ERE City (US)

[jacob]

... and the linked "Urban vs Rural Sustainability" article, his points are really starting to land.

I recommend reading this article due to its relevance to the "ERE City" concept. In particular, the importance of

• living in an area with like-minded people who are mostly on the same page so as to maximize the ability to communicate beyond polite small-talk.
• being close enough to have frequent spontaneous interactions(*)

To me this reinforces the importance of staying within one (1) walkable area to avoid the need to arrange meetings in order to meet people. We already know from the chicagoland experience that despite having quite a few people within a 1 hour drive, getting together requires too much organizing (as well as an organizer) for it happen very often if at all.

(*) Even little things can make a difference. A few years ago, it became fashionable around here to install 6' (the maximum allowed height) vinyl fencing around one's backyard. The idea was for people to have more privacy when they were sitting in their backyard. Well, they got it, but at the cost of being part of the rest of the community. If community is seen as a network, you can imagine what happens when enough "nodes" start fencing themselves in. While this effect was observed in reverse, it also seems that in order to build a network in the first place, it's best if it's not structurally handicapped by each home being set up as its own private island.

[white belt]

Grist, not an argument: Simon Sarris on culture/movements/scenes being created in small spaces and then assembled in larger ones.

Interesting article. I'm not super well-read in Silicon Valley history, but I know it's something that has been covered extensively. Everyone is always trying to create the next Silicon Valley.

I do know a thing or two about streetcar suburbs and my post history serves as a testament to my appreciation of them. And what do you know, San Jose had streetcar lines running from its downtown to its outlying small towns starting in the early 1900s! What a coincidence.

Therefore, I tend to think that Jacob picked a great location for ERE HQ and that a streetcar suburb is a great place for ERE city. It might even be the case that the specific geographic pattern of the streetcar suburb is a more important requirement than any specific city. These suburbs can be found on the outskirts of most cities built before the automobile. They combine some of the network effects of density* and proximity to a larger city, with sufficient land space to have some autonomy over outdoor spaces. This also tends to make them more resilient against climate change effects like flooding, heat, etc compared to more dense urban areas.

These areas aren't perfect. Most have old housing stock, some have zoning restrictions, some are already heavily gentrified** or will suffer the same fate shortly, some are expensive, etc. Nevertheless, I think the in the USA they are relatively unexplored by those pursuing alternative housing/community in some form (not sure if this is because they are unsuited for such things, or because the default thinking points to either urban or rural).

Nevertheless, the fact that there have been many streetcar suburbs and still only one Silicon Valley likely indicates that there is more needed than just that geographic pattern.

* = I'm not certain what (if any) the optimal population density is for such a place. I've lived in a streetcar suburbs with density ~7k/sq mi and ~9k/sq mi, while it looks like Cicero is 14.5k/sq mi.

**= I don't know if there is a way to "fix" gentrification because it really just seems like another manifestation of Geeks, Mops, and Sociopaths.

[jacob]

* = I'm not certain what (if any) the optimal population density is for such a place. I've lived in a streetcar suburbs with density ~7k/sq mi and ~9k/sq mi, while it looks like Cicero is 14.5k/sq mi.

Yes, and the subway basically ends here, so it's only useful if you want to go downtown [to Chicago]. It's not useful for getting around.

If population density is important, then Skokie (~7k/sqmi) (yellow subway line) and Evanston (~10k/sqmi) (purple subway line) are the other two options. They're next to each other. Skokie is, as far as I know, where Chicagoans go to start a family and become boring suburbanites. Evanston is the home of Northwestern University (so college town!). However, Evanston RE prices are about 75% higher than Cicero. OTOH, it should be easier to find a place to rent given the abundance of students (or rent out to students for those with landlord ambitions). Evanston is also closer to the party scene of Chicago.

Examples,
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1333 ... 9338_zpid/
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1720 ... 8635_zpid/
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2309 ... 1035_zpid/
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2309 ... 5700_zpid/

I don't really have anything negative to say about Evanston except the price level. We almost bought there 10 years ago, so as far as I'm concerned it's pre-approved. However, rentals are easier to find in Evanston than here.

[theanimal]

Evanston is really nice. One of my sisters lived there for a few years and I have some family that still lives there. It's also on the shores of Lake Michigan with beaches and has plenty of cultural opportunities thanks to the University and the town center. If you wanted to go downtown, for all but the first couple miles you could ride the biking/walking trail along the lake. For the aesthetically minded, IMO Evanston is much more attractive with quite a few Victorian homes and an array of architectural styles compared to the Cicero/Berywn area which is largely comprised of uniform brick houses and buildings. Crime rates are also drastically lower in Evanston compared to the others and the surrounding neighborhoods are OK too. But yes, all that comes at a higher price for those looking to buy a home.

[jacob]

For the aesthetically minded, IMO Evanston is much more attractive with quite a few Victorian homes and an array of architectural styles compared to the Cicero/Berywn area which is largely comprised of uniform brick houses and buildings.

I should have put a question in about "desired home-type" in my form. One of the things that attracted me to our current area was the abundance of 900-1200sqft brick houses (I have a thing for brick). These were mostly built for working class people in the decade after WWII. Evanston is a pretty mix(*), but many of the homes are 6bd/3ba 2000-5000sqft Victorians or mansions. I consider having to clean, maintain, and HVAC that much a bug rather than a feature. "The houses are too damn big" is actually somewhat of a problem in many places I've looked at.

(*) Hinsdale is a notorious example of tearing down existing housing stock and replacing it with McMansions made out of vinyl and giant windows. Dunno if the same happened in Evanston. I still see a few traditional Georgians, Cape Cods, Tudors, and Sears-type bungalows in the Evanston listings. Whereas where I live, it's almost exclusively that type of houses.

[jacob]

It's also on the shores of Lake Michigan with beaches and has plenty of cultural opportunities thanks to the University and the town center.

Some have listed nature as a desirable in the survey. Other than the beach, how would you rank the availability of nature in Evanston? I realize that people have many different definitions and expectations of what they're asking for in terms of access to nature, but I figure you'd know the answer better than anyone?

[theanimal]

Some have listed nature as a desirable in the survey. Other than the beach, how would you rank the availability of nature in Evanston? I realize that people have many different definitions and expectations of what they're asking for in terms of access to nature, but I figure you'd know the answer better than anyone?

The Chicagoland area doesn't have much to offer in that regard and Evanston isn't much different. There are some forest preserves a few miles away west of Skokie, but that's about it. The answers can be varied for level of nature intensity but I think the baseline is some type of large mountainous/forested/plain-like area where people can hike/climb/ski/camp/whatever. I don't think it matters if it's a state park, private preserve, national park/forest or something else. But unfortunately, Chicagoland doesn't have any of that.

[jacob]

Survey summary

I collated the survey results using the highly scientific method of squinting hard at people's answers. I hope they are fairly summarized as this:

The main preference is for a low-urban area (1-2 story housing, quarter acre lots for possible gardening and spending time outside in the backyard). This can either by in the outskirts of a major city or near mainstreet of a nearby smaller town. Everybody hates suburbia.

Politically speaking, people are okay with disagreements but generally have some deal-breakers. This suggests selecting for a purplish area in a state that doesn't make national news all the time. Luckily, the preferred housing type and its associated population density also corresponds to a "purplish" preference for politics.

Pricewise, we're looking at 150k-300k. Most want to own, but there must also be options for renters in the $500-800/month range. (This corresponds to a 30 year mortgage at the low end.)

Most people generally want control of their own front door. Some are open to sharing a compound/land. In particular, some see ERE City as a potential second-home and these tend to be the same as those who are willing to consider co-owning and other alternative housing or housing arrangements. "Full-timers"/"First homers" prefer to own their own home or rent from someone else.

Nobody expressed any job seeking limitations (correct me if I'm wrong!) Everybody is happy as long as there's good internet, which should be the case within the parameters above, since rural is dispreferred by most.

In terms of amenities, the main two requirements are that the climate is "comfortably warm enough to spend most/all of the year outside" (how about 3 seasons for more options?) and that the area is walkable/bikeable with access to public transport (busses, trains, planes) for larger distances. Nature takes preference over culture. More so the ability to go hiking than visiting museums or access to bars and music. Generally people are willing to spend an hour on transport to get to either. A nearby "alternative living" scene is an attractor. Average crime is tolerated but the place should not look run-down.

[guitarplayer]

Just thinking, is this breaking the law when one of you US EREites sets up an ERE company or a research institute type organisation and sponsors a European’s working visa on the basis of skill shortage?

[jacob]

Just thinking, is this breaking the law when one of you US EREites sets up an ERE company or a research institute type organisation and sponsors a European’s working visa on the basis of skill shortage?

It's not breaking the law---there's actually a tried and true path for this strategy within the law already ---but it's pretty expensive and also pretty complicated. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EB-5_visa ... We're talking ~$1M in current dollars down to provide 10 full-time jobs. I doubt this is a realistic ambition level for ERE City. Certainly not something I'd personally want to get into or entertain.

Realistically and practically, when it comes to people without papers, "ERE City US" could serve as a hotel/long-term (90 day tourist visit stay) for short and longer-term visitors from other continents. I could certainly see myself offering this option using our extra rooms for extra income. This is also what @AH is pursuing. "ERE City EU" or "ERE City Asia" could do the same thing. It would be extra income... and so far, visiting and meeting this way has so far all been good experiences. Extra income renting out a room for up to 90 days or mutual semi-home-swapping.

[AxelHeyst]

I could certainly see myself offering this option using our extra rooms for extra income. This is also what @AH is pursuing.

Clarification: I am not seeking extra income from renting to other EREers. I'm into Boyle's free hostel concept. It's possible I'll come up with a scheme that involves $ changing hands, but it'd only be to cover operational expenses (e.g. property taxes, maintenance in excess of what I'd do just for myself, etc) if those ever exceed a trivial amount. (Food is a different story.) tldr: for QH is free to ERE people.

[jacob]

Heh! Fair enough. Anyone staying at EREHQ can expect to be paying rent if they want to stay longer term. My wider point was that whatever places or hubs we come up with will likely have some who accept visa-visitors in some form or another (free, airbnb style, ... ) on a short-term (<90 day) basis. ERE City can easily be a travel hub for the nomads among us.

[guitarplayer]

Ah, pricey those visas. Yes, these are good alternative solutions. Conversely, there are alternative visas.

[jacob]

Suggestion: Madras, OR (FEEDBACK REQUESTED!)

This is a small town (population 7500) in Oregon an hour north of Bend, OR. The climate is semi-arid with warm days and cool nights. RV/tent living possible although Dec-Feb is going to be chilly. Nextdoor mountains. Walkable grocery stores are SafeWay and Bi-Mart (an Oregon thing). It has train connections (BNSF, Union Pacific) [Nights full of toot-toot sounds?]. Prices at the 200k-handle. RE taxes around 2k/year. Cheaper than the Chicagoland suggestion.

Here are a selection of houses which are all downtown/near mainstreet within a few blocks of each other.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/12-1 ... 2831_zpid/ (includes backyard studio that can be rented out)
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/114- ... 6726_zpid/ (my favorite)
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/27-N ... 4648_zpid/
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/213- ... 6062_zpid/

I'm highly interested in feedback on whether this suggestion would be acceptable to those who answered the survey. Should I continue down this path or is this completely off from what you guys had in mind? In short, please rank this on a scale from "5-Would totally move here even if I'm the first to go there" to "1-I could never imagine myself living there".

PS: I forgot to ask, but I personally look for houses around 1000sqft. 1500+ is too big for me, but maybe people with children would prefer something bigger. What are you guys' preferences in terms of sizing and building type? The reason I'm asking is because any given area will usually NOT offer a variety of shapes and sizes.

PPS: Also, any feedback from anyone with local knowledge is much appreciated even if you're not into ERE city. I saw one of the houses listed as being in a flood plain.

[mountainFrugal]

I have driven through Madras, OR many times, but have not stopped.

It looks like you can cycle or take trails from town to various access points on the Deschutes river. See Willow Creek Canyon Trail.

World class fly fishing on the Deschutes: https://flyfishersplace.com/our-waters/deschutes-river/

With trout populations running over 3500 trout per mile, the first 50 miles below Pelton Dam offers some of the finest trout opportunities in the state. Add in an excellent yearly return of Summer Steelhead and it is hard to argue that the Lower Deschutes is not only one of Oregon’s finest rivers but also one of the greatest rivers in the West.

30 minutes from Smith Rock, OR - world class sport climbing.

[jacob]

@mF - Would that be the source of the potential flooding?

[mountainFrugal]

I do not think the river itself would be the problem for flooding. It looks like the hills to the East of town have a number of creeks that drain into the Madras town basin. The Willow Creek Canyon flows down into the Deschutes from town and needed to be formed somehow. HIlls directly to the East are ~2500 ft, Town is ~2200 ft, River is ~1600 ft. So water moving downhill from all the creeks to the East of town would be my best guess.

https://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=44.6361 ... h&a=c%2Csf

Zooming out even further the plateau above town to the East is ~3500 ft and moves up from there. The flood plain is one of the reasons there is Agriculture around.

Add: all the land to the Southwest of Madras is ~2700 ft with many canals to manage the water for Ag purposes leading through town and to the North. That is a large land area (S and E) that feeds into Madras.

[AxelHeyst]

My first thought is that a town that small and that far from bigger towns offers many of the downsides of rural living as well as the downsides of urban living. There ain't much to do, *and* your neighbors are close. For me, the only reason to spend time in/near a town is if there's a 'vibe' there. The proximity to conveniences and supplies (stores) is a small concern. Bend, the closest place I'm aware of with any kind of scene, is 1.5hr bus ride.

[jacob]

@AH - Yeah, I really want/need to get a better understanding of people's baselines. For example, I grew up in BFE, Denmark population 125 or so. The village had two things to offer. A community center that served as a space for weddings and anniversaries. And a small sportsfield with a couple of handball goals. Conversely, the nearest city (population 5000), three miles away, or a 20-30min bike ride, had a selection of activities (soccer, handball, karate, table tennis, swimming, ... adult education, a high school, ... etc). So from the perspective of my baseline, that offers enough. (Funny, but currently, my original hometown has turned into a weird airbnbish vacation town. There's a brewery across the street and further up there's an airbnb with a "1960"-theme. Weird!)

OTOH, Chicagoland offers pretty much everything. Naturewise, there are no mountains or deep forests, but there are 20 mile naturewalks and there is a sailing scene which is almost as challenging/deadly as the San Francisco Bay. (Michigan lake has crazy waves!)

In terms of scenes, I think the point of ERE City is that it creates its own scene although adjacent scenes would be helpful. I do note that Madras, OR has a "private flying" scene. I might be biased here.

[mountainFrugal]

Bend, the closest place I'm aware of with any kind of scene, is 1.5hr bus ride.

I do note that Madras, OR has a "private flying" scene. I might be biased here.

I see a potential for a shorter commute to the scene .