hmm.. which car?

[Jean]

My relative worked in a Panda factory in Poland and his observation was that, while the actual quality of the assemly work done in that factory was decent, the parts of the car were just cheaply made, unreliable and not durable.

That how I imagine every car to be

[Seppia]

@zbigi yes Pandas are cheap for a reason. But if you drive 3000km per year do you really care if the suspension gives at 40.000?
If I somehow HAD to drive a lot I’d probably “invest” in a brand like Honda

[zbigi]

@Seppia There's also plenty of smaller annoyances. I.e. before the suspension finally gives in, it will irritate you with noises and squeaks. Not to mention that small malfunctions can sometimes lead to huge and costly ones. For example, in my Alfa Romeo a cheap timing chain broke way before it should, leading to engine blowup. Another engine blowup was caused by the fact that the car (which was 3 years old!) was already taking in large amounts of oil, AND the electronic oil sensor failed, which led me to believe that there's still enough oil and I don't need to top it up.

In general, cars are complex and brittle machines with low tolerance for any deviation from specs. Buying a poorly made one is just asking for headaches IMO. The more expensive Honda will reward you with 30 years of relatively problem-free service.

[Western Red Cedar]

There's definitely a selfish aspect to it. No denying that. Unfortunately, with those costs already baked into society, going car free means real personal sacrifice.

I'm not so sure about the notion that a car-free lifestyle requires a lot of personal sacrifice. I think the built environment probably has a big impact on the perceived level of sacrifice.

I lived car-free for a little over a decade. Sometimes it felt like a sacrifice, but many times it felt like I was getting more in return for that lifestyle choice - commutes through urban forests/arboretums/interurban trails, a better feel for the city, an appreciation for my immediate environment that only results from daily interactions as a pedestrian.

I initially only planned on living car-free through college, but I liked the lifestyle so much that I kept it going for another seven years after that.

[Scott 2]

I'm not so sure about the notion that a car-free lifestyle requires a lot of personal sacrifice.

What took you away from the lifestyle? The concept holds visceral appeal to me.

However, I've observed most car free enthusiasts eventually end up with one household vehicle.

I made it up until 27, through 2 dorms, 3 apartments, and a year into my current townhouse. The combination of walking, biking, delivery, transit, bumming rides, taxis and rental cars worked ok. But there were also moments of genuine suck - ie urgently walking a couple miles in freezing sleet, because the taxi to a medical appointment didn't show.

A year into the current place, we got a deal on a car through family. With costs well under $2k per year, life opened. Cheaper groceries. More work options. Easier access to shopping, medical appointments and entertainment. Between just reduced food costs and eliminating taxis, we were ahead financially.

When later medical appointments become more important - going without seemed especially daunting.

During early 2020, we went back to a lifestyle that left the car sitting months at a time. It was sustainable, but life felt smaller. We also still had the emergency option available, which offered substantial peace of mind.


Not to say I'd want a car living in a high density urban environment. But the places I'd enjoy, would be substantially more expensive than my suburban enclave.

I do scope out the car free suburban lifestyle from time to time. I don't like driving and might be willing to make the sacrifice.

But again, the car is so cheap, it'd be a financially unnecessary upheaval. And it's not even like maintenance is particularly time consuming. Two oil changes and an emissions test this year. I hired it all out and spent under $200.

I might be neutral on the trade offs, especially if I combined them with a move. My wife would hate it though. And for an extra $2k/year, the added optionality has been too good to pass on.

I am all for others getting off the road though! It's 100% feasible. Between services like Instacart and Uber, it's even easier than ever.

[Western Red Cedar]

What took you away from the lifestyle?

I moved to a rural location shortly after graduate school to establish myself professionally. This was a couple years after the financial collapse so I didn't have a lot of options. I could have made the work commute feasible with the bus, but it would have been much more challenging (probably impossible) managing other aspects of life. DW was able to find work near our apartment and cycled to work. We've been a 1-car household ever since.

I think, after the initial purchase of the car, the lack of significant expenses for operation and maintenance makes it easy to remain a 1-car household. The convenience makes it hard to turn back. I'm guessing it is much easier now going car-free with the ease of rides through various apps.

You are right about the small inconveniences though. Your post made me remember multiple complications with getting to various appointments over the years. Trying to find the polling location for my first national election at the age of 18 was a nightmare as I worked and went to classes all day.

Overall, the pros outweighed the cons though. When DW and I moved to our current location, we both opted to walk or take the bus to work for 5+ years until Covid, leaving our rig parked until we wanted to go somewhere on the weekends.

[Saltation]

I'm not certain what country you reside in but if in the US the list would be this:

Honda Fit (hatchback)
Toyota Yaris (hatchback)
Toyota Corolla (sedan), the very new ones are also sold in hatchback
Honda Civic (sedan)
Ford Focus hatchback/wagon

Make it a point to purchase the standard (base model). This will avoid as many of the new electronics as possible and will in turn decrease lifetime ownership cost.

If possible only buy hatchbacks and ICE based vehicles only: no hybrids. If keeping the vehicle long-term (until the vehicle is 15+ years old) the hybrid system maintenance and/or repairs will negate nearly all fuel savings. The hatchback function will increase interior space and functionality of the car for a very minor increase in price. Most of the models provided above are not sold as hybrids except the Corolla.

Make it a priority to find one with manual transmission if you have the skills to drive one. They normally don't require maintenance until 150k+ miles and if repairs are needed normally it is a clutch/bearing which is much less than an automatic transmission.

[loutfard]

We own one old car, a free hand-me-down from my parents, but we hardly use it. It's parked at friends in our second home country. They live near the airport, use it when we're not there and arrange maintenance and annual inspection. We only use it when there.

[ducknald_don]

Panda are the best car one can dream of. I'm looking at a panda with no back seat right now, so that a red deer could fit in it somehow.

I seem to remember the original Panda had lay flat seats so you could turn the whole thing into a bed. I never owned one so I don't know whether that would impress the opposite sex

I did own a number of other Fiats back in the eighties and in general the drivetrain was bulletproof. The reliability problems almost always came from the electrics and the body would turn into dust at the first site of a salted road in winter.

[guitarplayer]

I am talking my book: I put leading life with no car on par with leading live without television and see both as a lifestyle options bearing super high leverage.

so yeah @lilo9546, I would say ditch cars, leave oil in the ground and use bio-fuel to go about your business; it's tastier, too.

[Jean]

old twingo had lay down seat too. I wonder why it ain't a normal thing anymore.

[chenda]

old twingo had lay down seat too. I wonder why it ain't a normal thing anymore.

Maybe it's a safety thing.

@guitarplayer - yup, the benefits of eradicating mass car use will be enermous. The good news is that the youngsters raised with Uber are much less interested in car ownership and driving licences.

[Scott 2]

Most of America couldn't be any further from giving up their cars. Outside select urban centers, there is zero car free infrastructure.

I was in a smaller Midwestern town last month. Uber didn't even have cars available. The drive from my hotel to shopping was almost ten miles. We're talking winding country roads - no street lights, sidewalks or bike lanes.

The vast majority of the physical US is like this, or spread out even more. It's a completely different way of life, built entirely around the car.

I was talking you a woman who used to live in Utah. Twice a month, she'd drive 2.5 hours each way, to buy food at a decent sized grocery store. She moved to the town for work and did that for several years. It was normal.

[jacob]

In terms of status and car ownership, it distills into:

• The highest status is accorded to those who "can afford to not own a car" and "buy whatever car they want if they so want". Paying more for housing that is very close to work and all amenities. Paying others to drive them or renting whenever they want to. These people may still have a car, but if so, it's an impractical toy that's only taken out for fun. They're basically somewhere on the Jay Leno scale.
• The lowest status is accorded to those "who neeeeed a reliable car". They're critically dependent on a car both to get to their job(s) and amenities. They live in the sticks and their job (or jobs) is likely based on showing up at a particular place at a particular time.

In between, it gets a bit more complicated.

• Selective status is given to car nerds but only by other car nerds. "It takes one to know one." If you're in this category, you probably don't need to ask what impresses your fellow nerds. This includes those who fix their own cars and also those who just loves cars. Think Top Gear. Fahrvergnuegen is a thing for a select few. The ability to appreciate a good DIY repair is a thing for a select others. Overall, though, most people don't care or find a way to judge those who choose differently adversely.
• Financially literate people understand that the signal value of a car is easily financed and therefore easily faked. Just because someone drives a fancy car, it doesn't mean they're good with money. They're more likely to be a money clown throwing away $500/month on a lease. In their mind, someone driving a fancy car = no savings. "All hat, no cattle." Afterall, that's $500/month not compounding in an investment account. Twenty years of that (age 45?) is a quarter million dollars in compounded wealth.
• Financially illiterate people, who buy the most car they can afford (=as much as financial institutions will let them). In their mind, driving fancy car = good job and high income. (Who diz savings?). This unfortunately comprises the majority of consumers.
• Those who need to impress those illiterate consumers or clients. Think real estate agents, taxi drivers, aspiring chiefs,...You'll find them on mid-levels of each ladder in this system. In this case, I suggest that the best work-around for this is to keep your cheap practical vehicle meticulously clean rather than trying to figure out what the "best car" is. This will send a stronger signal in pretty much every value system I know.
• Cheap-skates who "DIY their driving" because they don't want to pay the premium of renting or paying others to drive them. They optimize miles/dollar. This comprises much of the ERE crowd. Choice of car will be all function, no form, which typically means a simple vehicle equally good at transporting meat or material. Small-engine gasser, hatchback, manual transmission, bought used. The most popular forum answer here is a Honda Fit (Jazz in Europe).
• Virtue-signalers and technologists, who pay a premium to make an ideological statement or simply because they think a certain kind of technology righteous. I include both owners of Sparks and Tesla Model S here. Although they're likely on different ends of the spectrum, they're picking their vehicles for the same reason.
• Lifestylers who think cars are bad or evil. They see cars as evil or at least not part of their aesthetic and take some pride in being "car-free". Compare to minimalists. They get the same social deal/judgment as the nerds. It takes one to know one and it might backfire ("I don't see no genius. I see a loser, who can't afford...") Others will form their own and usually rather less flattering opinions of their life-choices, admittedly mostly due to some kind of ego-defense.

Insofar one should draw a conclusion from this it is the following: Nobody falls 100% into anyone category. Likely, it's a mix with one of them weighing heavier than the others. Also priorities change as circumstances change or one gains experience.

To the OP ... so why not try leasing a fancy vehicle for a couple of months or a year to see if that changes anything in terms of how you see the world or how the world sees you? A relative of mine did just that for a year and found "no effect" and consequently abandoned the strategy... but it might be different for you.

PS: Before you ask again, it's possible to repeat this kind of status analysis for pretty much any idiosyncratic measure humans have come up with. In terms of playing the game, you can either be a small fish in a big lake or a big fish in a small lake. The former is the default. The latter requires finding your tribe.

[chenda]

The vast majority of the physical US is like this, or spread out even more. It's a completely different way of life, built entirely around the car.

Right, but it doesn't have to be built that way. It once had the world's finest public transport system, which was destroyed to force everyone to buy cars. And it could again.

Lifestylers who think cars are bad or evil. They see cars as evil or at least not part of their aesthetic and take some pride in being "car-free"

Is this where you would put ERE or somewhere else ?

[jacob]

Is this where you would put ERE or somewhere else ?

The ERE-way would be to figure out where and how a car fits within your WOG and then make a deliberate choice. As per my list above, there are many many ways to do that ranging from unconscious incompetence to conscious competence.

I have my own opinion, but it's only mine. I appreciate a fancy vehicle (I've been in a couple) and a good repair (I'm semi-addicted to car-based reality shows which is weird since I don't know much about cars---I think I just appreciate how the mechanics are able to "make something from nothing"), but I don't enjoy driving myself (I never bothered to get a US drivers license and I'd rather walk or relocate before it came to that.). I know how damaging these infernal inventions are in terms of planetary sources and sinks lost and destroyed. Curse you, Henry Ford! But I also see how they extend the human experience in terms of distance and speed.

If you're asking me (and not the ERE-method), "driving" should be reserved for emergency services, drag races, wars, and road trips. It should be eliminated for commuting and shopping. Not that I'm perfect in that regard. When it comes to judging the status of others based on whatever vehicle they drive, I've given up, so I largely assume the worst based on simple statistics. Judging anyone by the looks of their car has a very low if not negative correlation.

In that regard, I want to highlight a somewhat underappreciated book for everybody to read: https://www.amazon.com/Living-Well-Prac ... 1581602820 ... The author falls in my "highest status" category. He owns and enjoys a classic car without depending on it for a job or social status.

[Scott 2]

Right, but it doesn't have to be built that way. It once had the world's finest public transport system

I think there's a minimum population density required. Check out this map of the US:



The US has about 6x the population of the UK, but 40x the land area. A large minority of the country lives in places where public transit is not resource competitive. Any of the green and most of the yellow.

We're talking about getting those people to uproot their lives entirely. They are our farmers, low cost manufacturing, truckers, solar workers, ranchers, etc. Often their families have been established for several generations.

I'm pushing back because I think the disconnect can be off putting for people outside urban centers. If we want their buy in, we need to understand and respect how they live. In other respects, with those regions having access to fewer consumption opportunities, they are good candidates for ERE principles.

I do think more mass transit opportunity exists in the high density regions. There it's at least feasible, especially if remote work keeps traction. A couple hours of stop and go on the highway is a powerful deterrent.

[Slevin]

I'm semi-addicted to car-based reality shows which is weird since I don't know much about cars---I think I just appreciate how the mechanics are able to "make something from nothing"

Did you ever watch Cuban Chrome? That was my favorite of all time, just about people rebuilding old engines with cardboard an a dream, or an old boat engine. The circumstances making the show cool have always been horrific, but it led to the coolest and most ingenious bodging I've ever heard of.

[chenda]

@jacob - absolutely, as you rightly said in your book mass car ownership was one of the worse mistakes of the 20th century.

It's little short of appalling how the car lobby continue to demand ever more government coddling in the face of the climate crisis. Especially as there are so many better alternatives and so many public health benefits to them.

@Scott2 - sure, in remote areas public transport isn't likely to be viable and I'm not suggesting those working in rural industries should be penalised for using cars. It's urban areas which have no excuses

That said I think it's a bit of chicken and egg thing as if cars/fuel were more expensive or used more infrequently then rural living might be somewhat less car dependant. The town you mentioned might have had more amenities closer together, for example, or more rural people would simply congregate in higher density communities. I've even seen that here in my lifetime where village shops are other amenities have closed as more people drove to urban centres, although fortunately the trend is starting to reverse (in part due to more remote working)

[AxelHeyst]

+1 @chenda. Public transportation in the US has room to improve in both urban and rural areas, and I suspect it will in the next few decades, although it could go very ad hoc and there’s potential for it to fall apart (even) more.

Also the logic of rural and suburban infrastructure can be modified without much capx to reduce US car dependency and extend/support the viability of non urban living. There are much low hanging fruit to be had.

Where I live, anytime anyone needs an extra box of screws or case of beer it’s a minimum 20mi drive one way up and over a mountain pass. At the moment everyone does it individually. We could outfit a small unmanned general store instead, which would eliminate 80% of town trips and provide a social gathering hub thus not only making existing functions more efficient but add new ones.

Interestingly, there are ruins of a general store about a half mile from my place from when the highway was a minerals freight and stagecoach route into the Central Valley. As the logic of transportation fuels shifts, general stores and stops every 20/30 miles or so might make sense again.

Alternatively, or until then rather, we could arrange a system where anyone going into town consults a shared list of stuff people need, gets whatever they can, and leave it in a drop box down by the mailboxes. The fuel cost is shared per some formula/ app that makes it easy.

(Also, I’d note that as even as far in the boonies as I am, I can walk four miles to get a shuttle bus for $3 to nearby towns including a train depot that will then get me to LA in three hours or SF in six. Almost no one uses the shuttle, but the route and basic infrastructure are already there and could be buffed if ridership increased due e.g. to fuel cost increases.)