How do you raise kids with wisdom?

[scottindenver]

Just posting this to get some feedback. I have been trying to figure out best practices to raise kids with wisdom. Big topic I know but its important to me and I need a few best practices and approaches to add to my tool belt. I don't have any answers right now but I have a sense for what is wisdom and what is not wisdom. I made a list last night of defining the problem and providing a contrast for what modern society looks like vs a wise society. Why zoom out to society? I think zooming out at least for a bit helps wrap my mind around the problem first before coming up with some potential ideas. And again this list is something I just came up with, I am not a wise guru or anything and this is one viewpoint.

Modern Society Wise Society
promote individual achievement promote community achievement
youth centered older generation centered
serve yourself serve others
emphasize celebrities emphasize neighbors/local leaders
mindless entertainment (netflix) deep thought and introspection
acquire things fix things and share things
loyalty to brands loyalty to values
culture of individualism culture of helping each other


That list could go on and on (and feel free to add something). Again this is just one view but it was helpful to me to see how screwed up the modern world is. I live in the United States and have seen the rapid decline of community just in my lifetime. Please share if you have seen this in other countries as well.

So how to make wise choices? One potential answer is try to shift preferences to list on the right and the FIRE community definitely has the fix things and share things category covered.

[scottindenver]

Dang, well all the spaces were stripped out of the list when I clicked submit, I hope you can read the list anyway or maybe someone can fix that.

[Hristo Botev]

I believe you said elsewhere that you are not a Christian, but John Senior tackled this problem a little bit in his "The Restoration of Christian Culture"
(https://www.amazon.com/Restoration-Chri ... 1932528164; which was a sequel to the diagnostic part in "The Death of Christian Culture"). And even if it's not necessarily "Christian" wisdom that you are looking to instill in your kids, I think you may get some good insight from that book. A couple things: First, he encourages parents to have their kids read good, old books, and he even put together a helpful list broken down by age; which someone collected here: https://onlinegreatbooks.com/john-senio ... ood-books/. Second, he advocates, as I suspect anyone would, in favor of getting kids real experiences in the real world so that kids can understand real consequences and learn from them: what happens when you step on a snake; fall from a tree; talk negatively about someone's mother; ignore that weird looking patch of green ground cover before walking through it; etc.--only one way a kid will REALLY learn the answers. At one point I think Senior even says something like every kid should break a bone at some point--not that you break their bone, but that you allow a certain amount of the kinds of activity whereby a kid very likely could end up breaking a bone.

My kids also get a lot of spending several weeks in the summer at an old school sleepaway camp with no A/C, no screens, and with all the hallmarks of the old school sleepaway camp--they also always tend to come back home with a wild array of interesting rashes, bat bites, lots of bee and wasp bites, and days worth of stories.

[7Wannabe5]

According to the definition provided by some of those in the SD community, emotional depth is what moves you from strategy towards wisdom. In order to gain emotional depth, you generally must either have a number of experiences that take to the highest-highs and the lowest-lows, and/or an inherent large pool of empathy (so that you can intuitively feel these experiences through interacting with others who have had the experiences), and/or a great deal of exposure to second-hand experiences such as can be found through exposure to great literature, music, etc. and/or interacting with loved ones who have had these experiences.

IOW, wisdom is less about making good choices yourself, and more about fully comprehending other human's bad choices. So, Jesus, for example.

[jacob]

I kinda see this forum as "raising adults with wisdom". Frankly, I don't think the difference in maturity is determined much by age or other conventional metrics past the age of 8 or so. Also see viewtopic.php?t=12779

To expand on 7wb5's point. There are two ingredients. 1) A great and wide deal of exposure to either first-hand or second-hand (or third-hand, etc.) experiences of humans both logically and emotionally. I don't think it has to be via great art or loved ones. I've learned more about the human condition from trying to understand how some, whom I definitely don't love, make mistake after mistake. 2) A system of frameworks to make sense of all these experiences. For example, here is a thread with the most used one's here: viewtopic.php?t=12908

Both ingredients are required. Not to start a huge discussion but the trope about how "I used to be a libertarian, but then I grew up and learned how the real world works" applies. At least it applies for those who start with the framework and try to add experiences later. The other situation may also hold: Having lots of direct or indirect experiences but not having a good system or even having a bad system for making sense of them.

[7Wannabe5]

The other situation may also hold: Having lots of direct or indirect experiences but not having a good system or even having a bad system for making sense of them.

Absolutely, and one of the reasons that trauma experienced in childhood is so difficult to overcome. However, it's also the case that experience themselves will often serve towards creating simple frameworks. For instance, the difference between being attacked by the first man you dated or cheated on by the first woman you loved vs. having that experience on your 7th or 23rd time round the block.

How might one's take on issues such as immigration or resource conservation be informed by experience vs. lack of experience, love vs. fear, good to great literature and/or science vs. bad to terrible news or spews? For instance, did reading Kim Stanley Robinson's fictional description of humans in an Indian village suffering a gruesome death due to wet bulb temperature rising beyond human body coping mechanisms cause me to wish to lower my own excess consumption out of compassion OR cause me to triple check my own web-of-survival for multiple means of access to air-conditioning and/or very large body of cold fresh water? Probably both, and it is definitely the case that my mind first goes to that emotionally gripping scene rather than a chart whenever I now encounter the phrase "wet bulb temperature", but I also necessarily hearken back to my own uncomfortable experiences with heat and humidity, or the intense anger I felt on an occasion when my rigid-asshole of a (thankfully now "ex") brother-in-law (hate) ordered my young son (love) to wait for him in a hot car. etc. etc. etc.

[mathiverse]

To what extent, does social media, television, and YouTube work as generators of second to Nth hand experience? So far only great literature/art has been mentioned as paths to wisdom via secondhand experience.

For example, what's the difference between reading Kim Stanley Robinson's book Ministry for the Future and watching it as a movie (if one were to exist) when it comes to learning the wisdom that might spring from the book?

Also if the model of "Nth-hand experiences" + "frameworks to organize" is a good one, then the internet platforms are unparalleled sources of the experience side. On one platform alone, one can find many variations of the same theme more quickly than you can get the real varied experiences or read various books. For example, searching for the "My partner has problem X" on reddit will give you many different ideas on how to approach the problem.

[jacob]

To what extent, does social media, television, and YouTube work as generators of second to Nth hand experience?

I think the answer depends on temperamental presets, that is, how much does the person relate to the other person having the experience. I mean about 3/4 of my general education (grades 5-12) was spent analyzing the motivations of fictitious characters of ostensibly great books. I found pretty much all of these characters to be completely unrelatable and thus I learned nothing from reading countless books. (The one character I could relate to resulted in a 3000 word essay which was about 3x the norm at the time. Finally!)

Going more meta ... it also depends on whether one's mind works in terms of abstract frameworks ("what general type of situation or person are we dealing with here") or large concrete sets of narratives ("this situation or person reminds me of Ann meeting Bob in XYZ story"). Insofar one doesn't correctly identify how the child (or adult) is likely to process their experience, the effort of instilling wisdom may be completely wasted for reasons of incompatibility.

[7Wannabe5]

@mathiverse:

Well, the progressions often offered would be Data-> Information -> Knowledge -> Wisdom OR Sensing -> Feeling -> Emotional Experience -> Wisdom.
IOW, depth matters as much as breadth. The internet is definitely unparalled in breadth at the level of Information, but depth is somewhat lacking. Obviously, the same holds true for literature, music, movies that only offer relatively shallow experience. For instance, I was oddly somewhat tempted by Barbenheimer, but "Nah." Less expensive to make my own snacks to much on while intermitently reading chick-lit and math texts. Anyhow, I certainly make no claims to wisdom myself.

[jacob]

Well, the progressions often offered would be Data-> Information -> Knowledge -> Wisdom OR Sensing -> Feeling -> Emotional Experience -> Wisdom.

I'm not sure this is how it works in practice. I suspect phenotypes temperamentally lock in on one such framework very early on and then proceed develop the other ones around that first pick, whether that pick happened by choice or cultural or parental imposition. IOW, I disagree with Piaget et al. that X comes before Y comes before Z. Humans are not concrete thinkers between ages 8 and 12, then abandoning that for abstract thinking for two years, and then switching to analysis for another 4. That's how the school system works, but it's not how humans experience it.

For example, if you teach abstracting to a human who thinks in terms of rules, they're gonna integrate your abstractions as a bunch of rules jamming your square peg into their round hole, resulting in a mess of misunderstanding.

[jacob]

Also, consider that gathering wisdom and maturing is a life-long process---keeping in mind that some never get started/stop around age 14---and that eventually one will have to figure out how to mature or not for oneself. There are various translations of the following quote. This is not necessarily the best translation. I provided my interpretation of the maturity stage in parenthesis. In all of the translations, there's an innate motivation though. "I" decided, "I" did, ... clearly Confucius was not about following edicts from conforming to a community or handed down from book of rules... or just punting on the issue entirely as do modern people, many of whom don't even reach the first stage.

“At fifteen I set my heart upon learning. (I was curious and wanted to see what kinds of systems of morality are there.) (Most humans don't even get to this point.)
At thirty, I had planted my feet firm upon the ground. (I picked/designed/altered one and made it my own.)
At forty, I no longer suffered from perplexities. (I resolved whatever contradictions I experienced initially.)
At fifty, I knew what were the biddings of Heaven. (Given my experience, I had enough experience to show that I made the right call. )
At sixty, I heard them with docile ear. (I was no longer bothered by anyone or anything disagreeing with me.)
At seventy, I could follow the dictates of my own heart; for what I desired no longer overstepped the boundaries of right.” (My beliefs had been internalized. I was one with my beliefs.)

I will say ... like with the Wheaton levels, there's no shortcut to insight or wisdom. Wisdom is something every human will build for themselves insofar they're so motivated---most are not and likely never will be. For example, as per the quote, there are many modern day jerks "following the dictates of their own heart" because they never bothered to set their heart on learning any boundaries of what's right, so to speak. Short-cuts lead to Dunning-Kruger.

As such ... maybe the best suggestion to "raise" people, whether young or old, is just to indicate that there actually is such as thing as some choices being wiser than others and that is a long/hard road and then let people decide whether to pursue that path...

[daylen]

The internet is definitely unparalled in breadth at the level of Information, but depth is somewhat lacking. Obviously, the same holds true for literature, music, movies that only offer relatively shallow experience.

I suspect breadth and depth appear as different sides of a similar rectangle for different temperaments. A shallow pool traversed without touching the bottom can involve the "deep" experience of learning how to swim (whereas sinking is a "shallow" experience).

If going into the internet with a purpose in mind, then the depth of the information you gather is only limited by the depth of the game you can conjure to make sense of it all. Likewise, if you go into a book without a purpose in mind, then the depth of the information you gather is limited to the game the writer is alluding to.

Also relates to Fi and Fe. Fi gains depth by dividualizing whereas Fe gains depth by inter-dividualizing. Fi is deep for a dividual, and Fe is deep across dividuals. Unsure how this relates to wisdom except that Fi wisdom probably looks a little different from Fe wisdom, but that growth in either dimension leads to depth and breadth culminating into the intersectionality of both. Pick any dichotomy and substitute to approach the limit of all that "wisdom" can be.

[horsewoman]

A few years ago I've listened to an episode of the BBCs "The infinite monkey cage", which stuck in my brain ever since.
It's called "The teenage brain" and the researcher states that we should parent the other way round as society does now - lots more freedom when the kids are small and firm support in the dangerous teenage years. (I agree with @Histros philosopher about the chance to break a bone as a child!).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b09pl662

Another thing I try to do is being my own person while being a good mother. I will always be there for my kid, but I will not give up my own interests and dreams and turn my identity into "mother" (as it is often expected!). That's a sure fire way for resenting your kids later.

A pearl of wisdom was given to me by an older friend whose kids are older than mine - a good relationship is always more important than discipline / being right. Once the relationship is damaged you have no chance of influencing your child's life on a positive way.

My kid is 15 so I will have to get back to you in a couple of years if those methods worked out.

[luxagraf]

I have been trying to figure out best practices to raise kids with wisdom.

Not to be too contrarian, but I don't think there are any best practices. The minute you start thinking of people as abstractions, e.g., "kids" I think you're doomed. In my experience the only thing you can do is build relationships with your children and try to help them get where they want to go.

[scottindenver]

A pearl of wisdom was given to me by an older friend whose kids are older than mine - a good relationship is always more important than discipline / being right. Once the relationship is damaged you have no chance of influencing your child's life on a positive way.

Yes from my experience and seeing others this is definitely true. A damaged relationship is incredibly hard to repair.

Some of my concerns are a little less deep. For example my son has started to fall into the consumerism trap already which is a little distressing. He seems to really listen to a lot of the marketing messages and is very obsessed with Michael Jordan sneakers. Of course I also listened to a bunch of marketing nonsense when I was a kid and I remember really really wanting a particular kind of sports jacket (Flear? I can't even remember. I wore the jacket for a week and then stopped). I can of course encourage him to think of the environmental consequences of just buying things and that sometimes helps him understand. But unfortunately I also understand Nike has an enormous marketing budget that shapes what kids/adults desire (Nike in their annual report defines it as "demand creation expense" and it was 1.1 billion in 2022). In the modern age it definitely feels like parents are completely outgunned.

[mathiverse]

Born to Buy by Juliet Schor was a great book on the effects on marketing on children. I wonder if there is a way to reduce your kid's exposure to it. I imagine that it is pretty challenging to reduce in this digital era.

[ertyu]

Not if his peers are into it and his coolness in the group depends on the sneakers. It was combat boots and band t-shirts in my day, but I get it. Uniforms and appearance matter to teens.

[PhoneticNachos]

Raise kids with values and principles you would want them to teach their grandchildren.

Give them appropriate chores and challenges for their age. Learn to say no.

Allow them choices to maintain control. They want A, but you let them pick between B and C.

As they get older let them know more about how the household budget and finances are determined, to let them have some agency of action in spending earmarked for their wants/needs.

[jacob]

The Freakonomics book has a large analysis of the influence of school choice, peers, and even the name of children. Might be worth looking into.

[macg]

A potential issue to zooming out to the society level is that it brings up the question of whether there has actually been a wise society. There are societies from history that we use as examples of wisdom right now, but whether that is actually true, or just the best parts of a society being remembered, is the question. One could also argue that no society could ever truly be wise, depending upon where you fall in the whole group dynamics discussion.

I think my parents brought me up in a way that opened the door to wisdom. I'm not sure it was on purpose lol, but looking back, I can see the following things had happened, which even at the time, were unusual compared to others I grew up with:

• Being introduced to all types of people - whether it be ethnicity, sexuality, rich, poor, etc. This was both because of my parent's jobs, and because of their personalities.

• Being introduced to reading, and learning in general at a very young age

• I'm not sure how to articulate this, but basically being introduced to perspective. For example, understanding that pretty much everything bad that happens is not the end of the world, you will get through it... Understanding that it's better to find the happiness in life

I agree with others that have posted that wisdom is not necessarily a list of things to learn, so much as a path to be set upon. Personally , I believe that open-mindedness, empathy, perspective, and always learning are the keys.