ERE City (US)

[jacob]

An interesting *possible* future scenario for drylands areas is that everything goes to hell there because all the cities depend on the Colorado, leading to massive area depopulation... leaving behind just the scrappy little communities of cooperatively self-sufficient Renaissance permaculturalists getting along just fine with their loosely-coupled FEW (food energy water) systems, shaking their heads at the news reports of all the violence going on in more Northern areas where all the climate refugees jammed themselves into. One could argue that the SW is a uniquely ideal place for a web of EREers to settle...

Pro: Living in edge territories begets a certain amount of robustness. You're already adapted. You're ahead of the curve. Your moat is based on the incompetence of the vast hoi-polloi. The Good Life Lab (our kind of people) are/were located in New Mexico. Forsooth, the name of the town was "Truth or Consequences". I can't think of any better name for this particular strategy. Contrast this to people dying for the simplest reasons in a Texas snow storm or an Oregon heatwave.

Con: The whole water and food issue. Resilience breaks insofar the system is utterly dependent on one thing. This is where I worry about "rural". They may or may not grow good ... but they depend on cities, etc. for everything else including the tools they need to grow those foods. Being self-sufficient in the desert is nearly impossible.

[AxelHeyst]

Wow @AxelHeyst this is a very nice contrarian proposition. Plus I suspect you've not pulled it out of thin air as you are desert(ish?) based.

I had to come up with some kind of justification for my life choices . QH gets less annual rainfall than Tucson (but has a much more secure and abundant renewable aquifer). For the record it's not a strategy I recommend, just the one I happen to be pursuing because I must obey the inscrutable exhortations of my soul. I agree with everything Jacob said except "nearly impossible". I'd say "very difficult and unforgiving."

[Western Red Cedar]

The first two variables I'd consider when purchasing property are whether it is located in flood plain, and what is the water source. That is true for rural or urban property.

As Mark Twain said - "Whiskey is for drinking, water is for fighting"

One could argue that the SW is a uniquely ideal place for a web of EREers to settle...

I don't disagree, but I don't think paying at least a quarter of a million dollars to live in a city that relies on the Colorado represents a good investment. I'd be much more inclined to follow in the footsteps of Calamity Jane or Midsize Lebowski with rural property in the SW.

It is feasible the interested parties at the federal, state, municipal and individual level make some progress on this issue before it gets significantly worse (perhaps by limiting agricultural allocations for water-intensive crops such as cotton), but there are so many conflicting interests and so much money at play. The complexities of western water law only muddy the issue

Something like rainwater harvesting can work well, until there is a drought or until the government changes law or policy making it illegal (this happened briefly in the PNW).

[7Wannabe5]

I don't think paying at least a quarter of a million dollars

Yes, this alone seems towards "make the project incredibly boring." I mean, there are multiple reasons for the failure of my cuckoo-bananas Money Dimple project/plan in which I purchased dilapidated 480 sq.ft. house with similarly sized garage and tiny shed on 1/3 acre in rust-belt collapse zone city for $6000 with intention to create multiple mini-shelter options in alignment with retro-surburbia and pattern language, along with permaculture/intensive garden. But, if it had succeeded, it would have represented a major break-through in reduced shelter expenses. There is really no inherent frugality challenge in acquiring housing for $250,000 cash investment and associated property tax/maintenance/insurance expenses.

The way I approached the Money Dimple project was analogous to the 21 Day Challenge in ERE. I opened up Zillow for my entire state and then sorted from lowest price to highest. I would note that the approximately 1/3 acre I purchased was also within walking/biking distance of all sorts of city amenities such as groceries, night-life, maker space, arts institute with classes on welding, and employment. It was also surrounded by rural area, so within biking distance of a free beach, multiple hiking trails, and even hunting opportunities. And it was in an area with tons of fresh water and very fertile soil, relatively safe from climate change. Once again, yes, FAIL, but I only spent $6000 and I fairly easily sold it again on land contract when I became too sick to continue with renovation.

I think ERE City might be better realized as an experiment which would maybe be like a group version of "Nickel and Dimed" or "Scratch Beginnings." For example, we randomly pick a location on the map, and then we meet all have to get there from wherever we are starting with only $100/human and a backpack full of gear of our choosing, but with live communication and co-operation throughout. Then whoever gets there first starts building an instance of ERE City.

[jacob]

There is really no inherent frugality challenge in acquiring housing for $250,000 cash investment and associated property tax/maintenance/insurance expenses.

Boring as it sounds, this is a feature, not a bug, because it makes it possible to resell the property w/o a loss of time, loss of money, or loss of money/time. Most RE buyers pursue a strategy where they eventually want to sell again with a profit. Thus an important consideration when buying something is how easy it is to sell it again to someone else.

I think ERE City might be better realized as an experiment which would maybe be like a group version of "Nickel and Dimed" or "Scratch Beginnings." For example, we randomly pick a location on the map, and then we meet all have to get there from wherever we are starting with only $100/human and a backpack full of gear of our choosing, but with live communication and co-operation throughout. Then whoever gets there first starts building an instance of ERE City.

Scratch-beginnings/nickel and dimed/... neighborhoods are available within 3 miles of the chicagoland suggestion. You get the same type housing and everything... except the windows are boarded up, weeds are overgrowing, ... and like in Scratch Beginners, you'll be approached for a "spontaneous loan" walking down the street.

This is not something I'm personally into. Nevertheless, if there's a desire for a strategic gentrification of a neighborhood, I don't think it would be too hard to do both since there's already a median preference in this thread for "low-urban development". The easy solution is to choose a borderline place with a safe side and a sketchy side. This way people can choose their risk/reward.

For @chicagoland, a lot of the property is actually pretty standard: 25x125 lots with 1000-1500sqft housing. The price (ranging from 50k to 400k) mostly reflects how sketchy/desirable the neighborhood is. So if you can somehow bring about a change in an entire block or five, you got yourself a 5-10x bagger.

[7Wannabe5]

Boring as it sounds, this is a feature, not a bug, because it makes it possible to resell the property w/o a loss of time, loss of money, or loss of money/time.

Gotcha. But, residential real estate is not immune to risk as an investment, and as you suggested elsewhere, ERE rule-of-thumb for investment in real estate you occupy should be around 10% net worth. Therefore, $250,000 buy-in limits membership in ERE City to those with net worth of over 2.5 million (or, I suppose, more like $1.25 million given 2 human occupancy rate of dwelling.) Also, the loss of entire investment in $10,000 piece of RE is likely less than transition costs on $250,000 RE investment.

The easy solution is to choose a borderline place with a safe side and a sketchy side. This way people can choose their risk/reward.

Now you're talking! Here we go. Five bedrooms, 3 baths, and a brick coach house out back for $49,900. Just needs a bit of spit and polish.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1304 ... 2790_zpid/

Alternatively, you could buy 5 different $10,000 houses in the neighborhood of my Money Dimple project, and have more acreage for gardening/solar gain/rain-collection per human:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2322 ... 6893_zpid/

Or for $239,900 within biking distance of Money Dimple neighborhood, you can get this 3240 sq ft. brick beauty with its own woodworking shop:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2002 ... 5902_zpid/

[jacob]

Or for $239,900 within biking distance of Money Dimple neighborhood, you can get this 3240 sq ft. brick beauty with its own woodworking shop:
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2002 ... 5902_zpid/

Looks nice, but? ... what's the catch?

If you're serious ... or anyone else is serious ... make a post where the headline is: Suggestion: location, state, followed by climate, resilience, walkability/ bikeability concerns... and a handful of RE-for-sale links to relevant neighborhoods. I'll try to collate this links as the thread progresses since suggestions are already getting buried and hard to find if they don't follow the format.

So far:

• Tucson, AZ
• Eugene, OR
• Chicagoland, IL
• Madras, OR

Following the format makes it easier to find and compare, so start with "Suggestion: city, state" as the first line.

[7Wannabe5]

If you're serious ...

I sincerely wish I could be serious, but only got me about 4 spoons in my drawer currently.

However, my armchair commentary will continue along the line of wondering about the subjective, consensus-building approach to this topic/problem. If I belonged to a forum that largely attracted other eNTPs, and we wanted to create a "city" or a "clubhouse", I might first consider the expected downsides of ENTP on ENTP* interactions and how a designed environment might serve to ameliorate* rather than accentuate.

For example, I tried to imagine the 4 INTJs I know best IRL, living in houses with 4 corners meeting, and it seems to me (might be mistaken) that the social culture would immediately or ultimately be largely determined by their other-typed SOs. Another issue might be that the path-to-growth for INTJ is towards the Leader. If every member of a community strongly psychologically prefers their own Domain/retreat, how could this psychological need be met with minimum resource wastage?

*Make the bouncy-bouncy-bouncy house with way too flexible cloud-like boundaries a bit less so, while still meeting the "special" needs of such a community.

[grundomatic]

@grundomatic - I notice the ground is rather dry in most all of the listings to put it mildly. Have you seen anyone growing vegetables in their backyard?

Well, it is the desert. I know a few people that grow some things, but it isn't common. It's much more common to have citrus trees. I will say the one thing that worked well for me when I tried gardening was hot peppers, which is right up your alley, no?

Having said that, the library system has a seed library, Native Seed Search sells and banks heirloom seeds adapted to the dry climate, and here's Brad Lancaster's planting calendar, so there are some people gardening. I can't find the factoid where Brad says what % of his calories come from his property. I want to say 25%, but that's from memory, so totally unreliable.

Being self-sufficient in the desert is nearly impossible.

I'm not nearly as driven, skilled, or as independent as others around here, so I have no illusions of self-sufficiency. I guess I am proposing Tucson not as a permanent or even multiple decades solution, but as a pretty nice place to live in the meantime, if for instance one despises humidity or shoveling snow.

I get what @WRC is saying. I'm surprised @jacob encouraged me to do a write-up and is even considering it. What I appreciate about living here is that there is at least some acknowledgement of the limitations of the current system. Even if the actions taken are not even close to being enough, it's way more than I can ever imagine happening where I come from in the Midwest. Tucson Electric Power understands people using less energy is more sustainable than building a new coal power plant, so they subsidize shade trees for homeowners. Tucson Water has for a decade been banking their unused portion of Colorado River water by using it to recharge aquifers (ie at least Tucson has a water savings account). They also subsidize rain and grey water harvesting. The City of Tucson noticed people weren't using the bike lanes on the busy streets, so they adjusted and developed the "bicycle avenues" on less busy streets.

I'm happy to answer any other questions.

[AxelHeyst]

Grundomatic, your point that Tucson is already thinking about and doing something about the limitations reminds me of "The future is already here, it just isn't distributed evenly" (William Gibson) and "The ruins of the unsustainable are the frontiers of tomorrow." - (Bruce Sterling)

In some senses, the first places to run up against biophysical limitations will be the furthest along in adaptation practices. Or, more realistically, the first cautionary tales for other regions to take note of... we'll have to pay attention and see how it pans out. The question is, on a per-region basis, whether they scrape through or experience ruin, and how do we define ruin. Ruin to one person is "a more advantageous respawn point" to another...