Very true. Some people's "fun" are other people's "labor".
I think this is very much determined by one's stack. For example, an INTJ will enjoy the exact opposite of an ESFP and vice versa. I've [anecdotally] seen and confirmed this. When it comes to feeling awkward and wishing this was long over, an ESFP at a chess club getting excited about a math puzzle = INTJ sitting at a long table at a restaurant with everybody talking over each other.
These are the anti-droids you're not looking for!
Still, there's tradition and the Kegan3 desire to fit in with tradition.
jacob wrote:When it comes to feeling awkward and wishing this was long over, an ESFP at a chess club getting excited about a math puzzle = INTJ sitting at a long table at a restaurant with everybody talking over each other.
Doesn't it depend a bit on the level of conversation? The INTJs and INTPs who attend events where my sisters and I are infamous for talking over each other very rapidly claim to enjoy themselves, even though they are often treated like human encyclopedias in such a setting.
@7W5, @Jacob - Both of that is all very good points. I have found that attempting to develop shadow functions can be interesting for me on one level due to high openness to experience, but it only works if I am otherwise feeling great and have surplus energy. If I am burned out, I will default to Te first (which can manifest as grumpiness), then Se if I get even more burned out (which can manifest as something like comfort eating or seeking the right kind of stimulation), and then just shutdown if I push myself past that point. So maybe if I am looking to develop Ne/Ti/Fe/Si, I should reserve that for special occasions when I really feel up to it. Otherwise, because Se is in my stack and underdeveloped, using Se more is probably a better strategy for growth at this time. Which brings us back to getting involved in sports as a way to develop Se and use the tactical elements of the INTJ stack. That is probably why I've enjoyed things like skiing or hiking or even car racing obstacle courses as my "stretch activities," and also why those things are good for me if I've been working too hard all day using NiTe to write/code because they use a part of my brain I feel like I've been missing out on.
It seems like a reasonable strategy for interpersonal success is:
1. Find or structure environments to use the functions you're already good at. For me, this usually involves hobbies that encourage Te as the main extroversion function.
2. If environment cannot be maintained, use well developed functions to bridge the gap. This might look like narrating Ni in 7W5's example or maybe turning something like a sportsball discussion into a didactic discussion on tactics if one is at a loud dinner party.
3. Only rely on/develop shadow functions in a controlled environment so they don't fail and lead to shutdown.
@7wb5- Maybe ... but IIRC, your family tends towards high intelligence. The experience when surrounded by average intelligence is different. Also, it's not always enjoyable to have "your brain picked" as if you were a chatGPT made out of meat.
Well, yeah, I have little interest in "nice" conversations about everybody's weekend shopping adventures like I sometimes have to endure at elementary school teacher's lounge, where my contribution/speculation on how the structure of math story problems may favor different cognitive and cultural styles is maybe only appreciated by one or two others. Whereas this topic would be picked up and soundly/raucously ("You are so full of shit!" being a thoroughly acceptable comment) debated at one of my family gatherings, where "What have you been reading lately?" is frequent conversation opener.
...the intuitive little monsters very quickly suss me out...
Oh do they ever. I'd regularly observe them sniffing out weakness in and taking advantage of other teachers. Only so much I could do--I'd see them flip a switch even while they were still in my room, but "control" had been handed off to the other teacher.
Also, "liberty loving pants" made me laugh out loud. I'll often be heard exclaiming "don't tell me how to run my life!" to even the smallest suggestions. It's usually in jest, but it's often the truth in jokes that make them funny.
Yeah, I've actually had other teachers congratulate me for yelling, because I am err on the side of too easy-going. You just reminded me that one of my tricks for simultaneously keeping myself in Te/Se and the kids in line is to pretend that I am trying to win a prize for the cleanest classroom or extremely concerned about clean hands and tied shoes.
This also sometimes works when I am dealing with over-bearing Te/Se significant-others. Pick out just a couple areas in which to behave as if I am even more ridiculously particular than him. "Did you remember to wipe the sink dry after you washed the dishes?" If somebody is going too Gordon Ramsey on me, sometimes saying something like "Oooh, spank me harder, Daddy." will also work; kind of analogous to methods for defeating a computer that has taken over society in an old sci-fi movie. Of course, the worst case, very low functioning day outcome is that Te/Se will behave/speak like an azzhole, and I will burst into tears. Nobody wants to go there. It's like my Ti is always running a cold, rational counter, and when somebody "makes me (my tertiary Fe) cry" more than X times in Y months, the Swedish Relationship Death March Packing of My Bags commences.
And now for something completely unrelated to the above conversation
Work and Mental Health Update
I feel like the cognitive behavioral therapy plus significant focus on action in my daily life has helped a lot with the depression. I'm not cured by any means, but I'm improving enough that I'm starting to have the energy to be realistic about making the changes I need to make, which has so far amounted to really cleaning all the clutter out of my house and getting more proactive about work and relationships.
The thing about recovering from depression is I now realize how much it had been affecting my life. Cleaning a lot of clutter really cements the fact because it's like an archeology dig into my life. I'm throwing away a lot of hobby stuff I bought roughly six years ago, which is when this depression really started. It's like a record of when I didn't have depression and therefore bought hobby stuff because I was interested in doing things and then six years of nothing.
I think the depression was caused by my terrible genes and lack of coping mechanism when faced with work stress, and that then turned into a lifestyle snowball that made the depression worse. Undoing the depression amounts to a lot of cognitive reframing to change the self-defeating negative world view and then lifestyle change to learn coping mechanism and avoid repeating behaviors that cause depression.
I've also discovered a lot of the reasons I got into ERE were because I was in a bad mental state and it seemed like magical solution to my work problems. But the better I feel, the less I care about penny pinching and the more I want to spent the money I have on the things that are going to make me feel better. So I have been spending some money on stuff like getting reasonably priced new clothes, new towels, dishes that aren't from my college days, etc.
And with that, I'm realizing just how much the environment changes how I feel. Having a set of matching dishes reasonably purchased from Costco makes me feel better about my life more than using scratched up dying bowls from my college days or wearing exclusively free conference T-shirts and socks with holes.
On a side note, I've started taking melatonin and 5-HTP to sleep, and oh my God, these are amazing. Depression and sleep problems go hand in hand, so the sleep supplements have been a surprising game changer. They're not quite as effective as SSRIs but neither do they have the list of miserable side effects.
Work
I interviewed for a startup, and they really liked me and I think they were going to offer me a job, but I told the recruiter the timing of the job change would no longer work for me. The thing is, I don't want to be changing jobs out of depression, and I'm realizing I really need to save my energy right now for changing behaviors that cause depression. While I think I would be happier in a different job environment, changing jobs is a lot of stress that I don't need on top of the rest of the changes I'm making.
Still, I found interviewing very helpful because it helped me realize the variety of software jobs out there as well as practicing interviewing.
I think I still might change jobs in the future, but my current job is good enough for my present situation. What I am going to do in the meantime, however, is continue to have the best attitude about work as possible and stay on top of all the tasks I have so I can feel good about myself and continue to maintain a self-efficacy success spiral and have more to talk about for my next role change. I'm also going to try to network with other developers more to get a feel for what's out there better.
Realistically, I don't see myself quitting work until I have all my ducks in a row with my mental health, relationships, lifestyle, and freedom-to, if only because the routine and the money are positive flows to my life. It would probably be a different story if I weren't working from home, but WFH software jobs are the FI goldmine, and I see no reason to leave the situation I have at this time.
I interviewed for a startup, and they really liked me and I think they were going to offer me a job, but I told the recruiter the timing of the job change would no longer work for me. I'm also going to try to network with other developers more to get a feel for what's out there better.
I don't consider myself a developer because I always sucked at it in my estimation. But I'm always happy to talk shop about whatever projects people are working on.
Can you tell us more about this startup job that you opted out of part way through the process? Has that potential bridge been burned? I just can't imagine being a situation where I choose to end the process before the offer (or lack of) is made.
I've always held the notion that you should regularly interview around, even when you have a job just to keep sharp and to get confirmation about whether or not you're still being offered the best deal available. But I think if you end up doing too many of these that end up being canceled on your end you may get a reputation that would work against you.
@Veronica - It might be bad form to wait for the offer then decline, and then do that too frequently or use the offer to get more at your current role, but the industry is so competitive for employers that I don't think turning down offers would work against you unless you (maybe) got really crazy about it. I still had one interview left out of four, but I'm already trying to balance too much, and given this job was more demanding than my current one, I just didn't see it working out even though they probably would have paid me more.
Because it was a startup, their development process was significantly different than what I'm used to with my current job. Basically, they had no QA staff and you had to test your own code before sending it to prod, their entire branching strategy was just develop+master, and they also had no support engineers, so developers were dealing with issues in production directly. The CEO was from the game industry and said he tried to run the company like how video game companies are run, ie, very "lean" and "efficient."
Despite all of that, I did think it would be a good opportunity to grow some skills and wear some new hats, but you can see how this is a much greater demand on developers than your typical corporate gig where process slows down everything. I liked the greater focus and freedom on technical things it would have allowed me, but I'm just not in the headspace to be able to throw myself completely into work like that at the moment.
I did tell the recruiter I would consider jobs in a few months if they were still open, and I figure this is hardly the only startup in the world, so I'm sure I can find some other similar job in a few months if I decide to go that route. Plus I figure job hopping excessively is worse than just interviewing. I mainly went into this interview to see what a different company might be like and I got that information, so it's best to move on.
The CEO was from the game industry and said he tried to run the company like how video game companies are run, ie, very "lean" and "efficient."
Despite all of that, I did think it would be a good opportunity to grow some skills and wear some new hats, but you can see how this is a much greater demand on developers than your typical corporate gig where process slows down everything. I liked the greater focus and freedom on technical things it would have allowed me, but I'm just not in the headspace to be able to throw myself completely into work like that at the moment.
I did tell the recruiter I would consider jobs in a few months if they were still open, and I figure this is hardly the only startup in the world, so I'm sure I can find some other similar job in a few months if I decide to go that route. Plus I figure job hopping excessively is worse than just interviewing. I mainly went into this interview to see what a different company might be like and I got that information, so it's best to move on.
To me, that CEOs attitude would make me leave almost immediately. Because every person I know that worked in games told me it was hell on earth, absolute boiler room experience with the best devs on the planet being paid peanuts for their work because it's "fun", and having to simply toss away months of work and start over because "the artistic vision has changed".
I would probably agree that was the wrong role, especially if you are wanting to work on other aspects of your life.
I've also discovered a lot of the reasons I got into ERE were because I was in a bad mental state and it seemed like magical solution to my work problems. But the better I feel, the less I care about penny pinching and the more I want to spent the money I have on the things that are going to make me feel better. So I have been spending some money on stuff like getting reasonably priced new clothes, new towels, dishes that aren't from my college days, etc.
And with that, I'm realizing just how much the environment changes how I feel. Having a set of matching dishes reasonably purchased from Costco makes me feel better about my life more than using scratched up dying bowls from my college days or wearing exclusively free conference T-shirts and socks with holes.
Sorry, I gotta defend the honor of ERE here. Approaching ERE as an exercise in penny-pinching or sacrifice is a complete misunderstanding of its principles. As per the engineering triangle, solutions can be either quick, easy, or good; pick any two but only two. ERE is quick and good, but it's not easy. It's unfortunate that it's sometimes seen as a magic solution to freedom-from [personal problems]. The problem with that is that ERE requires fairly substantial surplus of mental energy to acquire this self-education in post-consumer thinking, which is what it really is. It requires the same amount of "hours" as getting a master's level professional certification. Figure 1000-3000 hours of concentrated effort to make it to the WL6/7 ROI skill level respectively.
Retail therapy---buying stuff to make oneself feel good---is quick & easy, but it is durable? I mean, it may be. Buying a "matching set" will resolve a hygiene factor if the motivational factor to create one out of alternative capital isn't available. FWIW, how to create a wardrobe using systems-principles is literally described in quite a bit of detail in chapter 6. It's one of the easiest subWOGs to make.
Regardless of how cheap FI becomes (due to high incomes), I don't think consumerism solves the freedom-to. It's simply too boring to spend one's life just buying things and experiences in the long run---it's too easy and therefore not that great. I understand that internal motivational factors can be[come] dead and buried... making it impossible to do anything w/o some externally imposed motivational structure. I suspect this is why/where WFH is a nice solution. It gives people something to do. This is also where DW (despite having 100 years saved) is trapped. Even if the work does not meaningfully add anything to the world, the external structure is necessary. I don't know how to create [internal motivation] since I've never lacked it myself.
@Jacob - The wording of my post was unclear, so let me refine what I was trying to say. It's not ERE that's the problem, more that during a depressive episode[1], my brain will latch onto whatever ideology or problem I have going on in my life and turn it either into a catastrophic disaster or a magical solution (black and white thinking). So the depression transformed work into a catastrophic problem and ERE as a magical solution.
Now, ERE is obviously not a magical solution; it's a lifestyle design philosophy that requires effort. But I was unable to really appreciate this distinction during a depressive episode, and the depression symptoms latched onto ERE principles and bastardized them into an expression of depression. Thus anhedonia became frugality, executive dysfunction became "work is evil," etc. This problem caused me to accumulate "junky broken possessions" lifestyle debt that's been sucking dry the limited mental energy I do have (because aforementioned depression is a constraint on my ability to function) that's an easier problem to solve by throwing money at it (because I do have money) while I focus primarily on managing the depression. In ERE terms, you might think of the "depression" WoG node sucking up most of my energy, and the "work" node no longer being such a problem because WFH is easy and I'm FI, so throwing money at problems caused by depression is a stop gap to get from being stuck inside the hole of "barely functional" to "more functionality."
All this said, I am trying to revamp my wardrobe lately, so I will share the exact details of what I'm doing in a later post because I am following a deliberate strategy with it, which is basically researching fashion principles and assembling a few core outfits that will last forever based on an intentional need for each of them. (Although I've found information on women's fashion is, more or less, a dumpster fire but that's a separate issue.)
[1] - I'm realizing I've never explained how depression actually works, so I will do that now. Depression can be separated into two categories--clinical and non-clinical. Clinical depression is a psychiatric illness, whereas non-clinical depression is caused by lifestyle factors and problems. The conflating of these two types of depression is the sources of a lot of confusion and mistreatment. For example, giving someone who has objective problems in their life SSRIs isn't going to solve the problem. On the other hand, telling someone who has a clinical psychiatric illness to just eat broccoli is also not going to solve the problem. Clinical depression is also a chronic episodic illness, which means if you do have clinical depression, it will recede on its own for a bit, even without treatment, only to come back later. Treatment of clinical depression, therefore, involves trying to reduce the frequency, duration, and severity of depressive episodes, but it's still a chronic illness because it's a neurological condition.
I have been diagnosed with clinical depression multiple times, and it has not gone away despite my efforts to undiagnose myself with it, which basically means I can't trust my own brain or behavior when I'm stuck inside a depressive episode. Keeping detailed journals for years (as well as practicing zazen meditation) has finally made this dynamic abundantly clearly to me. Without awareness, it's like this force just hijacks my thoughts and behavior, and I'm convinced it's 100% correct and true, even when it's not. With awareness, however, I have started to see in real time how the depression comes up first as this sort of embodied condition and then finds a problem to latch onto to manifest itself. Which is how I've come to realize most of my behavior and emotions over the past two years or so have been largely depression and not actually objective.
Yeah, this definitely happens. I'm moderately cyclothymic and when I cycle into depression, I usually experience it as the feeling of guilt. Finally, I recognized the pattern that as the days start shortening in August, I am likely to latch on to something to feel guilty about. This is one of the reasons I tend towards poly-relationships with irredeemable old men. They're like rubber plants you don't have to feel guilty about not watering.
I don't mean to downplay a clinical condition, but I would be depressed to if I lived where I grew up, surrounded by people I dislike and bad memories, driving around everywhere like some sort of car enthusiast.
Instead I get to wake up in a place where as soon as I go outside I'm surrounded by attractive fun people that I can strike up a conversation with. I'm embedded in a community of friends who have the same beliefs and interests as me (more or less, different enough to keep it interesting). I can walk or ride my bike to anywhere that I want to go. The hardest problem I have to solve is that there is too much fun stuff to see and do.
I really did not like my life or fit in or feel successful or get dates or have that many friends before I moved into a city. It's not a magic cure-all, but environment effects what you do and how you feel to a major degree. Without removing myself from the places I hated and finding the places that I could thrive in, I don't think my life would've gone very well. I got really lucky because I moved to New York City primarily for work reasons, but the first day I lived there I knew I would never not live in a city again. Before that, I never even dreamed that there was a place where I could fit in, thrive and be happy.
Of course it's not living in a city, but finding the proper environment that's important.
ETA:
I forgot to subject you to my unsolicited fashion advice.
Women's fashion has many more options than men's, which makes it either more difficult or more fun depending on your perspective. I don't know a lot about women's fashion.
I hear there are like 45 fashion seasons or something in a year, but I don't know anyone who is following them. I think trends can pretty much be ignored. Looking good is always in style. While that is culturally dependent, what it means to look good tends to change more by the century than by the month.
I think the best way to approach fashion is to figure out what kind of look you want to go for by looking at pictures of fashion by the decade, characters in movies and tv and celebrities or just magazine pictures. Once you figure out what look you are going for or what image you want to project, figure out how to do it with clothes that looking flattering on you. There is some body type restriction, i.e. 1920s fashion will not look good on some body types so if you really want to flap, you would want to combine the trappings of the Jazz Age with the some garment that is in the style of an era that flatters your particular body.
It also helps to realize that the clothes one choses project an image to others and consider what image you would like to project. Dress for the friends you want...
If you really don't want to try that hard, I still think the form fitting t-shirt, jeans and sneakers will work on just about anyone. Get everything in black and remember that the darkness of your soul knows no bounds!
The other thing one can learn about is the quality of the clothes one buys. Buying quality and learning is always fun, but clothes are so cheap and ubiquitous that you can also skip this if it's not interesting to you and buy more when your clothes wear out.
I buy all of my clothes in thrift stores or from the internet (ebay/ poshmark). It's worth going to a department store or thrift store with dressing rooms so you can try stuff on, if you're not sure what looks good on you.
AE you write:
“On the other hand, telling someone who has a clinical psychiatric illness to just eat broccoli is also not going to solve the problem”
In chapter 12 of Greger’s book how not to Die he discusses with as many words clinical depression. And gives proven advise which food to avoid and which food helps the brain to avoid/linder depression. Those 22 pages may help you. ( and no he does not mention brocoli ) I wish you betterment.
AE, if you think there is a possibility that you experienced emotional neglect or abuse during childhood, I encourage you to try going to a therapist that specializes in these two modalities: "Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing" (EMDR) or Internal Family Systems (IFS).
Because my problems were from trauma, I could not solve them with cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT). Only the above two worked. Apologies if I posted this already on the forum - Just wanting to spread the word.
Thanks for the well wishes and feedback, everyone. Honestly, I think I probably need to go see a professional at this point. Because otherwise I'm finding I have developed a tendency to overthink and nitpick every tiny detail of my life, and I think that tendency is making me miserable. Actual therapy/antidepressants, going on a bunch of hikes, and writing my novel is probably going to make me happier than spinning in circles and overthinking my life and problems.
I've also discovered a lot of the reasons I got into ERE were because I was in a bad mental state and it seemed like magical solution to my work problems.
I could have written these words myself. I don't know the solution, as I am currently depressed myself and having regular psychodynamic therapy. And my own mental state has been bouncing along at the "tolerable" level for a while without finding a route to improve.
But all I can say is you are not alone, and I'm wishing you the best
@Egg - My condolences. Depression is awful because sometimes it feels like "functional" or "tolerable" is the best life can give you. I think it's a sign of improvement, but I've had a few days recently where I actually feel decently happy, and it's made me acutely aware of how much I am missing out on because of the illness. It's incredible frustrating to feel myself slowly descend into less functional and see it happen in real time and be unable to do much about it every time a depressive episode hits. It's like I have to plan my life around getting super organized and on top of everything when I do feel good so that the depression doesn't set me back as much when episodes do hit.
All this said, I think I am slowly learning some important lessons and piecing things back together. What I'm trying to get better at is radical acceptance, which is just fully accepting my given moment is whatever it is and stop trying to fight/control it so much. Maybe I don't feel good some days, but just accepting that in a mature fashion and moving on to coping mechanisms saves me a hell of a lot of emotional energy over obsessively worrying about every tiny or large reason I'm there and trying to find something magical to get me out of that state.
That's why I realized my approach to ERE was problematic because I was trying to obsessively control everything all of the time with the hope that it was going to save me from myself and my experience, when in reality, just completely accepting myself, other people, and the world generally, then being grateful for the good things I have in my life helps a lot more. This is a depression-mindset thing that's hard to explain if you've never experienced it yourself, but it's the belief that unless I control myself to some ridiculous standard, I am therefore a failure and anything I do is not worth doing (the black and white thinking again). When in reality, these standards I have constructed for myself and others and the world inside of my head are totally unreasonable, not grounded in anything rational, and really only exist inside my own head to make me miserable. Depression is this constant battle to get outside of myself because the illness manifests by sucking me into this hopeless bleak internal landscape.
In some ways, my mindset has been shifting lately from trying to control everything to be more inline with "before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." I am who I am, my life is what my life is. I can certainly do things to improve myself, but at the end of the day, nothing is fundamentally going to "save me," and most of the misery I've constructed exists only inside of my own head and my own expectations. The best thing I can do is just be fully present and compassionate, both to myself and others, while still living my life and trying to improve myself as much as is reasonable.
If somebody is going too Gordon Ramsey on me, sometimes saying something like "Oooh, spank me harder, Daddy." will also work; kind of analogous to methods for defeating a computer that has taken over society in an old sci-fi movie. Of course, the worst case, very low functioning day outcome is that Te/Se will behave/speak like an azzhole, and I will burst into tears. Nobody wants to go there. It's like my Ti is always running a cold, rational counter, and when somebody "makes me (my tertiary Fe) cry" more than X times in Y months, the Swedish Relationship Death March Packing of My Bags commences.
) I wish you betterment.