ERE City (US)

[grundomatic]

So after some thought, the best explanation for what I would like to help create is an extension of one of @jacob's metaphors--the one where Ramit Sethi is personal finance high school, MMM is college, and ERE is graduate school. I want to live on campus of said educational institution. While independent study, online discussions, and endless reading lists have greatly contributed to my education, what happened in class was only part of the college experience. If college life is fun because it's a bunch of people at similar places in their lives, exploring what it's like to live on their own, I would expect ERE city to be fun because it's people at similar places in their lives (post-retirement, or at least post-careerism/consumerism), exploring what life is like beyond working.

Yeah, I think therein lies the problem. Lots of "Everybody move closer to me"-suggestions, whereas the "I'm ready to move anywhere as long as it's close to one of you people" are few and far in between. The problem with the latter is that cost of moving is large for most people and that the network-effect has the smallest pay-off for the first mover.

If anyone would be able to shoulder the social "costs", it would be my family. Both DW and I would easily make plenty of new friends until everyone else showed up. Moving here was a product of my old pile of goals (not much different than the current ones), and while the job that moved me here is long gone, it might be a little ironic to move away when I'm finally actually able to enjoy the nice weather and bike-friendliness that attracted me here. "Don't be cold" is also a very strong goal of DW, and I don't know if a refrigiwear suit would be in the cards. Maybe I'll broach the subject after she's done working and it's 110 outside.

[AnalyticalEngine]

Given I'm moving anyway, I am willing to move to ERE city. Otherwise, see you all in Boulder, CO.

[ducknald_don]

Relatively cheap land/ houses compared to the rest of the country!
One of the oldest cities in the U.S.!
Unique history (founded by the French)!
Lots of free festivals!
Lots of free activities!
A culture of anti-work!
Effectively lawless!
Booze!
Live like an anarcho-eco-pirate!
Dance on the bones of your enemies!
Live on the absolute cutting edge of environmental collapse!

I'm not sure if these are the good or bad points.

[Slevin]

Otherwise, see you all in Boulder, CO.

I’ve met literally hundreds of people who recently moved to Boulder over the years I lived there, and almost to a fault they complain about how incredibly expensive it is. You can get 5-7 of either of the houses mentioned recently in this thread for the cost of one in Boulder, so probably not a great ERE city. I will personally always have a soft spot for it in my heart though (7 years in a place will do that to you).

If you’re moving up there and renting, get a place in old north boulder, preferably between Pearl and Iris, roughly around Alpine market. There’s a lot of density around there and hidden away multi unit housing. This lets you walk down to Pearl in about 15 mins (6 min bike), hop onto a bus on Broadway when you need, and have all the quick amenities within walking / biking distance. Plus north Boulder park is the best park, and you can walk from there up to good hiking trails. Boulder creek path used to be cool, but it’s basically gotten taken over by the local homeless population and is often now full of glass / trash / etc.

[AnalyticalEngine]

@Slevin - Boulder is definitely not an affordable city, I agree. I personally am moving there because of the cultural scene (lots of art and writing), and proximity to the mountains. I'd be considering somewhere cheaper if I wasn't already FI'd and still employed.

Thanks for the suggestion on old north Boulder, I'll go check that out. My plan is to rent out my current condo in Denver and then rent a much smaller apartment in Boulder. The rent from my current place basically makes it a lateral move financially.

[grundomatic]

Given I'm moving anyway, I am willing to move to ERE city. Otherwise, see you all in Boulder, CO.

Great, I'm signing you up! In all seriousness, sign a year lease and let's revisit it when that's almost up. It'll give DW time to decompress and figure out what she really wants, and it gives you a year to check out Boulder, save more money, and decide if you really want to live there. Hopefully we can also recruit others and settle on a location.

[Jin+Guice]

I am willing to visit all ERE cities that provide a free place to stay and transportation/ public transit from the nearest airport. The maximum distance/ effort I will put into transportation is exactly equal to the amount of effort I put in to getting to Jacob's house from some other neighborhood in Chicago that one time I did it.

[theanimal]

I've mentioned this before somewhere, but Chicago is the unofficial ERE city. There are already 10+ forumites who live in Chicagoland and another half dozen who live within a few hours drive. Yes, the trains and public transportation all runs towards downtown like a spoke and hub. Though with a car, you can get just about anywhere within the metro area within 45 minutes outside of rush hour. It would seem like one of the easiest moves would be to consolidate in a specific neighborhood within Chicagoland.

At the very least, something like a monthly meetup would be a good idea to build in person community.

[AnalyticalEngine]

@grundomatic - Consider it done

@theanimal - One of the things that makes the FIRE community in Longmont very effective is the MMMHQ, as well as the fact many of the people there live all on the same street. I've heard from people at happy hours up there that many of them will even stay within the same 2-mile block of the city for weeks on end because the entire community is so centrally located. If we could somehow get EREers on the same street, I think that's even more powerful than getting everyone in the same city.

[jacob]

@theanimal - One of the things that makes the FIRE community in Longmont very effective is the MMMHQ, as well as the fact many of the people there live all on the same street. I've heard from people at happy hours up there that many of them will even stay within the same 2-mile block of the city for weeks on end because the entire community is so centrally located. If we could somehow get EREers on the same street, I think that's even more powerful than getting everyone in the same city.

I think a central/walkable range is practically required. IIRC (there's an observation or a theory if you will) one of the requirements for friendship to develop is running into each other spontaneously and frequently. The same holds for community because what is a community beyond a group of long-running friendships. The situation in Chicagoland currently is that we're spread all over the place. Yes, it's possible to get together, but when asking for 2x1hr travel as the price of admission, it's already at the level of non-spontaneous. And if it's non-spontaneous, it goes on people's calendar where it competes with other things. As such, meeting up becomes an event that is scheduled weeks ahead.

That said, if you go by price<250k, lack of criming-activity, and public transportation, it quickly narrows it down to a smaller area. ERE HQ happens to be located in that area for those exact reasons. That is, the south-west side burbs of Cicero, Berwyn, Stickney, and Lyons. Recommend looking south of Route 66 (Ogden). Increasing the budget to 500k is still not going to expand the menu much and definitely not get anyone within hipster-range of Chicago itself except for a few places up in Albany Park which is about as far away from downtown as the aforementioned. In that regard, downtown is price-wise very ERE-unfriendly. The kind of place where kids complain they can't afford rent for a cool loft. Because they can't.

[jacob]

BTW didn't the whole MMM thing start when some other blogger moved across the street from him, thus getting the ball rolling. IIRC, that came before MMMHQ(?)

[AnalyticalEngine]

I believe that was Carl from 1500 days and the infamous Ramit interview, who then later bought out half of MMMHQ after the divorce.

[jacob]

That said, if you go by price<250k, lack of criming-activity, and public transportation, it quickly narrows it down to a smaller area. ERE HQ happens to be located in that area for those exact reasons. That is, the south-west side burbs of Cicero, Berwyn, Stickney, and Lyons.

Such as, for example,
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/6544 ... 6837_zpid/
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3309 ... 7587_zpid/
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7804 ... 3669_zpid/
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3311 ... 7623_zpid/
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3529 ... 1228_zpid/
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4012 ... 8941_zpid/

Obviously, you're not paying for pretty views. You're paying for a high walkability score and living in a metropolitan area with easy access to everything.

[7Wannabe5]

If you stick with price point less than $250,000, for $240,000 we can get this rustic cabin and 120 acres located near my second permaculture project. 120 acres is enough space for 60 of us (=$4000 investment each!) at current planetary population density of 1 human per 2 acres.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/N-Hu ... 2360_zpid/

It's located less than half hour from airport (and nearest hospital, hipster hangouts, empty scenic beaches and endless trails) that will hop you to Detroit Metro and rest of planet. Free food already on site in form of venison and berries. Excellent location for riding out climate change.


ETA: This is an example of the added resilience available with the concept of squad/tribe wealth. Sixty humans occupying for 12 months/year would be a bit much, but if you consider the possibility of 12 different ERE compounds (@$240,000 each) with average occupancy of 1 month/year (average 5 total humans at any given time) and total purchase price of $48,000/per each individual in 60 human tribe, the resilience/options/access per $ invested become obvious. You wouldn't even need to limit the concept to 60 particular humans or 12 compounds, and it wouldn't have to be the case that every participant buys in on every compound. For instance, maybe I would want to invest $4000 in the Northern Michigan compound, $4000 in the rural Spain compound, and $4000 in the near Chicago house compound, but no other, for a total of $12,000 invested towards having roughly 1/4 of my yearly housing/recreation needs/wants covered by ERE compound investment. Something like that, but none of lameness associated with conventional time share, much more flexibility and co-operation and overlap.

However, I should note for the record that even trying to make such an investment with my 3 sisters is now in at least year 3 of not-getting-it-done-due-to-hard-to-do-stuff-as-group, so ....

[Jin+Guice]

My plan for now is to move to either Detroit or Chicago when New Orleans becomes uninhabitable.

I have a small bus that I live in part time now and plan to live in it when I move. I also want to get two-three shipping containers to turn into a music studio, storage and possibly a crafting area. I'd also like to build an outdoor kitchen. Everything except for the storage would be shared in some capacity.

It'd be cool to get a bunch of people involved in this. Detroit would be easier than Chicago for this. I don't *think* it's feasible in Chicago. This is obviously just a pipe dream for now, though I do have $$ saved for this purpose.

A friend of mine is doing something similar to this in New Orleans right now, although his main goal is to get people to run his urban garden for him and has thus far found it easier to get short to medium term stay Wwolf/ help-x people or just rent his house at market value rather than long-term non-monetary tenants. There is starting to be a community of people who have been involved with the garden in some way or another who live elsewhere in New Orleans now that I run into occasionally.

I think @AH is also interested in building something similar where he is? I would also be interested in being involved with that and possibly owning/ having some sort of arrangement with a place to sleep out there (though honestly could be a tent). My concern with his place is that it's very remote (perfect for my proclivities for a small part of the year, but not perfect for me long-term), so there'd be no cultural/ social events outside the group and also a lack of women outside the group. Possible I won't care about one or both depending on my age?

[7Wannabe5]

@Jin+Guice:

It would be kind of difficult to get away with living in bus with auxilary shipping container units in Detroit if you didn't also own something somewhat resembling an actual house on adjacent lot. I was busted in short order when I attempted to live in my camper on my vacant lot permaculture project. Although, if you kept moving the bus around, and distributed the containers over several non-adjacent lots, that might work better.

There are a couple of very inexpensive to join anarchist co-ops already established in Detroit or very nearby community that I know of. Both are also highly involved in music/art scene. You might want to look into visiting one of these to get a feel for how to successfully create such a project.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trumbullplex

[chenda]

@7w5 - That looks like a very nice property, although I imagine there would be some car dependency. Maybe a few counties in the region could be promoted as ERE friendly and people would naturally gravitate towards them ?

This island looks great for the fat ERE crowd, although I wonder if a bunch of very individualistic people living on a small island might result in a lord of the flies situation.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/Midd ... 8947_zpid/

also a lack of women outside the group. Possible I won't care about one or both depending on my age?

I think you will always need women.

[Jin+Guice]

@chenda: Yes. You are right.

[jacob]

A friend of mine is doing something similar to this in New Orleans right now, although his main goal is to get people to run his urban garden for him and has thus far found it easier to get short to medium term stay Wwolf/ help-x people or just rent his house at market value rather than long-term non-monetary tenants. There is starting to be a community of people who have been involved with the garden in some way or another who live elsewhere in New Orleans now that I run into occasionally.

Well, there are two proposed solutions here.

1) One is to somehow agree on collectively buying a co-op out in the sticks and then run the forest or farm together. I consider this goal to be pretty close to impossible, especially with this crowd. But maybe I'm wrong. There's a reason, though, why such places and plans almost always end up being owned by one person and serviced by a revolving cast of short-term volunteers and/or funded by selling courses to and for "outside money". If you go back to the early parts of this thread, there was indeed talk of such a place, but it requires someone who A) wants to run the equivalent of a long-term stay hotel; and B) is willing to put up the money. For typical ERE-networths, this is substantial risk/commitment.

2) The other one is to somehow agree on individually buying or renting individual homes in a neighborhood that has enough of them for sale. This is what is happening in Longmont, CO. Insofar anyone wants out or decides not to engage with the community, all they have to do is to ignore the fact that there are similar people around them. If they want to leave the area, all they have to do is put up their house for sale or terminate their lease. They don't have to find someone to buy them out of the collective. This strategy is vastly more flexible. Should people decide on Chicagoland, for example, they only need to prioritize the chosen neighborhood over, say, being close to a particular bar scene or school district.

IOW, there's a difference between a collective and a community. Now, it's possible to have a collective that belongs to a community. For example, (1) can be part of (2), but (2) can not be part of (1) above. However, if you're asking for several acres where you can do what you want, you're probably not going to find very many other homes for sale in that particular area, so the Venn overlap between the two is relatively tiny in spacetime.

[Slevin]

Well, I think there's a missing piece there in number 2 @jacob. And that's also creating the "muddling space", which is where people of said community can just show up and hang out together, work on stuff, etc.

Fablab or makerspace is the probably what we would want knowing the people around here, with some space on the side for books / hanging out / drinking tea / working / whatever and this bit is absolutely insanely key. It can have dues or whatever to pay for cleaning / organization / etc, but those should be low enough that its effectively acting as a 3rd place for people to go hangout and drink coffee / talk about nothing / play board games / work on the latest cool project. These work best when that hangout is low key and chill. I can name probably a dozen of these in my life that have centered me around the place that I've lived, made me infinite friends, etc. This is where the "community" aspect is built.