The Foundation

[jacob]

Sorry if I dragged the discussion off-topic. I do believe that there is a religio-spiritual-moral component of understanding the prospects of ERE2 that is sorely lacking in these discussions, but I also know why it's best to avoid these topics, as they tend to create the same level of flame wars as political topics.

That is a good point. I think the "moral component" is essentially a vague description of the "failure mode". It explains WHY we're doing something. It's the go-to for anyone who doesn't understand the entire philosophical system if asked what's important.

Roughly,
traditionalism: family, loyalty, faith, traditions
modernism: wealth, success, cutting-edge [technology]
postmodernism: community, inclusiveness

You can see this pattern in the failure-mode of ERE1, when people decide to eventually abandon most of the system/philosophy to focus exclusively of accumulating a much money as possible. The modernist values of fatFIRE wins them over.

The values of ERE2 of post-consumerism (a kind of post-postmodernism)---subject to refinement and clarification ---would be: multi-skilled [competence], efficiency (not effectiveness). and creative integration. You can see this on the forum in terms of what makes people go "ooh and ah" although we rarely push the values explicitly.

[jacob]

I mean if you can cook, clean, fix things, build things, find things, and develop relationships around you then that captures the renaissance ideal in an ice cream sunday. The rest is toppings and exploring the imaginal realm is the cherry on top for many.

Using a computer analogy, I see it as building/expanding and changing the OS. It's possible to run a web browser on both osx, windows, and *nix and a noob user will probably not be able to tell the difference and so conclude that the OS (all those technical philosophical details) doesn't matter. Yet, those are the details that determine what kind of thoughts and connections are possible. The more complex the OS, the more nuances can be expressed.

(Language is another metaphor. Math is yet another. For example, analytic geometry and synthetic geometric both talk about lines, planes, triangles, and circles, but the former makes it possible to see connections that are impossible using the later.)

I also disagree with the implication that all thought-systems cover the basics and that advanced thought systems are just the optional cherry on top. It is possible that thought-systems can miss something very essential like the cone that holds everything together. The metacrisis, which will ultimately collapse civilization, is a good example of the triad of traditionalism, modernism, and postmodernism having no answers.

[7Wannabe5]

The values of ERE2 of post-consumerism (a kind of post-postmodernism)---subject to refinement and clarification ---would be: multi-skilled [competence], efficiency (not effectiveness). and creative integration. You can see this on the forum in terms of what makes people go "ooh and ah" although we rarely push the values explicitly.

Gotcha. I am somebody who clearly tends to failure-mode towards the post-modern. Given that the post-modern might be seen as intellectually valid in terms of its criticism that might be described as anti-consumerism and anti-corporationism, but somewhat incompetent in terms of providing alternatives, would you agree with suggestion that another strand or persective on post-postmodernism might be post-corporationism? Or do you see post-consumerism and post-corporationism as two sides of the same coin?

Also, as J.M. Greer has repeatedly noted, the concept of efficiency is meaningless until/unless you define the terms. And if something like Quality-of-Life per Unit Petroleum Utilized is roughly what we are going for, then discussions related to the numerator are likely to always be subject to "lively debate" fail-mode.

[daylen]

I don't think we are in disagreement? Just coming at it from different angles/personalities? Clearly, I find the cherry on top an important part of the dish. Though, I do not think it is likely that we will solve the metacrisis by doing stuff more intricately and forming communities alone, hence my interest in AI.

[jacob]

creative integration

appropriate integration

[J_]

The values of ERE2 of post-consumerism (a kind of post-postmodernism)---subject to refinement and clarification ---would be: multi-skilled [competence], efficiency (not effectiveness). and appropriate integration. You can see this on the forum in terms of what makes people go "ooh and ah" although we rarely push the values explicitly.

That’s it: @ jacob and others please work those values out. It makes a discussion so much more understandable and useful than abstract notions..

[7Wannabe5]

@J_:

So, an example of what I think Jacob means by this would be basuragomi's super-cool posts about making tofu out of lentils. Is this what you think he means too?

This thread is giving me a weird flashback to my 3rd Grade Class for Gifted Kids.

[clark]

That is a good point. I think the "moral component" is essentially a vague description of the "failure mode". It explains WHY we're doing something. It's the go-to for anyone who doesn't understand the entire philosophical system if asked what's important.

Roughly,
traditionalism: family, loyalty, faith, traditions
modernism: wealth, success, cutting-edge [technology]
postmodernism: community, inclusiveness

You can see this pattern in the failure-mode of ERE1, when people decide to eventually abandon most of the system/philosophy to focus exclusively of accumulating a much money as possible. The modernist values of fatFIRE wins them over.

The values of ERE2 of post-consumerism (a kind of post-postmodernism)---subject to refinement and clarification ---would be: multi-skilled [competence], efficiency (not effectiveness). and creative integration. You can see this on the forum in terms of what makes people go "ooh and ah" although we rarely push the values explicitly.

Thank you for elucidating this, Jacob. I imagine that these points were implicit in the ERE2 discussions all along, but it was very difficult for me to discern these principles in the threads I read through.

Based on this, even the concept of FIRE itself is highly modernistic and thus is something of an obstacle to ERE2 if pursued too strongly. This is why, in my opinion, the MMM project, while being wildly successful in spreading the idea of frugality, has morphed into something of a FatFIRE project - because the focus has generally been on achieving the "success" of becoming an early retiree.

Eventually, when the crisis of modernity arrives, when FIRE is increasingly out of reach for most people, these values will no longer function. That is when ERE2 needs to be waiting in the wings. So how can we transcend the idea of FIRE itself? I guess I haven't really thought this through enough to have an answer. Maybe this forum has been doing this all along.

[Ego]

It's my posit that the renaissance man is the most adaptable and effective strategy for the uncertainty that is the 21st century and that the WOG design makes the effectiveness efficient! I think we have proof of concept for individuals for ERE1 when interacting with NPCs. The question is what happens when ERE1 meets another ERE1 or similar PC. This creates new systems of interactions and that is what ERE2 is: multiplayer.

Though, I do not think it is likely that we will solve the metacrisis by doing stuff more intricately and forming communities alone, hence my interest in AI.

Changing minds is key. It is extremely labor intensive for any one human to change the mind of another. If the past few years has shown us anything, it has shown us how thoroughly and rapidly the various AIs can change minds in mass. Today, the most accurate predictor of a particular belief held by any one individual is time spent reading vs television vs facebook vs youtube vs twitter vs reddit vs tiktok.

The most effective meta solution would be a version of ERE2 where an AI bot curates and feeds ERE1 content from all of the above to the renaissance man platform. Promoting pro-renaissance-man characteristics, filtering anti-renaissance-man posts and connecting individuals to create unique, unexpected combinations.

[J_]

I remember a post from @sky.He found a simple and very clear way to show his pupils how to reach financial independence. With the implicit notion of freedom how to live afterwards.
I do think that the idea of @Ego can work. Especially in the form of a very media-attractive form not only for young adults.

[J_]

A sprudeling bunch of chapters would it contain . With the wide range from environmental things such as to use less “energy” or to building practical skills yourself.
An example could be the site of nutritionfacts.org which teaches unbiased knowledge and ways( not influenced by the food- and medical industy) to be(come) healhy.

[Lemur]

The most effective meta solution would be a version of ERE2 where an AI bot curates and feeds ERE1 content from all of the above to the renaissance man platform. Promoting pro-renaissance-man characteristics, filtering anti-renaissance-man posts and connecting individuals to create unique, unexpected combinations.

@ego @J_

I'm skeptical of this as a solution for the following reasons:

Any system that involves filtering in / filtering out information (especially with an unproven tool such as AI) is going to create an information bubble where alternative perspectives are left out and I think its more important to think in terms of integration of information and values. Why couldn't ERE2 have room for specialists? If you filter out anti-renaissance-man posts, you will miss these people and they won't be integrated. IRL example - some people will never be generalists / or literally can't be generalists such as those with autism who have very specific skill sets / knowledge areas or those who truly only wish to become great at one area.

AI would probably fail in this task anyhow given that the data inputs are coming from journals where most of us are bordering orange-green SD values and learning systems theory / yellow values.

[daylen]

I am also skeptical of this project for the time being but for different reasons. Data inputs limited just to this forum wouldn't capture enough scope/context to be all that useful. Instead, multiple different agents could be primed from an already existing model (e.g. chatgpt) for a particular task (e.g. provide context and links to past forum content, or greet newcomers). The agents could iteratively learn or be fine-tuned based upon their forum participation while also bringing in new content from around the web (filtering from a larger context into an ERE context).

Though, this sorta seems like it is forcing a trend prematurely and it is probably best to just wait until AI becomes more integrated into the wider social systems. Currently, artificial agents are good at propositional and procedural knowing, mediocre at perspectival knowing yet rapidly improving, and lacking in participatory knowing. With time artificial agents that know enough in each of these areas (PPPP) may be capable of seeking out their own integration into sub-cultures like ERE.

There is something to be said for early adoption and the capacity for sub-cultures like ERE to help steer the morality of artificial agents. It would probably be sub-optimal if less wise sub-cultures spearheaded this movement.