Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

Where are you and where are you going?
Henry
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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

Post by Henry »

Scott 2 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2024 8:25 pm

I suspect you might be similar, which is part of why I discourage the war metaphor. There's a good chance what feels soft to you, already comes across as overly firm to others. This can take a lot of practice to calibrate, if it's not intuitive.
How about poker metaphors? Scumbag crew called. Oku raised. How about if you can't figure out who the sucker at the table is, it's Oku.

Oku's response seems to have surprised the scumbag crew. But that's their fault. What political rule is normative that Oku is required to perfectly calibrate Oku's response in a hyper-symmetric manner? What rule of corporate rule of law mandates that Oku spend the remaining years of his career in some sort of perpetual quasi-Victorian white glove let's pretend we are all gentelmen slapping contest? Politics is not shadow boxing. It's boxing. People don't like to go to war because it's unpredictable. It opens up the possibility of asymmetric responses. You poke someone in the chest you only have yourself to blame if they punch you in the face. The lesson is don't go poking people in the chest. You trespass into Oku's cubicle don't blame Oku if he puts a cap in your corporate ass. Scumbag crew threw the first punch because they are bullies and thought Oku was an easy mark. Oku proved he was not. Scumbag crew starts scrambling. Scumbag crew runs to bossman for cover. Bossman has to decide if he is merely head of the scumbag crew or is really the boss of all. If bossman has bossman he has to worry about how he handles the situation. If Oku is headed out the door at least Oku broke some shit in the process. Better than sitting there having the whole crew of office scumbags tap dancing on Oku's head.

Scott 2
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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

Post by Scott 2 »

You're right. Oku - put on your best American accent and beat those cowards relentlessly.

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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

Post by okumurahata »

Calmness prevails after the storm. Sitting at the table with a poor hand, chewing gum, and being as enigmatic as possible. Today, coworker A loudly mentioned during breakfast how she had emailed coworker Z with the manager in CC yesterday. Excusatio non petita, accusatio manifesta. I remained chewing gum, pondering the poor hand I’ve been dealt while maintaining a smile. I don’t let others know what I’m thinking; I’ll keep them guessing. There’s no discussion about the unpleasant task I’ve been assigned. Nothing. I’m waiting for others to make a move.

What makes @oku dangerous is that he has nothing to lose. No career, no prospects of promotion, no kids, no mortgage, no responsibilities, just a crappy salary. Well, perhaps being busted is the best thing that can happen to @oku.

ffj
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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

Post by ffj »

Take it from the master of bottling shit inside until you explode, man you have got to learn how to play the game better. Rule number one is that it is a game and all of the behaviors you've seen are to be expected, not surprised by. When you leave this job in June you will enter another workforce with the same dynamics played in subtle but similar ways. It never ends wherever and whenever groups of people congregate. You have no choice but to adapt and like all things, how one reacts to conflict determines outcomes.

Rule number two is not to drop a nuclear bomb on an easily diffused situation. Example: Hey Karen, is this extra work coming from you or the boss? You? I'm not doing it. Goodbye. See how that works? You establish boundaries without drawing the attention of the person that can fire you. And if they are in on the scheme, then the boss will have to show their hand to get you to comply.

Rule number three: the ability to walk away is a powerful tool but it must be respected. If you develop a reputation of bouncing every time you have a conflict then you will lose any hiring leverage eventually. Remember Karen? She is going to mouth off to anybody that will listen in your industry about how difficult you are to work with because she is a bitch. Remember rule number one: people like her are to be expected, not surprised by.

I give you this advice after earning it the hard way, haha. Ever threaten to whip somebody's ass? Now that is setting a boundary but it's also ridiculous any situation should get to that point. It happened because I didn't have people skills. So learn how to deal with people better. It will pay huge dividends. It's a dance, it's a game, and a sense of humor about it will help you immensely here.

Henry
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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

Post by Henry »

You reach a point in life where you very rarely encounter new models of assholes. Life provides you with an asshole reference guide ie this 2024 Asshole Bob is just like that 2012 Asshole Bill who was just like that 1998 Asshole Brad. I can walk into a local church and scan the room and have at least one antecedent Christian asshole for every person sitting in the pews before the first time the name Jesus is uttered. The key is to telegraph to the new asshole at jump street that you have met an antecedent asshole so they know not to pull their asshole shit because you have seen it numerous times before. Oku now has his first roster of assholes in his asshole reference guide and if/when he walks into his next office teeming with assholes this asshole situation will not reoccur because Oku is a renowned historian of assholes.

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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

Post by macg »

I agree with Henry's assessment... I understand where ffj & others are coming from, but frankly, "playing the game" to your detriment is ultimately a bad move.

Some background: US-based, been in IT areas for a few big companies (Insurance, Technology, Real Estate) for a couple of decades. So my viewpoint is definitely US IT-based.

Now first off, you definitely have to be business-like regardless. Being outright rude, vulgar, etc. isn't going to help. I am not saying that's happening here, just saying it is needed. I myself tend to have "a tone" (LOL) when dealing with things or people that irritate me, so even after all this time, I sometimes find myself writing several drafts of a message before sending, to make sure it is business-like.

My view is basically pick your boundaries and stick to them. Meaning, you were hired to do XXX type of job for XXX type of compensation. If all of a sudden you are being asked to do YYY, something totally out of your scope, there has to be a discussion - a discussion about if you should be doing YYY, does your compensation change, what is prioritization between XXX and YYY, etc. How much of a hard-ass you are about these discussions comes down to you - how much you want to do YYY, how scared you are of losing/leaving the job, how much extra $$ would be needed for you to do it, etc. Could be it's a fine addition/trade of work, could be it's a line in the sand that you just won't do it.

An example - I currently am doing Cloud Engineering. So for those who understand support levels at companies, I'm Level 3 Support. If I was told today that I had to do direct phone support (Level 1 Support) - taking support calls from an end client - it would be a hard no for me. As in, I don't care if they fire me, or how much money they offer, I won't do it - it's not something I would ever want to do.

On the other hand, if they told me I had to do more Web Design (which I dabble in, I create some web applications to front end some of the Cloud services), I'd have the discussion. Based on the scope and new responsibilities, I'd have the compensation discussion, if I felt I needed more. Because it's something I am interested in, something I feel would let me grow and learn.

I'd be able to make these decisions because I am not afraid of losing the job. I have enough $$ to handle it until I find another one.

When I was young and first starting out, it was different. I let managers, co-workers (hell, whole areas) walk all over me, take advantage of me. It ran me ragged, and I was not happy. So I just decided I wasn't going to do that any more. I have a broad scope of XXX that defines what my job is - if you try and add things outside of XXX to it, well, we need to discuss.

Obviously this isn't a "one size fits all" - in my XXX scope I refer to, there are jobs that have a HUGE scope. Certainly there are many times I am doing pieces of my job that I don't like to do, but that's the nature of any job. This whole post is more about things being thrown at you that just aren't your job, as currently defined.

I also chose long ago that I wasn't going to play politics. That was the same time that I decided I didn't care about moving up the corporate ladder. If you want to move up the corporate ladder, well, then you have to play politics, you have to play the whole corporate game. I detest that nonsense, so I don't do it. Has it hurt my career? Yes? No? I don't know, and more importantly, I don't care. I figure if I was overlooked or not offered a position because I don't play politics, then it's a job I didn't want anyways.

I don't know if any of this has helped or not. Just know you are not alone in the corporate struggle, and that at least in my opinion, you should continue to stand up for yourself.

ffj
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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

Post by ffj »

@Mac

We're in agreement. When I say "play the game" I mean don't put so much weight on work politics. It is to your benefit, not detriment, when you finally realize none of it matters so have some fun with it if you can. When you take the seriousness of it all away, then a group email at quitting time has very little importance. But yeah, don't let others take advantage of you.

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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

Post by jacob »

Also see viewtopic.php?p=285779#p285779 and onwards. Admittedly it's eminently easier to adopt a position of equanimous carelessness from a position of magnanimity, that is, being rich enough to comment from the sidelines.

Henry
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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

Post by Henry »

There was a recent conversation taking place between Shaquille O'Neal and some others ultra high net worth individuals that they make it a rule not to take advice from people who have less money than them. I can see such as a rule as reductionist in terms of ERE, but I do believe there is some validity to it. Not that one automatically follows said advice, but that it presents an aspirational picture of what down the road looks like. The worst advice I ever took was provided by people in the same position and mindset I was in.

SouthernAlchemy
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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

Post by SouthernAlchemy »

I don't know why, but this all reminds me of One Flew Over Cuckoo's Nest.

They thought Oku was Chief Broom, turns out he is McMurphy.

Be careful Oku, Nurse Ratched won't put up with McMurphy disrupting the ward for long.

It's great you stood up for yourself, but I don't think this is your playground, so be careful trying to play the game.

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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

Post by delay »

Henry wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2024 4:16 pm
There was a recent conversation taking place between Shaquille O'Neal and some others ultra high net worth individuals that they make it a rule not to take advice from people who have less money than them.
That's a good quote to think about! So O'Neal sees money as a measure of man. Perhaps that's the explanation for the "virtual reality" I've been seeing lately. A higher up must be right, and when facts contradict him, we will explain them away. The association with money is the force that keeps the virtual reality in existence.

Henry
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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

Post by Henry »

delay wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2024 6:15 am
So O'Neal sees money as a measure of man.
I think what Shaq meant was he only takes business/money advice from people who have more money than him. O'Neal has been very vocal recently about his failings as a husband and his warning to other athletes that despite all his material success the emptiness and regret he experiences upon his nightly return to an empty 100,000SF home.

With regard to Oku, I don't see his situation as being any more dramatic than the quiet kid who constantly gets picked on eventually punching back. When it happens, it's disruptive to the social order and embarrassing to those who get punched back and is demonstrative of the phenomenon of how quickly glass jawed bullies run for the cover of authority upon the first taste of their own blood.

I don't look at this as One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest because the scumbag crew is not a bunch of docile mental cases that can be manipulated into taking an unauthorized boat ride supervised by a bunch of hookers. The scumbag crew will adamantly resist any attempt by Oku to consolidate or expand his power. And from Oku's description, the only thing he demonstrated to Nurse Ratchett is that he too possesses sharp elbows and is not a mutinous threat to the smooth running of the combine.

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Lemur
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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

Post by Lemur »

@Henry

Well I agree with @SoutherAlchemy…hence my post above. Different games are being played anyway if Oku truly has one foot out the door. Oku may have won a battle / skirmish (even that’s debatable….) because scumbag crew was blindsided with a really unexpected move (its not everyday someone blows up over a nothingburger email) but scumbag crew will ultimately win the war. They will win through playing the long-haul and through experience. Where are Oku’s allies? He’s completely outmatched socially and politically.

Nothing can be done about it now, but its always best in conflicts to try to create a win-win (me-you) or even a win-win-win situation (me-you-us)*. I don’t think Oku did that. In this battle, Oku became possibly unreliable to the boss and not a “team player” to everyone else. Declining the engineering drafts or what have you could’ve very likely been accomplished without damaging relationships with everyone. I would save face and take the repair attempts but that’s just me. Setting boundaries can be done strategically.

Lastly, none of this matters anyway if Oku wants out by June. Hope he can learn from these recent experiences and grow from it.

* Presupposes that all players are mature individuals that are able to align with the same goal. Otherwise, this might not be possible. Leadership experience and wisdom are needed to know the difference between who can be reasoned with and who can’t.

Henry
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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

Post by Henry »

A belief I hold dear and live by, is that there is no crew strong enough, big enough, tight enough or smart enough that one individual cannot dismantle if they are both savvy enough, persistent enough and principled enough to take on. Crews have fissures to exploit in order to divide and conquer. They battle they do not war. They employ tactics not strategies. They lose interest. They do not like each other. They have secrets they kept from each other. They really do not know each other. They have petty jealousies between them. They are created over causes not beliefs. They turn on each other at the drop of a dime. They have degradations of commitment within them. They tend to align with other crews that prove to be uneven and potentially fatal. Look at the January 6 riots. So many crews, so many disparate reasons for participating. An ineffective cluster in the end. And what relationships did Oku damage? The ones with those who were smiling in his face and stabbing him in the back? What was he maintaining? He wasn't in the crew and they weren't going to let him in anyways. So now the crew has an Oku problem instead of Oku having a crew problem. Oku is smart enough and strong enough in himself to sit tight and let the crew eat itself from within which is what crews inevitably do the moment their status quo is disrupted. They hate change and they do not trust each other. It's every Feds vs. Mob movie ever made. I am not certain of the outcome or Oku's fate but there's nothing I enjoy more than watching is a crew of scumbags perspire because of the act of one principled individual. Call me a romantic. I hate fucking bullies.

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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Henry:

Do you think a teeny-tiny rare book dealer with some low level data-science skillz could take down J.Bozo and Humongous, Inc.?

@Oku:

Malicious compliance is another possibility that I've put to good use in such situations, but might be more in alignment with my personality type than yours. For example, if somebody from above issues a terrible/idiotic edict, you just keep smiling and asking question after question of the stooge-to-power-player at the meeting to launch the edict. IOW, you pretend like you really want to gain a better understanding of the edict, so that you can do your job better, but your questions eventually pull the curtain back on the Wizard of Oz in front of an audience of witnesses. Then you go on to pretend like the last bumbling response of the Stooge-to-Power was actually what you understood to be the last word on the matter and then you proceed to totally overkill in alignment with the bumbling response. This "over-kill" phase of malicious compliance works best if you are somewhere in mid-management, so you have a team who can magnify the effect. The funnest time I ever had with malicious compliance was when I pretended like I believed that the corporate mission statement actually was the mission of the corporation, and although nobody actually wanted me to do what I did, it actually ended up boosting sales, so I ended up being commended for my malicious compliant behavior.

Corporate hierarchical structure generally makes me want to puke, but any structure can be fun to play with for a bit.

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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

Post by okumurahata »

Thanks to all the responses, it’s good to sit in a virtual table having different perspectives to take decisions.

@Lemur,

I don’t see how refusing to take on work outside of my responsibilities makes me a bad team player. Taking an extreme example, I need to clean my home on weekends. It’s something I don’t enjoy, but it needs to be done. If tomorrow my boss comes and says he wants to establish an in-house cleaning service and everyone needs to pitch in (of course, he won’t touch the broom himself), should I do it? Would you do it?

Suddenly, the task of cleaning falls on @oku, with no added benefit and no help. He refuses, and now he’s labelled a bad team player. Fine, so be it. Remember, I was foolish enough to have cleaned the floor once, but when I handed the broom to a coworker, it took literally a day to send a passive-aggressive email, suggesting I do the task again.

On the other hand, it’s true that I don’t have allies and I’m not charismatic enough to create a rebellion. In other words, I’m not McMurphy. However, the intention is not to rebel against the system; the big picture is becoming financially independent first (with dignity) while having the freedom to go to another place when the time is right.

Being a team player, proactive, creating win-win situations and being a nice guy to work with is the kind of rubbish listed in books such as the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, which is like a manifesto created by the worst characters of HR to make people docile and comply with absurdity.

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Lemur
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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

Post by Lemur »

@Oku

I think there are slivers of truth to what @Henry is posting and a lot of my response to you is somewhat contrarian in nature done purposely. I don't have all the details of your workplace and your colleagues so I can really only infer about things based on what you post. And of course, I don't get your co-workers side of the story. So this is partly entertaining but mostly I want to aim to provide a different perspective on how to look at this conflict holistically.
@Lemur,

I don’t see how refusing to take on work outside of my responsibilities makes me a bad team player. Taking an extreme example, I need to clean my home on weekends. It’s something I don’t enjoy, but it needs to be done. If tomorrow my boss comes and says he wants to establish an in-house cleaning service and everyone needs to pitch in (of course, he won’t touch the broom himself), should I do it? Would you do it?
Generally speaking, yes you should pitch in if your other teammates are also pitching in. It is also something your boss wants done. Taking on the tasks builds goodwill with your boss and also your colleagues. So would I do it? Yes. I also wouldn't expect the boss to pitch in either. That isn't their role in this. Keeping your first-line supervisor / boss happy makes life a hell of a lot easier in a work environment. As long as their requests aren't totally unreasonable, I see no problem with doing what I am told. There is a humbleness that comes with knowing your role and place in a business hierarchy. I don't know about you, but I prefer harmony and not adversarial relationships at a place I spend 40+ hours a week. Its a small world - if you stay in your industry, then these same colleagues you'll meet again one day. No one remembers tasks details, but they will remember how individuals made them feel when working together. Lastly...good leadership is built on good followership. No, I have not read habits of highly effective people :lol: .

In your particular situation, I don't think it makes you objectively a bad team player to refuse work you don't want to do if you're overburdened with other responsibilities or if the work is far out of scope with your job duties and responsibilities. This just needs to be communicated effectively. I put team player in quotes from my prior post because work politics is never all objective. There is a perception and subjectivity that comes with declining work. Refusing work ought to be done delicately (as there are perceptual social risks involved) and really only done if one understands the type of power* they wield. Someone else mentioned work culture differences and maybe that all this is but I do get the sense that this was a bit of an overreaction that really stemmed from months of bottling up frustration and resentment on your part.

* https://knowledgebank.mgscc.net/5-diffe ... eadership/

Most individual contributors do not have coercive, reward, or legitimate power. They can have referent power or expert power. For instance, expert power is a favorite among software developer types. In other words, "I can refuse this task because I am so damn good at this thing I am an expert in that it would hurt for you to potentially lose me as an employee if you try to coerce me into doing something I don't want to do."

I suppose there is also FI/FU power which is not listed hehe. One day Oku you will have this truly and I'm looking forward to it. :)
Suddenly, the task of cleaning falls on @oku, with no added benefit and no help. He refuses, and now he’s labelled a bad team player. Fine, so be it. Remember, I was foolish enough to have cleaned the floor once, but when I handed the broom to a coworker, it took literally a day to send a passive-aggressive email, suggesting I do the task again.
I don't believe these situations are ever created out of a vacuum. What is your relationship like with this co-worker? Have you refused to help them in the past? Do you take up their offers to meet for lunch/coffee? What do you know about them? What do they know about you? Have you worked together on projects before? Did co-worker attempt to build a relationship in the past but you had refused? Perhaps they feel slighted. We can't mind read that is for sure - but I get the sense that a relationship with this co-worker has not been built. Or perhaps it was already adversarial. Otherwise, this situation would've never happened to begin with. Allies don't do that with each other. I also don't blame you fully for this situation. This is partly your boss's fault for what sounds like an ineffective team culture. Maybe, they should've came to you directly if this was that important.
On the other hand, it’s true that I don’t have allies and I’m not charismatic enough to create a rebellion. In other words, I’m not McMurphy. However, the intention is not to rebel against the system; the big picture is becoming financially independent first (with dignity) while having the freedom to go to another place when the time is right.
You can get away with not having allies especially at the lower-levels in a hierarchy as long as your boss is happy with you. Just don't get the attention of wolves or bandits from same-level peers. Or make yourself something of a enigma that the bandits feel isn't worth bothering with.

Example of what I've personally done is whenever co-workers try to get me to help them with something I don't want to do, I usually just ask a billion questions about the task. I even get a bit philosophical and get them to question why the task is important. And I usually end with pointing towards resources, tools, and training materials that can help them. I've even offered to train. That tells me right there if they really want to learn (they take up the offer) or if they're being lazy and just trying to pass me their shit. I hate show horses as much as the next person :lol: Needless to say, I rarely ever get tasks from colleagues I don't want to be involved with. Luckily at my work this rarely happens anyway.

Agree that rebelling against a moving train never really works for anybody. I tried that in my past. Doesn't work.
Being a team player, proactive, creating win-win situations and being a nice guy to work with is the kind of rubbish listed in books such as the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, which is like a manifesto created by the worst characters of HR to make people docile and comply with absurdity.
Or maybe its just a mark of maturity? You can be assertive without being aggressive. You can set boundaries without being an asshole. You can also be a good team player while avoiding those tasks in which you don't want to take part in. You can also build relationships with your co-workers so you get to know them and they get to know you....and you don't have to be friends to do this.

I understand it can be incredibly frustrating to deal with colleagues who might never understand you, your values, and what you stand for. But if these aren't expressed and if you never make the effort to get to know them and respect them, then why would they want to understand and respect you?

Earlier you posted this guideline "If a flawed player points a gun at you, point a gun at them." Have you put yourself in their shoes and tried to see how you could be the flawed player in this situation? Have you considered why they might be pointing a gun at you? For someone to raise a gun, you had to have did something to prompt that whether directly or indirectly. Its rare to have a random shooting. Also, why point a gun back? Is there a better way to respond that doesn't involve figurative violence? I'd say if you work at a place that truly only has pointing a gun back as a way to solve problems, then you outta just quit for your own sanity. Sometimes environments just suck and there is no fixing.

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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

Post by okumurahata »

The problem, as I see it, @Lemur, is trying to solve the situation with a corporate mindset when there is a general corporate issue in the first place. It’s natural, as we work in a corporate environment, and it’s how we solve problems; trying to maintain harmony for as long as possible within a company without getting into trouble.

Imagine I had a small business instead, selling computers to a boss, with coworker A as an intermediary.

One day, coworker A comes and says that the boss wants to save some costs at work, so he wants, with the same price he is paying, a computer and some software to design products. For example, a Figma license.

The first reaction would be, ‘Well, we don’t sell that software here, but you can go to buy it at Figma dot com.’ Coworker A goes to the boss and tells him the situation. The next day, coworker A sends an email to the small business owner; the offer remains the same.

Again, as a business owner, would you comply with the offer to not damage the relationship with the boss and coworker A?

I probably wouldn’t. Everyone would find the response of the small business owner reasonable, and if you talk badly about me, it would be your problem and something out of my control. But somehow, in corporate environments, employees are expected to take the disadvantage of a bad deal. And they are also expected to go to breakfast with the team, put a smile on their face as if nothing happened, and be content that at least they have a job.

If I feel that you are trying to gain an advantage in a deal, I would show you my middle corporate finger, without strategically thinking if we need to work again in the future. Because you might say that @oku is an asshole and you will probably be right, but I won’t have anything to do with you in the future either.

When I worked at the library, I needed to rotate to multiple locations. Franchises are the same, but the group of people and culture vary greatly between places. With some groups, you naturally click better, with others, it’s a nightmare to work with. It’s just pure luck and the way the cards are dealt.

At this stage in life, I want genuine relationships; in other words, I don't want to be the type of person who likes LinkedIn posts from his company and attends company events just to demonstrate what a good team player I am. Call me immature if you wish.

If it were up to me, I would have quit the job after 9 months, when the first contract was up. But for personal reasons (girlfriend moving to the country) I have been longer than I wish. After 2 years, it’s time to question some things; this is not a dream job that I do for pleasure, so I don’t want to become institutionalised.

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Lemur
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Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

Post by Lemur »

Business Owner may be operating on thin margins in a competitive environment so in order to maintain positive cash flows, they implement these in-house plans as cost cutting measures to keep the business alive and to keep paying their employees. Employees expect increased wages to match inflation at least, so business owners hands are tied as they must do things to continually grow top revenues and cut costs to improve bottom-lines to remain competitive. These tasks should be no problem for the employees to take on as they’re paid on salary and are expected to perform. Sometimes employees don’t get along as a team but that is expected so focus on aligned mission, values, and culture does actually help though the real introverts may roll their eyes a bit.

Point I’ve been making from the beginning is to try to see opposing player’s perspectives. Everyone has a role to play and I think most people don’t inherently act out of malice. Possibly out of fear and/or competitiveness. We do what we’re trained to do…and conform for the most part.

I almost didn’t want to post that Oku because tbh I think we post past one another a little bit. This conversation is eerily similar to the one we had at the beginning of your journal. Instead, might be more productive to think in terms of value systems. I think ours are different! And nothing wrong with that.

Lemur has no issue with putting on corporate stooge / bureaucrat hat from 9-5 daily and switching to another hat after work. I thought maybe this was just a skill but its becoming more apparent to me that this is a value and personality difference that may not be in the cards for Oku (correct me if I am wrong) so I think that is a key difference between us. Totally fine. Lemur is also FI already so it’s easier to be in the peanut gallery and more difficult to meet you where you’re at. I’ll try better to understand your perspective.

Scott 2
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Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:34 pm

Re: Embracing Solitude: INTJ's Journey Towards Retirement

Post by Scott 2 »

Consider that multiple people who have escaped the institution, are telling you the same thing.

We share your frustration. We're coming back to this thread, because we see ourselves in your experience.

I know for a fact - I didn't receive this message the first time I heard it. I spent years butting heads, needlessly frustrated.

I essentially A/B tested my way into what Lemur describes. It's only with the benefit of hindsight, that I can appreciate the why.

Turns out - it was a me problem. My authenticate self has pointy bits. Poking others upsets them, even if it's accidental on my part.


Remove the institution, and the challenges don't go away. They take a different form, with fewer guard rails, that is even harder to navigate.

The disagreeable business owner in your scenario, will find himself out of business. He'll lose to someone who figures out how to meet the figma need. Then they'll come along and eat his other business too.

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