fairly good and they love to help others that are wanting to do better in life. It makes them feel good. They receive just as big of an endorphin rush as the guy wolfing down the free pancakes. What did Mr. Rogers always say? "Look for the helpers".

As long as you don't abuse others generosity you'll do well getting started. But you have to hold up your end of the bargain. The guy did everything right.
That’s one of the main points he makes in his book. He not only shows how to keep that mindset himself, but highlights it when he sees it in others. There were people from the shelter he stayed at and the moving company who exhibited that attitude and made it up and out. Judging by their names, they weren’t tall white guys.

For the purposes of his experiments, he only uses his high school degree, but there’s no denying that his later education likely shaped him. He does acknowledge in the book that he didn’t have the background and the cumulative life experiences that the other people had, that he was just doing it for a year after being raised by educated parents. However, I was left with the impression that the major difference between him and those that didn’t advance was lack of vices (not succumbing to drugs/alcohol), self discipline in terms of finances and the drive to better his circumstances.

Scott 2
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Re: Starting from scratch in the minimum wage system

Post by Scott 2 »

The mover he uses as a role model, is a young black guy, about a head shorter than him. Given location and names, I suspect the author was very much a social minority.

Shepard did hustle. His experiment is both challenging and interesting. Crossing class and cultural lines so effectively is impressive. I agree with the message to take individual accountability.

I don't think the results generalize, specifically to the problem of poverty.

I don't think it's possible for him to nerf his privileges. Could there be a better face for your moving team, especially in the affluent south, almost twenty years ago?

Look at the ease with which he creates rapport in the documentary, or even his news interview. That's a life of privilege shining through. Women want him, men want to be him. I'll never hold a room like that.

The risk is his anecdote justifying systemic failures, that do make the American Dream unachievable for many. Drugs are an easy example, but there are many. It's a tiny minority who remain in poverty, starting where the author did.

When you're starting from a similar position as the author, that boot straps message is appealing. The alternative discounts one's own efforts and results. Shepard has a great story for his niche.

As did the Nickel and Dimed author for hers. She plays on the American bias towards consumption.

Assuming Shepard lived the book though, I can't imagine he was blind to the reality. Maybe his roommate was impulsive because he grew up with lead in the water, for instance. Or his first moving partner drank to mask the accumulated pain of labor, or social anxiety from crossing class lines.

Volunteering at my local food pantry, I rarely saw people similar to the author. Even then, they were refugees from the war in Ukraine. ESL. Not legal to work. All assets frozen, a world away.

Shepard's playing on easy mode. Interacting with people in true poverty, I don't see how it's possible to miss.

I am too, BTW. That's been one of the harsher and undeniable lessons of my retirement. While it felt hard, I started on third base and coasted into freedom. I don't see it as an achievement to take pride in. I play it down, recognizing the very frivolous use of my good fortune.

Sure life's hard sometimes, but I got a better deal then 95%+ of the global population. So did Shepard.

IMO that lesson becomes clearer with age. That's why I sought later work from him. I was curious to see how the 25 year old evolved into his 40's, especially with that hustle mindset. He's lead a cool life, built up a smart niche. But his living also depends on sustaining the message.

I wonder why he dropped off online. I didn't dig further, to respect his privacy. But there must be some shift over the past seven years.

ffj
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Re: Starting from scratch in the minimum wage system

Post by ffj »

I'm more concerned with whether his methodology works because that is what is important here. I would be very interested to hear why this kind of behavior wouldn't make anybody successful, whether they started on first or third base.

Why does privilege matter in basic successful behaviors? And why would any group be incapable of replicating his simple strategies?

Not looking for a fight. I am truly curious here.

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Re: Starting from scratch in the minimum wage system

Post by AxelHeyst »

ffj wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2024 4:10 pm
Why does privilege matter in basic successful behaviors? And why would any group be incapable of replicating his simple strategies?
Example: An attractive white man speaking up with assertiveness in a group is generally admired and listened to under the bell curve of any given group in American society ("middle management written all over him."). An unattractive woman of color speaking up with assertiveness in a group is generally not admired and listened to due to unconscious bias. Same behavior, different result. Tailwind, headwind.

With some behaviors, the difference is qualitative:

Hustle, generally, will get anyone moving in the right direction. So a nonprivileged person might experience only a quantitative difference - their progress will generally be slower due to headwinds present in most (perhaps not all) arenas.

Behaviors like my example above might be qualitative. The white guy might get along well with assertiveness. A female POC might actually make negative progress with that tactic. She might need to employ a different set of tactics.

Personal observation: I've lost track of the number of meetings I've been in where I said something, echoing and reframing what someone lower down on the privilege ladder than I had literally just said, and I got the initial credit for it before I set the room straight.

I also imagine that there are arenas where privilege plays more or less a visible role. I have no idea, but I wonder if it applies less in firefighting because that's such a brass tacks sort of field. You can haul someone out of a burning building or you can't. You know how to set a [idk some EMT thing] or you don't. You hustle and are methodical or you're lazy and sloppy. etc.

From my experience, unconscious bias, being a subtle sort of thing, comes out rather clearly (for those paying attention) in subtle areas, like meetings, knowledge work, where evaluations of people's performance can be swayed by all sorts of subtle internal lenses and frameworks because it is fundamentally extremely difficult to actually know if anyone is good at anything.

Sort of an indictment of the structure of knowledge work, come to think of it...

eta: beyond what I wrote above, sort of the point may posters are making is that it generally is privilege that unlocks access to the basic successful behaviors.

e.g. One rung up the privilege ladder from me are people who were taught from birth that the way to succeed in the world is to network, schmooze, talk to people, climb the social ladder, etc. They'll have this behavior modeled from a very young age, by the time they get to the end of high school they're good at it. I was not taught this behavior, in fact it was totally off my radar (my parents are borderline hermits), and so I didn't begin accumulating any kind of social capital (in the way I mean it here) until my mid20's. And then I was very bad at it because I was literally trying to figure it out from books.

I *can* replicate this behavior, but I'm getting a late start and the likelihood of me making dumb errors (of the sort that real social climbers were figuring out in junior high school) that set me back are high. My headwind is high here.

One way to think of this kind privilege is 'training' that you received through no effort or decision of your own. I received training in hustle/work ethic, reading, nutrition, exercise, manners, standing up straight, dressing appropriately, control of my emotional state while in public, etc. (the other kind of privilege is the privilege to not be unconsciously biased against by the people who make decisions about my access to resources like jobs, raises, etc, based on how I look/who I am).

Scott 2
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Re: Starting from scratch in the minimum wage system

Post by Scott 2 »

At the individual level, I admire Shepard's behaviors. In the same situation, I'd aspire to some of them, though I don't think I'd be as successful.


As far as privilege goes -

When one starts with more, it's easier to get more. Especially when the unstated rules lean compounding in your favor. Since the results of compounding are exponential, it is a dramatic differentiator.

Poverty has the opposite effect. It weights the compounding against a person. Falling into a downward spiral is easier.

At a systemic level, breaking that pattern is essential. IMO individual agency doesn't always offer sufficient leverage. There needs to be a force multiplier.

The more disadvantage a person faces, the stronger that multiplier needs to be. Equal is not equitable.


I don't know where the right balance lies. But I think it starts with acknowledging the impact of circumstance. Desmond's books do a good job of this. Evicted, in particular, shifted my perspective on what's attainable.

It's hard to tell that story, without it looking like an attack on specific groups. In America, class and race are intertwined. Desmond navigates that mine field well.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Starting from scratch in the minimum wage system

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

ffj wrote: I would be very interested to hear why this kind of behavior wouldn't make anybody successful, whether they started on first or third base.
I agree. In fact, I think if you got your ass in gear and cut back on your expensive "addictions", you could be worth $100 million by age 90, just like my super-frugal rags-to-riches friend. Because I love to help others who are wanting to improve their lot in life, I will even give you a few tips based on my observations of his behavior/practices:

1) Dump the wife and kids. If you feel the need to get laid, pay cash for a hooker.
2) Find a financial product to sell. Then buy the business that's selling it.
3) Watch and/or read about the markets at least 10 hrs/day.
4) Eat mostly something that looks like clots of yogurt cheese floating in a bowl of fermented fruit.
5) Find a room for $150 in a highly disreputable, filthy Frat house in a city like Detroit and live there for over 20 years. Keep your 3 expensive business suits that look exactly the same on hangers in the closet. Wear unimaginably-ratty old clothing when at home.

Chop-Chop! ;)

Scott 2 wrote:It's hard to tell that story, without it looking like an attack on specific groups. In America, class and race are intertwined. Desmond navigates that mine field well.
Due in part to some oddities of my current location, the majority of my reasonably affluent private students are African-American, and the (slim) majority of my disadvantaged publicly-funded students are white non-Hispanic native-born. In fact, one of the 6 year olds who was talking about Daddy being in jail is a tiny red-headed girl with a cowboy name who has chickens at her house. She is sent to school in January wearing no socks, a tank top, with her hair uncombed and her fingernails filthy. Many of the poor white kids are grubby. The few Hispanic kids I teach are at the worst disadvantage due to the additional burden of ESL which is infrequently adequately addressed.

ertyu
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Re: Starting from scratch in the minimum wage system

Post by ertyu »

Here's the key to understanding privilege: it's not extra shit you get. it's shit you don't have to deal with.

The red-headed girl from 7w5's example above doesn't have to also deal with being black or physically disabled on top of being in extreme poverty.
A young, fit guy doesn't also need to deal with the limiting effects of chronic pain.
Someone male doesn't have to deal with his technical expertise being devalued due to being female. etc.

It's not that anyone privileged is necessarily getting anything extra. It's that they have fewer hurdles to overcome.

Everyone is privileged in some aspects and not privileged in others. To the extent that one is closer to young, educated, white, able-bodied, neurotypical, conventionally attractive, born in the sort of social circumstance that allowed them to reach adulthood without major trauma, having a passport from this country vs that country, and so on and so forth, one has less shit to overcome, both in terms of actual physical shit and in terms of people's preconceived notions, when embarking on literally anything.

Privileged people are often angry when you call them prvileged. What they hear is, "you didn't work for this, you don't deserve this, this got handed to you on a silver platter." That's not what they're being told, though. What "you're privleged" means is, "however hard you worked, someone with disadvantages ABCDE would've had to work 3x harder to get where you are."

7Wannabe5
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Re: Starting from scratch in the minimum wage system

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

ertyu wrote:Everyone is privileged in some aspects and not privileged in others.
Exactly. For instance, many old white affluent Boomer men (group most likely to be pinned as privileged) grew up with cold emotionally distant fathers who occasionally slapped them around if they got out of line. This is likely one of the reasons why they are the cohort most likely to commit suicide. It also contributes to a good deal of sexual/relationship dysfunction. This is why I tried to create a loop in which I channeled therapeutic support to a few members of this cohort in exchange for some measure of financial/practical support for myself that would then afford me the life-energy to provide intellectual support for the disadvantaged children. Unfortunately, due to the fact that. although otherwise net privileged, I suffer from gifted-child-syndrome/mild-high-IQ-with-associated-cuckoo-bananas, like many of my projects, this one proved too ambitious. Mostly due to the fact that I lack the extremely high level of patience* necessary to functionally interact with members of both of these groups simultaneously.

*Patience being the more feminine form of "work ethic." My multi-multi-millionaire friend was almost certainly the most impatient human I have ever met.

ffj
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Re: Starting from scratch in the minimum wage system

Post by ffj »

@Axel

I want to be precise here. I am not saying that everyone has the same advantages starting out or even on a continuous basis for that matter, not my argument. My question is whether anyone that is in the 95th percentile in terms of intelligence, mobility, etc. can't help but improve their lives if they employ proven methods to achieve their goals. Why wouldn't we celebrate these methodologies if they do indeed work, and would you concede there is an unconscious bias in a negative sense against this guy who seems fairly genuine in his efforts? The message I am getting is that all people that don't have his perceived advantages need not try, which is a horrible statement to make (I'm not implying you are making this argument).

I don't know anybody that doesn't have both advantages and disadvantages in their life, with the vast majority of the disadvantages surmountable, just like your networking skills or whatever else is wrong with you :D . Or mine for that matter of which I have plenty, haha. I think much more focus needs to applied to what is working however.

@Scott

Agreed on your points with a quibble on the equity part. How about we seek minimum standards instead for all people? Everybody does well instead of worrying whether your neighbor has more money than you.

@7

Once again I have no idea how to interpret what you write. More than likely this is a failure on my faculties. ;)

@ertyu

I would invite you to consider class instead of ethnicity when making comparisons. I know you don't live in the States so you are probably relying on whatever news you consume so I can understand why you would make such a statement about the poor, red-haired girl. It's probably not as binary as you have been led to believe.

Scott 2
Posts: 2858
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Re: Starting from scratch in the minimum wage system

Post by Scott 2 »

ffj wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2024 12:40 pm
The message I am getting is that all people that don't have his perceived advantages need not try, which is a horrible statement to make (I'm not implying you are making this argument).
...
Agreed on your points with a quibble on the equity part.
Agreed on the minimum standard. My point on equity, is that some will need much more support to hold that standard.

Some are looking at an impossible task.

If someone cannot pass the marshmallow test, let's not insist they lead a life that depends on it, and then blame them for failure. Instead, let's have paths to mitigate that and exercise their strengths.

It's further complicated by the "right" support varying with individual need. I'll do my best isolated in a quiet room. There are laws against doing that to people.

Generalization to society as a whole, is a dangerous implication of Shepard's work. That's what gives me pause.
ffj wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2024 12:40 pm
I would invite you to consider class instead of ethnicity when making comparisons.
Have you read Isabel Wilkerson's book Caste? She does a good job digging into the intertwined relationship between these two. Her background carries some bias, but I thought the breakdown was excellent.

IMO Shepard appeals to those displaced by recent shifts in America's class rules. We're moving away from ethnicity as the primary proxy for class. The shift penalizes hard working people, who were already struggling to get by.

I suspect that audience is part of why Shepard failed to find sustained traction. Others have since said what he only implies. Their offering is far more appealing, leaving Shepard without an audience.

AxelHeyst
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Re: Starting from scratch in the minimum wage system

Post by AxelHeyst »

ffj wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2024 12:40 pm
My question is whether anyone that is in the 95th percentile in terms of intelligence, mobility, etc. can't help but improve their lives if they employ proven methods to achieve their goals. Why wouldn't we celebrate these methodologies if they do indeed work, ...
I think we should celebrate these methodologies. The reason people get sensitive about it is because it's an easy and subtle step from 'these methodologies will help' to 'pff that guy did it why can't you'*, when the different starting points aren't considered.
ffj wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2024 12:40 pm
and would you concede there is an unconscious bias in a negative sense against this guy who seems fairly genuine in his efforts?
Dunno, I didn't follow the whole thing, doesn't surprise that there is, due to the sensitive and complex nature of the topic. Anyone who tries to speak/write/make content around these issues is in for a thrashing from someone, no matter how precisely they attempt to explain their assumptions. That's the price of admission for these topics no matter what position you espouse.
ffj wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2024 12:40 pm
The message I am getting is that all people that don't have his perceived advantages need not try, which is a horrible statement to make (I'm not implying you are making this argument).
I don't know anyone who makes this statement, is it being implied or is it being inferred? I can certainly imagine how easy it would be to get so disillusioned, frustrated, fed up, exhausted, etc at working and trying and hustling and seeing so little results from your effort, while you see other people put in the same effort and get way more results than you.

*An imperfect analogy: A long time ago in college I was training bodybuilding style I think, and I was obsessed with nutrition, diet, rest, nailing the perfect amount and intensity of exercises, etc. I put on 10 pounds in a certain time period. In the same time period my lifting partner put on 30 pounds. (I forget the exact numbers but I'm close).

The difference was surmisable. iykyk.

Now, that's fine. I was happy for me and I was happy for him. But the idea that he and I might show our before and after pictures to someone who didn't know what was up, and they might look at me and think of me as lazy, well that idea bothered me a bit. I was, I admit, a bit sensitive to how people perceived my results compared to his. It's important to understand that I didn't begrudge him his results or think 'I shouldn't even try'. But, dammit, there was a difference between us, and to the extent the reality of it wasn't acknowledged, it pissed me off.
Last edited by AxelHeyst on Wed Feb 07, 2024 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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