Meeting, Engaging and Seducing non-ERE Allies: Carrot Vectors

[Jin+Guice]

My main takeaway from this has been that I need to start talking more positively about ERE aspects of my life and also find unique ways to find connection with people about ERE topics. I'm also not that interested in figuring out how to reach a wider audience, which I think is Jacob's main focus. It's not that I don't think this is important, it just seems too hard and I don't know how I would do it.


The hardest part with artists is that they usually feel like failures and see consumerism as a way to show their success and worth in a world ruled by consumerist values. So they go from being pretty ERE when they are 25 to being jaded consumers as they age*. Lifestyle inflation envy.

If they are successful, they want to flaunt that success in the face of their detractors. The narrative of art is generally that one suffers through poverty due to under-appreciation of the arts or that one suffers for poverty for a through years to gain the grit necessary to make quality art. Because of this, artists can be some of the hardest people to convince that "poverty" is actually a desirable and possibly comfortable state.

*I'm 36, and am dealing mostly with people 33-46, which is I think generally a demographic group that is post youthful idealism but pre mid-life crisis "what does it all mean"ism. Think 25 yr old barista who is a rising local art star vs 39 yr old barista who is established in the local arts community but probably not going to get any "bigger" vs 60 yr old arts old-timer and then think of their respective peer groups and how they would view them.

[jacob]

*I'm 36, and am dealing mostly with people 33-46, which is I think generally a demographic group that is post youthful idealism but pre mid-life crisis "what does it all mean"ism. Think 25 yr old barista who is a rising local art star vs 39 yr old barista who is established in the local arts community but probably not going to get any "bigger" vs 60 yr old arts old-timer and then think of their respective peer groups and how they would view them.

You'll find similar sentiments among corporate careerists. From the 25yr "it's not work if it's your passion" to the 60yr "I'm just here for the bennies".

[shaz]

J+G, interesting info and insights about the artists you know. I was mentally drawing parallels with elite athletes in non-lucrative sports (ex. Weightlifting) - "fewer distractions" is a huge draw for that group. I think maybe the difference is the athletes do their flaunting in the form of medals so they can be very receptive to anti-consumerist ideas once they grasp that anti-consumerism can help them pursue medals.

Putting your own ERE-ism out there in a positive way might turn out to be quite effective because you strike me as someone who presents as successful in a way slightly-younger artists might want to emulate.

[Ego]

This also means that while glossed up planks are inspiring to those why never held a paint brush, it takes a dovetail to inspire the glosser. Everyone in this "chain of being" thus serve a function. .

This is a sales problem . The unconvinced don't want to be convinced. You want to convince them. That mismatch means that to be successful sometimes you will have to lift more than one corner.

It is hard to move people from appreciating Ikea crap to dovetails in one giant leap. Glossed planks is an intermediate step where the two can meet while appreciating different aspects of the same item. The table could be the thing that opens their mind and allows them to appreciating dovetails.

Someone more well versed in sales techniques might be able to shed light on how this works?

[ertyu]

Sales techniques say, start with what they want, and convince them what you want to sell them will get them what they want.
You might have to do a little bit of motivational interviewing first to understand and activate what it is they want.

[7Wannabe5]

So they go from being pretty ERE when they are 25 to being jaded consumers as they age*. Lifestyle inflation envy...

...Think 25 yr old barista who is a rising local art star vs 39 yr old barista who is established in the local arts community but probably not going to get any "bigger" vs 60 yr old arts old-timer and then think of their respective peer groups and how they would view them.

I think maybe the difference is the athletes do their flaunting in the form of medals so they can be very receptive to anti-consumerist ideas once they grasp that anti-consumerism can help them pursue medals.

Yeah, I agree that Envy is definitely where The Artist (Type 4 Enneagram roughly INFX) goes when in low functioning mode; just like The Scientist (Type 5, roughly INTX) goes to Greed and The Enthusiast (Type 7 moi, roughly EXTP) goes to Gluttony. However, I guess I've always assumed that The Artists in my social circle were also at least as motivated by Fame/Medals as elite-athletes-in-non-lucrative sports, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it depends on whether they are more towards the cusp with The Scientist which is known as The Bohemian or towards the cusp with The Achiever which is known as The Critic? For instance, I know that my second (infp) sister was a bit miffed that she wasn't credited for being the original keyboardist for a semi-famous West Coast Black Metal band on Wikipedia.

I feel like it has often been my role in life to be the mediator between a character who is like The Alcoholic, Depressive, Introverted Author of The Play and a character who is like The Tough Extroverted Azzhole Businessman with a Cigar who is providing the money to produce the show, and I can only be entirely myself in this juncture of roles, thus my tendency towards polyamory perhaps being reflective of a bisexuality related to personality types rather than gender. Anyways, I tend towards being protective of The Artist type, so my take might be somewhat biased/less than functional.

[ertyu]

Well, well, well...

Hey [ertyu], what are good foods to buy now that’ll last me through almost a month of not being paid maybe?

I'm very very glad you asked
Let us discuss rice and beans/lentils

tl;dr: be known for your authentic self. when people need what you've got, they'll come.

[7Wannabe5]

From Skillathon 2024 thread:

Why are y'all just telling me this now and why did y'all totally neglect these books in the carrot vector thread? I thought we were friends.

Because almost all the Bohemian/Artist types I know IRL are already quite good at frugal hedonism and/or savvy chic. IOW, most of them already know how to achieve fairly high quality of life (except for stuff like dental insurance) on low income due to their preponderance of other forms of capital. I think the question is how to add some more Aesthetic/Social capital to the Pared Down Middle Class ERE Lifestyle and/or add some middle class lifestyle stuff like Dental Insurance to the Bohemian/Artist lifestyle while still maintaining/tending down towards 1 eco-Jacob per capita.

Some of the differences, especially at MMM level, might actually have more to do with accounting/business skills than personal resource burn. For instance, if you are a semi-ERE musician with gigs as one of your primary small flows of income then that cool, new-to-you-used guitar you just purchased on EBay is likely a business expense; no different (better!) than the new corporate jet purchased for the use of CEO of a company in which FI version ERE person owns stock. The moral expense is charged off to your customers/fans (the consumers) rather than you as producer.

[jennypenny]

@J&G--You might want to try 'selling' your lifestyle as a way to avoid becoming jaded or too tired to adhere to any personal ethos. This can happen to anyone, but I can see it more with artist types or anyone who lives at the margins. Tell them you live the way you do so the frugality comes easily ... so that it won't wear you out to the point where you start making choices your rested/idealogical self wouldn't make. Basically, you live by ERE principles so that you aren't tempted to 'sell out' someday. ERE makes it easier to stay hungry, if that makes sense.

It's not much different than corporate drones who have the life drummed out of them before they get to retire, and then don't have the zest to live an interesting retirement. If they'd pursued ERE or (better) semi-ERE as a way to 'keep the dream alive', they wouldn't be zombies in retirement. To me, it's one of the more compelling aspects of semi-ERE -- it's a way to stay hungry and well-fed at the same time.


ETA: Thinking about it, you should write the artist version of Growing Free (which is geared more towards green beans and activist types). It's the same premise ... live this way so you can 'live your truth' ... that's part of every ERE sales pitch, just tweaked to reflect the color of the target.

[Western Red Cedar]

The hardest part with artists is that they usually feel like failures and see consumerism as a way to show their success and worth in a world ruled by consumerist values. So they go from being pretty ERE when they are 25 to being jaded consumers as they age*. Lifestyle inflation envy.

If they are successful, they want to flaunt that success in the face of their detractors. The narrative of art is generally that one suffers through poverty due to under-appreciation of the arts or that one suffers for poverty for a through years to gain the grit necessary to make quality art. Because of this, artists can be some of the hardest people to convince that "poverty" is actually a desirable and possibly comfortable state.

I'm curious if you noticed a difference between NY and NOLA? Do you think there are regional differences in how the city or environment impacts artists?

[Jin+Guice]

@jp: If only that would work! Around 35 seems to be the inflection point for mosts artists I know, where pretty much all of them would love to sell out... This may be specific to my time and place in arts and history, where "selling out" looks a lot like getting your original song released on the internet in a Pepsi commercial which pays you and generates enough subsequent interest to get enough Spotify plays to pay out. This doesn't seem to be a problem for @7w5's group, so perhaps it's only the people I'm attracting?

Interestingly my friends in the visual arts are much less interested in "making it," but they are also vastly more monetarily and artistically successful. The writers crave success, but success in writing in the form of a job as a journalist and publication of a book on a small press is generally achievable.



@WRC: There are for sure differences culturally, but thinking about it, I don't really think so with respect to ERE and consumerism. NYC sucks harder if you are really broke forever but it is hard to get recognition beyond a certain level in New Orleans.

IMO, New Orleans is great if you want local success and notoriety, which as I've grown into ERE while being a musician is the only thing I'm interested in. I don't care if I've played my biggest gig, as long as I get to keep playing gigs. This sentiment is exceptionally rare though.

[7Wannabe5]

This doesn't seem to be a problem for @7w5's group, so perhaps it's only the people I'm attracting?

Couple notes. First off, my "group" is likely on average a generation older than your group. For instance, I seriously dated a man (IXFJ)who played studio bass on a Peaches and Herb album Most of them would be extremely happy to be paid for providing music for Pepsi commercial*, but Pepsi commericals are not usually set to 14 minute long Black Metal and/or avant garde jazz pieces and/or raw proto-punk (the somewhat iconic album for which my second sister (INFP) composed some of the keyboard is listed under 20 best albums to listen to when you are extremely depressed.) Also, what I meant by "selling out" was more akin to "giving up, putting your guitar in the attic, and taking a full time job as an actuary, so that you can afford dental insurance." Also, I realize I've likely been confusing the issue by not clearly indicating when I am considering The Artist personality type vs humans who practice in the arts as their profession and/or avocation.

*My youngest sister ( ENTP)actually did get paid for creating a commercial for a small brewery after her student work won best short documentary at a couple major film festivals in the 90s. She is now a corporate lawyer and married to a straight male academic INTJ, but she still kind of more resembles somebody who did make out with at least one member of Bikini Kill.

[Western Red Cedar]

Interestingly my friends in the visual arts are much less interested in "making it," but they are also vastly more monetarily and artistically successful. The writers crave success, but success in writing in the form of a job as a journalist and publication of a book on a small press is generally achievable.



@WRC: There are for sure differences culturally, but thinking about it, I don't really think so with respect to ERE and consumerism. NYC sucks harder if you are really broke forever but it is hard to get recognition beyond a certain level in New Orleans.

IMO, New Orleans is great if you want local success and notoriety, which as I've grown into ERE while being a musician is the only thing I'm interested in. I don't care if I've played my biggest gig, as long as I get to keep playing gigs. This sentiment is exceptionally rare though.

One of the reasons I asked is I realized I've spent much of my adult life in small or mid-sized cities. I'd guess that the artists who gravitate towards places like NYC, and possibly New Orleans or Nashville, probably have different dispositions and expectations for professional success in the arts.

Most of the talented artists I know (including my wife) gave up on the idea of being able to support themselves with their art at some point in their twenties. However, many of them continue to apply an artists eye towards projects and life - something that loosely parallels ERE and anti-consumerist themes. Homeownership often seemed to be a pivotal turning point in many of their lives, and necessitated application of frugal skills in a different capacity.

Or, to ask a more general question related to this thread: Is the artist who stays in place more amenable to ERE than one who leaves for a larger market to pursue professional success through their art?

[Jin+Guice]

Interesting, because that is essentially the exact opposite of my experience, where the people who made attempts at arts careers were the ones who were successful and those who pursued more practical paths eventually stop or appear to be on a collision course with mid-life crisises.

I'm not sure if propensity for ERE and pursuing an arts career seriously are correlated. On the one hand success in the arts, like success in general will prevent one from pursuing ERE as it changes the criteria for success. On the other hand there is the eventual realization of the hollowness of all that ego gratification and the realization that perhaps maybe one did what they set out to do. On the other hand you have those were weren't successful and gave up, who maybe welcome a changing of the rules so that they can find success in a smaller, less painful way. But then they are blocked by not having the ego gratification and mainstream recognition. Sometimes it's possible to change the rules without ego gratification and sometimes it's not.

From my own experience, seeing a bunch of people who were successful artists and considered being a successful artist to be somewhat normal was helpful and ran counter to the experience and expectations I grew up with. These people didn't have 9 to 5s, and I was in a community of people with whom it was normal to be free at 10a on a Tuesday morning.

I also noticed that even the most successful people were never fulfilled. Each dream was forgotten as soon as it was achieved with little celebration. The attitude was very much one of continued pursuit of higher heights, with only those with no higher mountain in site seeking to maintain their position. There were a few who seemed content with their success and a few who were so eccentric they seemed not to care, but these attitudes were rare and possibly contrived. Having access to the top and seeing that no one was happy is ultimately why I left. If I had thought of ERE, I probably would've pursued FIRE in that career instead, although I would've missed out on a lot as it was very time consuming and I had basically no real life skills and was an extreme specialist at a thing that has no practical purpose (which still describes my job now).

I'm not really sure what the answer to the question is. If the key to finding ERE is dissatisfaction with how things currently are I think both paths contain pitfalls and possibilities.

To invert the question, the propensity for ERE certainly made becoming a successful artist easier. Part of the artist narrative is enduring a period of poverty, that period for me was something I quite enjoyed as already being frugal, I didn't find it to be difficult, in fact I found it to be fun.

[Western Red Cedar]

@J&G - I'm probably speaking too abstractly about this. I guess my working hypothesis is that people who identify as artists or have an aptitude for art tend to be non-conformists and embrace a DIY ethos. Those are two characteristics that mesh well with ERE values. Those type of people also put in a lot of hours developing skills and techniques that they may transfer to other areas of life later. Those skills, and perspectives that may have resulted from living a bohemian lifestyle in younger years, could lay a better foundation for embracing ERE later down the road. I see it in DW and how she approaches life - making and altering her own clothes, cutting and styling her hair, making gifts, her approach to cooking and preserving food, etc...I think this is partially because she is an object visualizer, but it is also just because she needs to be creative to feel good.

Almost everyone I know that tried to "make it" as an artist gave up by their mid to late twenties. But, they are still creative and tend to view the world differently.

But...I realize that terms like "successful" or "make it" or even "artist" are relative and definitions probably vary significantly from person to person. When I said "professional success" upthread I was actually thinking financial successful. I think most of my friends or acquaintances called it quits because even when they found some professional success in the form of selling paintings or selling out music venues in Seattle, it wasn't enough to provide a basic standard of living. The hustle of paying the bills and pursuing an artistic career can wear one down after a while.

[Jin+Guice]

I met several financially successful artists when I lived in NYC. If you want to be financially successful in music it is almost a requirement that you live in New York, Nashville, L.A. or were a rapper in Atlanta from ~1995-2012 (or are on Ca$h Money... Nola represent bb... all of their most successful artists moved though)... or were in a grunge band in the PNW in the early to mid 1990s...

Arts also require a lot of support staff which are in some ways considered artists in their own rights. No one would argue that a mega-famous singer is a successful artist, but what about her band (who doesn't write the music), her producer, her mix engineer, her touring sound engineer, the guy who vacuums the carpets on her tour (this is a real job)? The further down the list you go, the easier it is to be on the list.

So if you are in a band, even in a city like Seattle, that sells out local venues, you still probably tour in 1 van and are lucky if you can afford to stay in 1 hotel room on tour. It's effectively a different thing to try to become financially successful as a musician in Seattle than it is in New York, Nashville or L.A.

And I agree that artists who are dedicated to the punk/ indie route are likely to be better suited for ERE. I think they are more likely to fall into the "we hate money and so therefore don't save or budget" camp than artists who moved to NYC to achieve financial success (there are still plenty of indie artists in NYC/ Nashville/ L.A. though bc those are still the best places to make all levels of connections).

Actually, New Orleans may be especially rough because the music scene here is self contained and quite large but not very connected to the outside music industry. So it's easy to be a rising star in your 20s but then hit the ceiling of New Orleans, especially if you are the music you play is not in the style of New Orleans.

[7Wannabe5]

I've been doing some contemplation/"research" and I think it may be the case that one of reasons we (or just me )are "stuck" trying to figure this out is that the MBTI tendency that best correlates with IQ is not necessarily the tendency that best correlates with frugality, although there is some correlation. Basically, XNXX best correlates with IQ and IXXJ best correlates with frugality.

Extroverted and Prospecting types are often much more likely to spend their money impulsively, and are less likely to put money into savings than Introverted and Judging types. When we asked our respondents about frugality, Introverted and Judging personalities were significantly more likely to agree than their fellow Extroverted and Prospecting types.

https://www.16personalities.com/article ... %20habits.


One of the things I was contemplating was how my ENFP ex-mother-in-law and INTJ ex-father-in-law (very frugal chemist who retired early, grew a large vegetable garden, and biked the Lewis and Clark trail solo. IOW, very ERE forum member-like, although of his silent generation ) had an absolutely miserable marriage*, in good part due to conflicts over money, but he was later much happier married to an ISXJ woman who was easily 30 or 40 points lower in IQ than my ex-mother-in-law and also less physically attractive. They agreed on most things household-wise except he made her get rid of all the little ceramic objects she painted (because clutter) and he made her remove every little bit of fat from the top when she made soup. My ex-MIL who was still-in-love/ego-damaged by being unceremoniously dumped by my ex-FIL after 30 years of marriage for reasons too rational for her to fathom, could not comprehend how he could be happily married to a woman he "couldn't even talk to" because their IQs were so disparate, but I kind of grokked it.

This is what another article on personality type and frugality/money habits says about the INTP/ENTP types (emphasis mine):
https://personalitygrowth.com/heres-how ... lity-type/

INTP
INTPs are complex people, which means they can be both frugal and little reckless with their finances. They will definitely keep track of their money and how they are spending it, but have moments of wanting to be a little spontaneous. INTPs will risk their finances for a big idea sometimes, or simply because they get caught up in the moment. INTPs are intelligent people though, and will always find a way to make back whatever money they recklessly spend. They are capable of being frugal and can save plenty of money in order to achieve whatever goals they have in mind.

ENTP
ENTPs are capable of being frugal, but oftentimes they don’t want to be. ENTPs do not like being held back by responsibilities or the idea of money. They want to feel free to make their own choices, and enjoy being a little reckless from time to time. ENTPs might want to spend their money on some new idea, or a big project that they are passionate about. They might take these risks with their finances but always find a way to bounce back and make things work.

Here's what it says about ISFJ type:

ISFJ
ISFJs can be very frugal people, and are good at keeping track of their finances. They do not want to be reckless, and believe in being responsible with their money. ISFJs are often good at keeping organized records of everything, which makes them good at keeping track of things in their lives. This helps the ISFJ become more aware of their financial situation, which helps them to save more effectively. ISFJs do enjoy spending their money on nice things, but they want to be sure they are doing this responsibly and not recklessly.

Here's what it says about INFP type (which I associate with The Artist):

INFP
INFPs rarely care much about material things, but on occasion they find items they really enjoy. INFPs aren’t always responsible when it comes to their finances, simply because they don’t want to feel controlled by it. They realize that there are certain bills that need to be paid, but at the same time they aren’t obsessing over it. INFPs are not likely to spend all of their money on something foolish though, since they rarely find themselves swept up in something materialistic.

Anyways, my conclusion is that the essential conflict for ERE2 imagined as anything from a social gathering to a community is the extent to which its membership conforms to the N correlation and therefore includes some who are more "reckless" vs conforming to the IJ correlation and thereby including some who are more inclined towards "rigid."

The chart below highlights why some types are also much more strongly drawn towards self-employment or semi-ERE variations. For instance as an eNTP, I can't help but view FI ERE as just an uber-conservative, uber-capitalized form of self-employment:




*Watching high-IQ INTJ types try to interact with high-IQ ENFP types (such as like to belong to circling groups) is either painful or humorous to me, because I like both of these types, but it's like oil and vinegar. Another example would be when I was caring for my XNTJ multi-millionaire friend when he was dying and the hospice counselor visited and tried to get him to open up about his feelings related to his nearing death, and she was absolutely defeated and sad about being defeated.

[blink2ce]

Very cool @7wb5!

Here is another group of subcultures that might be interested in ERE if it is explained to them in a way that supports their values.
For example:
- Preppers
- Survivalists
- Anti-government, patriotic, pro-liberty guys
- Bushcrafters

It is difficult to describe all of these types of people as one, but the theme is that these people perceive a threat to their autonomy and they want to become more robust/resilient against the risks that they see. Usually it's the government, social unrest, and weather catastrophes (or all three) that these types of people are worried about.

These people spend quite a bit of time and money preparing themselves by acquiring "gear" and learning various survival skills. I think that it would fit perfectly into their worldview to also become debt-free and to be in a strong financial position. Really everything about ERE would benefit these people, even if they are not into ERE for the ecological reasons.

[7Wannabe5]

@blink2ce:

Yup, that would likely be towards the ESTJ/ISTJ crowd. I think the types remaining the hardest sells, because most lacking in any form of internal motivation/tendency might be ESFP, ISFP, ESFJ, ESTP. Dunno.

[jacob]

Here is another group of subcultures that might be interested in ERE if it is explained to them in a way that supports their values.

It's plausible that "adjacent interest" can be gauged by where/who I've been invited to podcasts/interviews and what the invite rate has been.

Interested adjacents (ranked in order of most popular to least):

• FIRE
• Philosophy/personal development/social criticism
• Permaculture
• Preppers

Non-interested adjacents (ranked in order of most popular to least / not at all)

• Mainstream (very much in my country of origin, not as much in the US)
• Minimalists
• Climate change

I have some explanations. FIRE is kinda obvious. The philosophy is due to thinking deeper than normal. Permaculture because of the systems thinking. Preppers because of the individualistic orientation. Mainstream is mostly because I was the first in the blog-era but in the US they usually feature a native; I'm too unrelatable. Denmark has reached about the same level so if the journo can find someone else, they go with that. Despite a good focus on minimalism, I never made much inroad there perhaps due to the lack of aesthetics, travel, and iThings. I'm outright ignored by the CC people. I suspect that's because they prefer a community approach, so pretty much the opposite effect of the preppers.