Meeting, Engaging and Seducing non-ERE Allies: Carrot Vectors

[Western Red Cedar]

.Part of this might be the optics of your lifestyle vs. my lifestyle. You are a successful sustainability professional/DINK/rent an apartment and your social circle seems to be similarly successful professionals etc. (I hope I haven't mischaracterized at all). Yes, it's weird by normal standards that you don't own a house and a fancier car, but you're about to go travel the world with your wife. You have nothing to be self-deprecating about. You can live your life and be pretty matter-of-fact about it. Your life is certainly unique and well crafted but clearly awesome and attractive. Duh!

I face a greater PR challenge. I live in a rusty tin shack on the back 40 of my parent's land out in the desert, I don't own a car, and I take showers from a bag suspended from a Joshua Tree. Explaining the simple facts of my lifestyle is a toughie. It sounds like I failed at life. Jokes on them because I'm happier and more fulfilled and stoked to be alive than I ever have been, by far, but how to explain this? It's easy to just be self-deprecating*, joke about having really low standards, about the leisure class at both ends of the socio-economic spectrum, and go on about my business.

You are pretty spot-on in the characterization. I will give a shout-out to 25-35% of my social circle who are more blue collar, high-school graduates that worked their way up or started their own business - people who now own their own construction companies, work for utilities, or started other successful small-business. One of the common features, though, among the broader social group is either middle-class or upper middle-class professionals. That is probably one of the subtle filters in my social circle when I think about it.

Thinking through your response, I can see how the full ERE lifestyle is a lot harder for people to grok. Easing into travel makes the broader conversation easy for DW and I because most professionals either value, or pretend to value, travel. People can project their own values and experiences onto that lifestyle.

I appreciate the ironic take on self-deprecation regarding Quail Haven and the layers it adds to your post

Ultimately I think what you are describing comes down to WL gaps. You might be able to move the needle a bit with some of the ideas you listed, but a large chunk of the population who are at WL 1-3 will always struggle to see the value of a WL 6+ lifestyle. I'm probably still swimming in WL 5 waters, so maybe that explains the ease of communication?

[ertyu]

AH, what would sell me personally on your lifestyle is leading with the fulfillment. "I am very stoked and fulfilled after being miserable for a long time. It took letting go of many preconceived notions to get here, for example I have let go of many traditional "creature comforts" and I constantly have to deal with the fact that my life seems strange to most people, but I'm happy"

It acknowledges and puts up front the reaction most normies/lower WL are likely to have on first contact.

When they say "I couldn't do this" -- I'm not saying anyone else should live like this. I'm saying that this is what works for me because [explain benefits]. Leave it to them to arrive at, "oh, that benefit sounds like it might be nice to have" - or not.

It's hard to argue with "this is what works for me."

What you're saying sounds a bit like what I do sometimes. When I am even unconsciously insecure about something or insecure about standing out because of being different, often I start wanting to "impress" people with how "hardcore" I am (this about hamming on dirtbag aspects). In conjunction with how you behave irt your lifestyle, might be good to spend some time with the full extent of what's there when it comes to living how you do as it relates to "others." Poke that shadow, see what shakes up.

[AxelHeyst]

Ultimately I think what you are describing comes down to WL gaps. You might be able to move the needle a bit with some of the ideas you listed, but a large chunk of the population who are at WL 1-3 will always struggle to see the value of a WL 6+ lifestyle. I'm probably still swimming in WL 5 waters, so maybe that explains the ease of communication?

Yeah... maybe? I feel like in 2019 I was living a WL1-3 lifestyle but I had a lot of... something like stored intellectual potential energy? locked in my head? I had a ton of anti-consumerist critique and rhetoric that I was on board with but for a variety of reasons I wasn't connecting the dots between what I wanted and what actions to take to get there. And not for lack of effort. When I finally found the community all that pent up potential energy had an outlet finally.

That's the kind of person I hope to be able to reach. I **wanted** to have this stuff explained to me. So I'm totally uninterested in trying to convince anyone that consumerism won't make them happy if they aren't at least intellectually on board. I'm not going to waste my energy walking through how modern society is a prison built in our heads one meme at a time. I don't know how to help those people.

I do very much want to figure out how to help people who were in my shoes, because I actually have some basis to do so. I know what it's like cuz I was there. I was mad and thrashing for way longer than necessary. I'd like to figure out how to find the thrashers and make sure they know about this stuff.

..

@ertyu - I think you're right on, and perceptive about the shadow stuff. Will poke. Thank you.

[Jin+Guice]

Like @AH said, I'm not talking about FI.

I don't think FI is for everyone. I do think ERE is for everyone.

One of my basic premises for semi-ERE is the realization that we can live an economically fulfilling life "below the poverty line" is not the same as the realization that we can save 33x expenses and live off of investment income. Those two things actually aren't that related except that the first one makes the second one easy to attain in todays economic environment.

Of those two, living WELL off of 1 JAFI per year is the revelation. Saving to retire is not a foreign concept. The retirement portion of Early Retirement Extreme is the least interesting part.

The early portion is also interesting. It's interesting because the assumption is that there isn't much else to do besides work. It's the co-mingling of the assumption that more money = more stuff/ " (purchased) experiences" = more happiness and the assumption that work is the only meaningful, moral and interesting thing that we can do for most of our lives, that keeps us locked in.

These assumptions are fucking insane. They are so far from the truth that once you get outside of them they are maddening. I used to be bummed that I grew up with these assumptions but thank fucking god I did, otherwise I wouldn't be able to relate to anyone I talk to.

Since I find these things to be deeply untrue, I think almost anyone could benefit from ERE.



I think the most difficult people to convince are upper middle class consumers who like their jobs. Imo, the entire house of cards is really about beating your neighbor while also being terrified your neighbor won't accept you and you won't be able to get the things you need if you don't play the game. Joe the job loving upper middle class consumer is currently winning this game, so he it's going to be hardest to convince him to join the other losers. He gets his kicks the way he is supposed to, by consuming. He genuinely likes his job, so he doesn't want to quit.

How does he possibly benefit? Socially winning feels good, so not there. Having a fulfilling job is working for him, so not there. But Jesus Christ we sell the upper middle class such hollow plastic fucking garbage. It's also not actually fun maintaining a giant house full of shit you don't use.

How is aspirational Allen gonna take it when you point out that his McMansion is ugly and made of barely higher grade material than cardboard, he lives really far from everyone he likes or cares about and needs and the furniture he heats/ cools in all of his empty rooms is made of particle board?

Most consumers aren't even good at consuming.

Quality is actually affordable now, but right as this has happened we stopped knowing how to recognize quality. This is another skill we've specialized away. Who has time or energy to know or appreciate anything about anything?

Another piece to this puzzle is that we were actually all mostly aspirational and not in need of quality. A mcmansion is not a mansion, it just signals mansion... at least it used to until everyone else got one...



Anywho... bit of a rant tangent there. I'm not suggesting we start with the hardest people. I just wanted to give an example of how even the hardest to reach people *could benefit from ERE. Anti-consumer strategy finally gives people the time to become more skilled consumers. To use the language of the book, the person above is likely locked-in pretty heavily with years of decisions and debt hanging over their head.

But there are a lot of people who didn't chose that life, who are trying to do interesting things, but suffer from the narrative that they are losers* and live in poverty. What these people need is funding. Like ERE is the equivalent of tenure or a small arts endowment or a small inheritance or getting your startup funded or a small business loan approved. Most people dream of economic wealth and what they would do with it and ERE just shows you that you already have it. Some people are just addicted to the dream and will never be happy, but other people could benefit from the knowledge of how to do a lot with a little and these are often the people who are painfully close already doing that.

Like instead of being like "be responsible and smart and figure out some stuff that is simple but not easy" can we be like "what would YOU do if 80% of your income was immediately freed up?" "what would YOU do if 80% of your time was immediately freed up." "what would YOU do with enough savings to not worry?" "What would YOU do if you could build your own house in four years." "what would YOU do with a $10,000 small business loan six months from now?" and like a bunch of other things that make up what ERE actually is that's not just FIRE.



*I was never happy with my music "career" until I found ERE. No one who works in music is happy. There is always someone higher up the totem pole and once you get to the top you have to work ceaselessly to stay there until you are inevitably dethroned. I've been on exactly one tour and it sucked. I know people who tour professionally. Sounds like it'd be fun for about 3-18 months. I play the level of clubs I went to as a kid that are still my favorite places to see shows. I've had transcendent musical experiences on stage. I've played at major festivals. I've gotten access to the weirdest shit I've ever seen. It'd be cool to up my musicianship or have some new experiences, but mostly I'm fine with doing more of the same. That is what I call success and personal fulfillment. That is the power of ERE.

[AxelHeyst]

Like instead of being like "be responsible and smart and figure out some stuff that is simple but not easy" can we be like "what would YOU do if 80% of your income was immediately freed up?" "what would YOU do if 80% of your time was immediately freed up." "what would YOU do with enough savings to not worry?" "What would YOU do if you could build your own house in four years." "what would YOU do with a $10,000 small business loan six months from now?" and like a bunch of other things that make up what ERE actually is that's not just FIRE.

Think we found some PR ideas. I'm gonna steal these and experiment with them.

[Western Red Cedar]

Apologies for steering the conversation towards financial independence. I consider financial stability or security as a major piece of FI. When I read this quote I thought you were primarily talking about financial behavior:

I run into people every day who could benefit from this information. They're in some personal crisis or crisis of consumerist faith, but they aren't quite getting it. I don't even actually care if they do ERE precisely, just more fully embracing anti-consumerism and/ or bettering there lives by saving/ working less and not mindlessly consuming because almost everyone thinks that's the only way.

Not to get too hung up on the FI component, but I do think that is a major carrot for those who start to get interested in ERE. One potential consequence of decentralizing FI in one's system (viewtopic.php?t=12663) and trying to communicate the lifestyle to others is that I could see ERE quickly start to sound like other lifestyle philosophies that people love to talk about.

From the outsiders perspective, SemiERE might just look like someone working a part-time job and engaging in some cool hobbies. Or someone who takes some regular breaks between periods of work. Maybe not much different than what a lot of folks do in their youth?

[AxelHeyst]

From the OP:

As FIRE becomes more mainstream it will become less radical and more like the mainstream. The status quo is powerful and it fights back very effectively. That's the fate of most radical movements that make it out of being totally marginalized forever. FIRE is gaining mainstream traction these days, but exactly no one I know who is doing cool shit is even slightly interested in it when they hear about it.

BUT what is our main thing? It's sparking the FIRE movement. We need an answer when people are like "what am I going to do when I retire?" Like when we were just trying to retire ourselves we could be like "oh well sucks to sucks loser" but if we want people who either don't get or aren't interested in FIRE to work with us, that's not going to work anymore. And we need an answer that sounds better than all of the consumer shit that is actually like pretty fun, in a sugar is pretty tasty kind of way, AND ingrained into people's psyche from birth.

This is a thread about people who aren't attracted to FIRE but might like ERE anyway. No one anytime soon is going to forget or fail to notice that ERE has something to do with FIRE, because it's in the name. Talking about FIRE is a solved problem. We're talking about a different as-yet-unsolved problem.

[Jin+Guice]

Yes! I’m NOT saying “FIRE is out” or “don’t do FIRE.” If FIRE appeals to someone, that’s great!

But ERE is more than FIRE. FIRE is a known cultural movement now, which means it will be made fun of and bastardized and simplified. You used to have to find FIRE. Now FIRE can find you. Has anyone read or watched the MMM articles/ interviews? It’s all like “don’t buy a latte.”

Being unknown, ERE has more flexibility. FIRE is simple. ERE is not simple bc ERE is multiple things with multiple ways of doing them.



I’m operating under the assumption that:

ERE2 is about building resilient communities of multiple ERE people engaging IRL

And

We do not currently have enough people to do this, thus we need to recruit. Which I think is great bc ERE could help a lot of people.

FIRE recruitment is outsourced to MMM plus the million other FIRE blogs. As such we have less control, but those guys are doing fine. MMM is building an ERE2 community, in my mind made possible by his vast popularity, high recruitment rate and unifying vision.

In order to recruit more ERE people we should look outside of FIRE. Bc FIRE is recruiting better than we do already AND people who get FIRE don’t need our help*.

*until they get to the WL5/6 moat… which we’ve already discussed a lot.

I think the fact that semi-ERE looks a lot like people’s youth is a selling point? Isn’t the midlife crisis an attempt to recapture youth? The freedom of youth is something people envy. If people are more familiar with something it will be easier to convince them to try it?

[Western Red Cedar]

I'm not talking about FIRE either. Financial independence isn't the same as FIRE. I'm talking about financial security, stability, and independence as the primary carrot in ERE. Freedom is certainly a major carrot as well, but that freedom stems from building a focus on personal economics and a system focused on financial freedom. When I read something like this, it sounds like finances are entwined with the problem statement and the vision:

But there are a lot of people who didn't chose that life, who are trying to do interesting things, but suffer from the narrative that they are losers* and live in poverty. What these people need is funding. Like ERE is the equivalent of tenure or a small arts endowment or a small inheritance or getting your startup funded or a small business loan approved. Most people dream of economic wealth and what they would do with it and ERE just shows you that you already have it. Some people are just addicted to the dream and will never be happy, but other people could benefit from the knowledge of how to do a lot with a little and these are often the people who are painfully close already doing that.

Like instead of being like "be responsible and smart and figure out some stuff that is simple but not easy" can we be like "what would YOU do if 80% of your income was immediately freed up?" "what would YOU do if 80% of your time was immediately freed up." "what would YOU do with enough savings to not worry?" "What would YOU do if you could build your own house in four years." "what would YOU do with a $10,000 small business loan six months from now?" and like a bunch of other things that make up what ERE actually is that's not just FIRE.

The "freedom-to" runway is built on a foundation of financial stability.

@Jacob mentioned a solution to attracting "allies" in the decentralizing FI discussion that talks about replacing the financial carrot:

Rewrite the ERE book, but remove chapter 7 and replace it with a chapter that appeals to the desired target demographics, e.g. "awesome adventures", "community development", "prepping", ... whatever carrot you want instead, and change the title to fit accordingly.

I'm not going to do it. Been there, done that. Tension resolved, so it's not motivating to me. However I encourage others with non-fiction book writing aspirations to do so and I'd support such an effort. Having different variations by different people on the same theme with different voices is more convincing that a single monologue much like a set of journals is more convincing that a single blog.

The obvious failure mode for such an effort is that whatever the X attraction is most people will default to the standard/simple approach to X. However, there's a chance that a handful will grok what such a book is actually trying to teach them.

From this discussion:

The key inflection point to all this is really WL6. Since the majority of humans struggle and abstractions and theory, the most effective approach is to "show, not tell". What you show needs to be relatable to those who are looking.

I'm not planning on rewriting ERE, but I'm happy to "show, not tell" as I mentioned previously. When I talk to people I can't deny, however, that my approach to personal economics and my financial foundation is a major component in building an interesting and resilient lifestyle.

One of the things I love about ERE is that it uses a financial foundation to deemphasize the need for finances in the first place. I'm not sure how well it would work if you replace that carrot or how it would stand out from other lifestyle philosophies. But....I might just lack imagination.

[jacob]

One of the things I love about ERE is that it uses a financial foundation to deemphasize the need for finances in the first place. I'm not sure how well it would work if you replace that carrot or how it would stand out from other lifestyle philosophies. But....I might just lack imagination.

An example of the social equivalent would be to demphasize the need for "traditional dependency"-structures like marriage, family, or community on a foundation of being super-charming and generally known by everybody. This would likely elicit the same "frequent objections", the "how can you turn away from family" analog to "how can you reject the pursuit of money-based status markers"?

[Western Red Cedar]

I think the fact that semi-ERE looks a lot like people’s youth is a selling point? Isn’t the midlife crisis an attempt to recapture youth? The freedom of youth is something people envy. If people are more familiar with something it will be easier to convince them to try it?

A youthful lifestyle as a carrot probably depends on the audience, but it could be a good potential selling point. Some people would probably love to go back, but others are happy to move on. I think it probably works better as an incentive for those who don't have families or kids. Many are not willing to trade their (perceived) security for freedom.

As I was writing this, @Jacob's post popped up which was timely

[Jin+Guice]

@WRC: Thanks for posting that link from the decentralizing FI thread. That’s very helpful for what I’m talking about!


It seems like there is some slight disagreement about what ERE is. For me it’s post-consumer praxis = anti-consumerism. Anti-consumerism causes financial freedom. For @WRC it’s maybe financial independence (here what you are saying about how this does not equal FIRE, thank you for emphasizing), which causes anti-consumerism. For someone else it’s frugality which causes anti-consumerism and financial independence. All of these things can lead to emergent resilience ecology.

Rather than argue about which one of these things causes the other, I agree that they are all important. Different carrots for different people that all lead to a similar place.

I’m not looking for THE thing that gets more people on board. I’m looking for a multitude of things. Like I think this should appeal to academics and entrepreneurs, but I’m probably not the guy for that bc I don’t do that stuff. I do urban gardening and art. I do recapturing your youth. I don’t do families, but ERE gets you more time with your family so…

Imo ERE is letting go of a collective delusion that no longer works. I don’t know many people who wouldn’t benefit from becoming at least twice as economically efficient.

The ERE book is literally about retiring in 5 years on the salary of a tollbooth operator while appearing to live a more or less “normal” life. In other words, roughly the median U.S. salary is spent on roughly 90% waste. Getting back all 90% by being barely weird and kind of crafty might only appeal to a small subset of people, but what about getting back 20%?

The part I get stuck on is undoing the collective delusion that we are economically impoverished and our lives would be solved if we could only have 20% more.

[AxelHeyst]

@wrc honestly I think we're all in approximate agreement, we're just discussing different emphases and carrots that are appropriate to different potential audiences.

Yes: you can't have ERE without some financial stability, be it FI or FU stash or income robustness or whatever. But there are people out there who if you lead with financial responsibility as your primary carrot/hook, their eyes will gloss over or they'll think you're a sellout or whatever. They'll tune you out.

For these people, a different carrot vector is required.

Roughly speaking it's just inverting Jacob's initial premise, which was that ecological responsibility wasn't a carrot-vector likely to attract many people. So he chose the financial responsibility/stability carrot vector. He was 100% correct and was massively successful when you look at not just this board but his influence on MMM/et al.

It is no longer 2010 and more and more people are motivated by ecological responsibility, adaptation, prepping, social/climate justice, or even just wanting to live good lives despite secular decline or whatever they think is going on in the world. And these people are diverse, interesting, ambitious etc, or at least some of them are. We're interested in appealing to them. They won't pursue a financial stability carrot, but perhaps they'll go along with/see the wisdom of financial stability if we can figure out how to speak to them in a way that resonates.

To be very precise: choosing a non-financial carrot is not the same thing as dismissing the important of financial stability. It's just a different hook.

I'm not talking about FIRE either. Financial independence isn't the same as FIRE. I'm talking about financial security, stability, and independence as the primary carrot in ERE. Freedom is certainly a major carrot as well, but that freedom stems from building a focus on personal economics and a system focused on financial freedom. When I read something like this, it sounds like finances are entwined with the problem statement and the vision:
...
The "freedom-to" runway is built on a foundation of financial stability.

Yes, financial security, stability, and independence *are* the current primary carrots of ERE. Do you think that those are the only appropriate carrots for post-consumerism?

[7Wannabe5]

In a way, I think some of the most hard-to-convince types in my social circle would be those who did spend their 20s and even 30s and 40s engaged in artsy, eco-activist, academic, Bohemian, hippie-Mom, etc. lifestyles, and finally got sick of constantly being on the edge financially, so "Big Chill" ed into a more conventional mode at mid-life. They are much more thrilled by stuff like Dental Coverage! and Car That Isn't a Complete Piece of Shit! than those who were first employed by corporation at decent salary at age 22.

[chenda]

They are much more thrilled by stuff like Dental Coverage! and Car That Isn't a Complete Piece of Shit!

Sell outs

[Jin+Guice]

@7: For my friends it’s more like they didn’t go through an ego stage where they looked successful to the rest of society and/ or their family. They do also appreciate not struggling for money after all those years broke. Artsy people are typically not great savers already…

Artsy/ hippie is still a stereotype that propels the dominant cultural narrative. We need these people so the squares can feel bad about themselves, so the hippies can sell out at 40 to prove that selling out is inevitable and so occasionally fortune can favor one who become a megastar with vast amounts of wealth so the other artist/ hippie/ bohemians have a nice consumerist goal to aspire to.

In the last five years I’ve had a number of artist friends bootcamp to programmer. I don’t think they feel like programming for a bunch of money is worse or harder than barristaing. The only dude who externally changed his life kind of resembles a character of a midlife crisis. He does appear to be having a great time though. I look forward to his convertible. Most of them do similar amounts of art.

But with ERE you can do… anything. It gives an alternative ego structure, which isn’t the same hit as main stream success but it’s a better than doing pretty well at 25 as an artist and then doing no better at 40 (career wise). It’s also like be a barista and retire in 6 years. Or be a barista and start saving at 35 and don’t try that hard and retire at 55. Or take an art sabbatical for 5-7 years and retire. Or literally do what I did and fine the highest paying part-time gig you can.

I don’t know how to convince them it’s possible and fun.

[jacob]

A very generalized model can be derived from spiral dynamics.

Recall, that
1) SD oscillates between individual and collective.
2) Each tier (color) has a structure with winners or losers.

Carrots are either found by
1) Becoming a winner in the current tier (this is the default water that the fish swim in)
2) Avoiding becoming a loser in the current tier (this requires seeing the water)
3) Transitioning albeit usually bypassing to the next tier or regressing to the previous.

So Orange (modernism, standard US values), the carrot is either
1) Work hard and achieve the American Dream.
2) Don't go into debt, avoid the trap of consumerism, pursue life, liberty, and happiness on individualist terms.
3) Protest capitalism and join community! // Get religion and focus on family.

For Blue (traditionalism, conservatives in the US), the carrot is
1) Support your family, do your duty, work hard, be a pillar of society.
2) ???
3) Get an education, move to the city and make money (-> Orange) // Be a rebel, "nobody tells me what to do, I do what I want", ignore the rules (->Red)

For Green (postmodernism, progressives in the US), the carrot is
1) Supporting an all-inclusive (in many senses) supportive community and doing things together
2) Being charming and popular enough join any community (this requires understanding backroom politics)
3) "They need me more than I need them" // "I'm going to be rich and just buy my friends"

It's certainly possible to nitpick the details, but I think this generalization helps to decide where to look and what to look for.

[7Wannabe5]

@jacob:

I can't construct the entire (2) for Blue, but "Don't be Dirty" would sub for "Don't go into Debt" at Orange. This could also be extended to Green if something like "Don't be Disagreeable" is subbed for "Be charming."

ETA : And at Level Yellow, "Don't be Dull."

[jacob]

This could also be extended to Green if something like "Don't be Disagreeable" is subbed for "Be charming."

Thinking about it a bit more, those who avoid the Green lock-in seem to have avoided feeling shamed or being guilt-tripped. Shame is the social equivalent of debt. "Don't get known as the guy who can fix the printer". "Stop trying so hard." Basically, Peter's interview Office Space (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_1lIFRdnhA ). "It's not that I'm lazy. I just don't care." Methinks that this is the dirty secret of the Green power dynamics. Those who rise to the top of Green are the Queen Bees of group politics but they depend on there being enough people willing to actually do the work without any external motivation like money or recognition. They (collective colors) depend on the fact that individuals are afraid to leave their group. Yellow will strike out as an individual, but a "charming Green person" would join other groups and thus not being guilted into carrying the water for another group. In short, I think the the (2) solution to Green is some version of grass-eating lazy Roberts.

What Green essentially wants within Green is to "join and be in a community" without having to earn it by individual effort. (Hence the idea of "inclusiveness" as a supreme value. Anyone can join as long as they conform to the group's values.) Such an individual would manifest by pushing for people to start as many groups, zoom meetings, circles, gatherings, etc. as possible and wanting to join them all. The key being to meet and be with other people.

A good method to figure out what the 2-carrot is is to play the "what if everybody did X, wouldn't our world collapse?"-objection. For example, Orange worries that the economy would collapse if everybody stopped consuming. Green worries that the welfare state would collapse if everybody stopped paying taxes or abandoned social callings (teachers, nurses, ...). This is basically testing the immune system of a given culture.

PS: Despite growing up in a rather Green culture, it is difficult for me to channel the collective mindset of being part of something for the sake of being part of something. I went with carrot=(3).

[jacob]

Also, this may be me projecting or anti-projecting my shadow, but I think "Fe" is very important to Green.

The main criteria for joining a Green group is the ability to fog a mirror, specially, having and sharing human feelings. It's the lowest common denominator that Green can imagine. It is important that everybody is supported in their emotional space and the way a group does this is to "talk about one's feelings with others". (Cf. a way for an individual could do this is cultivating mindfulness ... something that would be no fun to a group). Green (and Blue) are very suspicious of people who introvert and they even have a word for it which is not meant as a compliment: "loner".