Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity

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theanimal
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Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity

Post by theanimal »

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0593236599

The book is similar to ERE book in the sense that it places a priority on strategy over tactics. This was a pleasant surprise and something I have not encountered in nearly any other book on the subject. For anyone that has listened to his podcast, The Drive, it is occasionally extremely technical and I was worried that the book would be similar and not approachable for laymen like myself. Apparently that was how the first draft of the book went and he completely rewrote it. What's published is very much approachable while still standing well above the pop science fluff books that are more anecdotes and stories than actual information. Attia writes about how we should think about approaching increasing health span, helps to reframe the concept of risk with regards to personal healthcare and what categories are most important on looking at and dialing in on an individual basis.

He starts out by talking about the different levels of medicine throughout history, what he calls Medicine 1.0 and Medicine 2.0. Medicine 1.0 existed from Hippocrates to around the mid 19th century and is the idea that there is something in the environment that can affect human health and that we can treat that (often erroneously as in the case of bloodletting). Medicine 2.0 was the improved sanitation, introduction of scientific process and increased experimentation and an increase in medical technologies and is most of what is practiced today. Medicine 2.0 is good at treating problems. Thanks to Medicine 2.0 human society has gone from dying from fast deaths like infections, accidents, broken bones etc to slow deaths like atherosclerosis, cancer, alzheimers etc. But Medicine 2.0 focuses on treating diseases and is terrible at preventing them. Medicine 2.0 has increased lifespan, but it has not increased healthspan, the amount of time someone lives unencumbered by disease. Which brings us to Medicine 3.0, which Attia says takes a longer look at health from an individual perspective with a far greater focus on preventing or forestalling the diseases that nearly everyone ends up succumbing to.
“Medicine 3.0 demands much more from you, the patient: You must be well informed, medically literate to a reasonable degree, clear-eyed about your goals and cognizant of the true nature of risk. You must be willing to change ingrained habits, accept new challenges and venture outside of your comfort zone if necessary. You are always participating, never passive. You confront problems, even uncomfortable or scary ones, rather than ignoring them until it’s too late. You have skin in the game, in a very literal sense. And you make important decisions.
The above quote reminded me of @iDave, who has fully embodied that quote over the last few months.

Part two starts off discussing some of the genetics of longevity and will be familiar to many on here who are interested in the topic and have followed the works David Sinclair and Andrew Hubermann. He discusses centenarians and how their key to longevity is not likely in the specific way they live, given that many of them engaged in habits like drinking, smoking and poor diet that would be harmful to the average person, but rather the luck of the draw in having specific genes and molecules that promote longevity. He discusses a few examples including APO-E, rapamyacin and mTor, all of which have been shown to slow cell aging.

The rest of part 2 looks at each of what he calls the Four Horsemen of Chronic disease: "foundational disease", atherosclerotic disease, cancer and Alzheimer's. He first looks at "foundational disease" (insulin resistance/diabetes and a few other things) and posits that the first and most important step in delaying death is getting metabolic health in order. Medicine 2.0 doesn't treat someone for diabetes or metabolic syndrome until they have already passed the threshold of meeting at least 3 of the markers*. Attia argues that is foolish as the person is already more likely to develop disease down the line and is already at impaired health. He prefers to use more specific measurements to keep track of whether someone is at risk For his patients, he monitors for things like elevated uric acid, elevated homocysteine, chronic inflammation, the ratio of triglycerides to HDL cholesterol (says it should be less than 2:1, better would be less than 1:1) as well as levels of VLDL (lipoprotein that carries triglycerides. However, the most important thing he looks for to indicate metabolic disorder is elevated levels of insulin, which on its own is associated with huge increases in risk of cancer, Alzheimer's disease and cardiovascular disease, not to mention the risk of type 2 diabetes. Along with those markers, he makes his patients take a yearly DEXA scan to check for visceral fat.

*High blood pressure (>130/85; high triglycerides (>150 mg/dL);low HDL cholesterol (<40 mg/dL in men or <50 mg/dL in women) 4. central adiposity (waist circumference >40 inches in men or > 35 in. in women); elevated fasting glucose (>110 mg/dL)

Heart disease is the leading cause of death by far, killing 2,300 people in the US every day. Men are not he only one's at risk. American women are ten times more likely to die from atherosclerotic disease than from breast cancer (1 in 3 versus 1 in 30). Commonly thought to be a disease of the old, half of cardiac events happen before age 65 in the US and frequently cardiac damage is found in people as early as their teens. He says cholesterol numbers do not tell much whereas the far more useful metrics are their lipoprotein carriers, specifically apoB and Lp (a). He argues that apoB and Lp(a) are the first things he looks at in a blood panel for his patients when concerned about cardiovascular disease. These vehicles of cholesterol have shown to be causal whereas while ""bad" and total cholesterol may be associated with increased risk of heart disease, they have not shown to be causal. He takes an aggressive stance against minimizing apoB, with both diet and medicine. Diet wise it is mainly limiting saturated fat, as for some people that can significantly increase apoB levels. But his aim is to get apoB levels as low as possible, to that of babies, which cannot be achieved by diet alone, especially if you have already suffered cardiac damage. There are currently no drugs on the market which reduce Lp(a) so instead he focuses on decreasing apoB. He prescribes statins and other lipid managing drugs to his patients early and often and takes them himself as well. There is also a section in the beginning of the chapter how he talks about how he was more or less awakened to the risk of cardiovascular disease after getting a coronary arterial calcium (CAC) test at age 36 and having a level of 6**. He now recommends coronary angiograms over CAC tests if possible (although they do cost more) as they can show a buildup of soft plaque and evidence of cardiovascular disease that a CAC scan would otherwise miss.

**Low in an absolute sense but at that age higher than 75-90% of people in his age cohort and equivalent to that of a 55 year old. This was weeks after he swam across the Catalina Channel (21 miles).
pg. 135
Nearly all adults are coping with some degree of vascular damage, no matter how young and vital they may seem, or how pristine their arteries appear on scans. There is always damage, especially in regions of shear stress and elevated local blood pressure, such as curves and splits in the vasculature. Atherosclerosis is with us, in some form, throughout our life course. Yet most doctors consider it "overtreatment" to intervene if a patient's computed ten year risk of major adverse cardiac risk (e.g., heart attack or stroke) is below 5 percent, arguing that the benefits are not greater than the risks, or that treatment costs too much. In my opinion, this betrays a broader ignorance about a time horizon. If we want to reduce deaths from cardiovascular disease, we need to begin thinking about prevention in people in their forties and even thirties.

Another way to think of all this is that someone might be considered "low risk" at a given point-but on what time horizon? The standard is ten years. But what if our time horizon is "the rest of your life?"

Then nobody is at low risk.
pg. 137
Once you understand that apoB particles-LDL, VLDL, LP (a)- are causally linked to ASCVD, the game completely changes. The only way to stop the disease is to remove the cause, and the best time to do that is now.

Still struggling with this idea? Consider the following example. We know that smoking is causally linked to lung cancer. Should we tell someone to stop smoking only after their ten-year risk of lung cancer reaches a certain threshold? That is, do we think it's okay for people to keep smoking until they are sixty-five and then quit? Or should we do everything we can to help young people, who have maybe just picked up the habit, quit altogether?

When viewed this way, the answer is unambiguous. The sooner you cut the head off the snake, the lower the risk that it will bite you.
That is roughly the first third of the book. The rest of part 2 discusses cancer and Alzheimer's disease. Part 3 focuses on 4 of Attia's 5 pillars of health and is more of a tactical approach: Movement/Exercise, Sleep, Nutritional biochemistry and Emotional health (the 5th is medication/supplements). I will post updates as I read. So far, I would highly recommend it.

black_son_of_gray
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Re: Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity

Post by black_son_of_gray »

Great write-up! Thanks for taking the time.

guitarplayer
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Re: Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity

Post by guitarplayer »

I somehow manage to escape the hype of podcasts so had to look up the author. BSc degree in mechanical engineering in applied mathematics followed by a medical school. So I imagine could be a rather reductionist outlook on the body.

Does the book read like a prescription or rather he presents facts for the reader to make up their mind?

7Wannabe5
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Re: Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Interesting. I have also been following IDave's experiments with some interest since we are age peersand I need to get back in shape. The weird thing about me is that I am kind of the opposite of the guy who appears to be fit, but has bad markers, because I appear to be unfit and I have Crohn's which is a chronic-genetic (not lifestyle) disease which is inflammatory, but my metabolic markers are very good. For instance, my triglycerides to HDL is 1, and my non-fasting glucose is below 110, and my AST is 21. The only thing good about my diet is that I consistently eat a wide variety of fruits and vegetables along with the pastry. Meat and potatos bores me. So, I think it must just be due to the hormonal legacy that also renders my ass VERY well-padded.

theanimal
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Re: Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity

Post by theanimal »

guitarplayer wrote:
Sat May 06, 2023 6:15 am
Does the book read like a prescription or rather he presents facts for the reader to make up their mind?
I wouldn't say it reads like a prescription. Attia is largely agnostic about the methods, such as diet, exercise, supplementation. He does have specific markers he finds important with regards to his patients but how they are able to achieve those varies on an individual basis. Generally, such as in the case of the section on cancer, he is not afraid to state where the research is lacking and there is not enough evidence to support a certain argument. He is also not afraid to indicate where he was wrong in the past. For example he used to be a diet evangelist, thinking there was only one true diet (keto) but changed his mind on that and thinks eating styles vary depending on the individual and that specific diets like keto or veganism can be harmful to certain individuals.

But overall the book is structured in each sections as follows: general introduction to disease; what medicine 2.0 does in relation to the disease; what the current research indicates as best practices for prevention. That may read prescriptive, but I have so far seen it more as the presentation of information and making the case why you should pay attention to certain measures. Like how the ERE book book makes the case for things like savings rate or diversified income streams.

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Re: Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity

Post by guitarplayer »

Thanks @theanimal, appreciate the feedback!

IlliniDave
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Re: Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity

Post by IlliniDave »

I've encountered him a time or two but never really in a context where I listened to him in depth. Maybe I'll download the kindle ebook on my laptop for consumption up at the hideout in a few weeks.

Just going off your synopsis, he appears to be in opposition to most of the longevity/"fixing" metabolic disfunction medical folks I've read/listened to when it comes to aggressive use of statins and other cholesterol production inhibitors (aside from presence of a couple relatively rare genetic conditions). The consensus in those authorities is that blaming cholesterol, particularly LDL, for cardiovascular disease is akin to blaming ambulances for traffic accidents. It does appear that he acknowledges cholesterol/lipids has not been shown to be causal. Others in his space seem to feel that LDL is too important to mess with because of it's role in a large number of bodily processes (e.g., the immune system) absent a genetic malfunction. So the emphasis is on addressing underlying issues that cause the body to correctly produce LDL to deal with the issues as best as it can.

Of course, after four months of trying to do all the right things my CVD risk ticked up a little bit according to the scale my local healthcare system/network uses. I'll have to mention to my MD next week about checking the transport molecules. I've been pretty firmly against statins because I am also battling a progression towards type-II diabetes, which statins appear to exacerbate. I won a significant battle on that front over the last 4 months, but the war rages on. Robert Lustig frequently likes to point that the best meta analyses available indicate that statins add about 4 days to lifespan. I also heard a talk that unfortunately I can't give a reference for that high-dose statin's role in immune suppression was linked to worse covid outcomes, which sort of sealed the deal for me, as they say.

Thanks for mentioning the book. Seems like it will be a matter of balancing risk/reward for me. I thought I had that space defined and my decision made, but I'm perfectly willing to change my mind if newer, better evidence surfaces.

theanimal
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Re: Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity

Post by theanimal »

Thanks for your thoughts, @iDave. Based off of my reading, I'm not sure he is in disagreement with the folks you have read regarding cholesterol. There are about 3 pages worth of him railing against the common practice of using cholesterol as a measure for cardiovascular health, he considers it nearly worthless. He places his emphasis on looking at the proteins and lipoproteins associated with cholesterol (of which he says statins have been shown effective to reduce).

I am also very skeptical of his recommendation on the use of statins, especially starting in your 30s or 40s. From my understanding, there have shown to be many negative side effects and no real conclusive long term data on whether they are effective. I listened to cardiologist Dr. Aseem Malhotra on Joe Rogan not long before starting this book and he spent much of the talk discussing the negative effects of statins, including that 4 day benefit number you mentioned. So with that in mind, I am have a hard time seeing Attia's point in their effectiveness. To steelman Attia's argument , statins are only a component in the system he is building to combat this stuff, not THE thing like with the average American in this predicament who doesn't make any changes to their lifestyle. The emphasis is on holistic approach comprising nutrition, sleep, exercise and mental health. In his view things like supplements and statins are low risk practices that can lower the markers that he believes are most important.

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Re: Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity

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As mentioned above, the rest of part 2 covers the final 2 horsemen: cancer and Alzheimer’s. Below are my notes:

Once cancer is established we still lack highly effective treatments for it. Surgery is an option but is of limited value once a cancer has metastasized. Metastatic cancers can be slowed by chemotherapy but almost always come back and when they do, they are often more resistant to treatment.

3 part strategy for dealing with cancer. First is to avoid getting it at all. Obesity and excess weight is associated with over a dozen variety of cancers. He says that the only modifiable risks that really stand out in the data are smoking, insulin resistance and obesity and maybe pollution (air, water etc) but says the data there is less clear. He discusses some studies that indicate that calorie restriction and improving the metabolic function can decrease cancer activity but does not say that it starves the cancer cell or that one diet will be most effective for all individuals.

Second is using newer/smarter treatments to target cancer’s weaknesses. Much of this is still being developed, is not completely proven and is in the clinical stage. Some of it is medication and other is specific treatments to cells to get them to recognize the cancerous cells and attack them on their own. Attia mentions that much of this practices have seen to pair well with good metabolic solutions, but there is not any conclusive information on the pairing of the two to combat cancer to date.

Third is to detect cancer as early as possible. Attia thinks that early, frequent checks are the best measure for dealing with some cancers and that doing nothing can be the most dangerous thing. He emphasizes taking care of the low hanging fruit such as in the case of colonoscopy. Colorectal cancer is the 3rd most prevalent cancer and is the easiest among the top 5 (lung, breast, pancreas, liver) to detect and treat. Traditional guidelines for someone of average risk has been recommended screening starting at age 50 then to 75, with screenings every 10 years if nothing is discovered. Attia recommends starting at age 40 for average risk, and sooner for those with higher risk (family history). He also recommends repeating the process every 2-3 years, less if something is found. The only other cancers that are easy to spot are skin cancers, melanomas and cervical cancer. There are new ways that are being developed such as liquid biopsies and blood tests, but Attia doesn’t believe that they are completely effective solutions as of yet.

The last of the 4 horsemen is Alzheimer’s. Women have 2x the risk of Alzheimer’s as men, potentially thought to be related to the hormone changes that occur during menopause. It is the most difficult of the 4 diseases because we have limited understanding of how and why it begins and there aren’t treatment options. It remains to date not possible to stop. The dominant theory of Alzheimer’s disease since the 1980s is that it is caused directly by an accumulation of amyloid-beta in the brain. There have been drugs developed to eliminate amyloid*but even when they have succeeded in practice, they have not slowed the disease or improved cognitive function. In the past few years, there has been an active debate over whether amyloid actually is the cause of Alzheimer’s or whether it is just associated. There are proteins that have been shown to indicate higher risk of the disease. APOE e4 variant has been shown to increase someone’s risk for Alzheimer’s, as well as Parkinson’s disease with dementia and Lewy body dementia.

The idea of Alzheimer’s prevention is relatively new (roughly the past decade). He says the single most important preventive tool is exercise, which helps maintain glucose homeostasis and the health of our vasculature. Both endurance and strength training is important. Sleep is another important factor as disruptions in sleep and poor sleep quality can prevent the brain from “cleaning up” and also serve as a contributor to insulin resistance. There is research that says one can become more resilient against cognitive decline by building a large number of neural networks (cognitively challenging activities) in your brain via education, experience and/or complex skills like learning an instrument or speaking a foreign language. Like with the other horsemen, Attia believes that getting one’s metabolic house in order is a key to prevention. There is also some evidence that supplementation with omega 3 fatty acid DH may help maintain brain health, especially in people who have the e4 variant. He also argues that this is an area where ketogenic diet has an advantage since studies of Alzheimer's patients find their ability to use glucose in their brain declines, but their ability to use ketones does not. He concludes by discussing a number of other measures that may have the potential to maintain brain health but aren’t as conclusive yet including: brushing and flossing teeth, dry saunas, B vitamins, vitamin D and hormone replacement therapy in women.
Pg. 205 [author’s emphasis throughout]

Broadly our strategy should be based on the following principles:

1. WHAT’S GOOD FOR THE HEART IS GOOD FOR THE BRAIN. That is, vascular health (meaning low apoB, low inflammation and low oxidative stress) is crucial to brain health
2. WHAT’S GOOD FOR THE LIVER (AND PANCREAS) IS GOOD FOR THE BRAIN. Metabolic health is crucial to brain health.
3. TIME IS KEY. We need to think about prevention early, and the more the deck is stacked against you genetically, the harder you need to work and the sooner you need to start. As with cardiovascular disease, we need to play a very long game.
4. OUR MOST POWERFUL TOOL FOR PREVENTING COGNITIVE DECLINE IS EXERCISE. We’ve talked a lot about diet and metabolism, but exercise appears to act in multiple ways (vascular, metabolic) to preserve brain health; we’ll get into detail in Part III, but exercise-lots of it-is a foundation of our Alzheimer’s prevention program.
That concludes Part II and what he defines as the strategy section of the book. Part III takes more of a tactical approach to exercise, nutritional biochemistry, sleep and mental health. I’m about halfway through that part and will share my notes when I’m done.

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Re: Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity

Post by theanimal »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat May 06, 2023 8:16 am
Interesting. I have also been following IDave's experiments with some interest since we are age peersand I need to get back in shape. The weird thing about me is that I am kind of the opposite of the guy who appears to be fit, but has bad markers, because I appear to be unfit and I have Crohn's which is a chronic-genetic (not lifestyle) disease which is inflammatory, but my metabolic markers are very good. For instance, my triglycerides to HDL is 1, and my non-fasting glucose is below 110, and my AST is 21. The only thing good about my diet is that I consistently eat a wide variety of fruits and vegetables along with the pastry. Meat and potatos bores me. So, I think it must just be due to the hormonal legacy that also renders my ass VERY well-padded.
He says that when he starts with new patients, before establishing any kind of tactical plan in nutrition and exercise he asks 3 questions:
a. Are they overnourished or undernourished? That is are they taking in too may or too few calories?
b. Are they under muscled or adequately muscled?
c. Are they metabolically healthy or not?

I seem to remember you saying you like to outsource the muscle to some of your partners, with this in mind should we now be anticipating you joining the burpee competition and VO2 max challenge? ;)

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Re: Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity

Post by Smashter »

Thanks for the writeups, the book sounds interesting.

I started reading Attia's blog about a decade ago, then I got disillusioned and stopped. I was particularly annoyed by how he started and hyped up an organization to study the causes of obesity (NuSI) only to abandon it once it seemed like the experiments weren’t going to work out as he hoped. He also helped make sure NuSI’s own data, which challenged the carbohydrate-insulin hypothesis model, did not make it to scientific journals. ( This post from another nutrition researcher covers some of the problems with NuSI in a level-headed way. The author had multiple conversations with Attia before publishing.)

From what you posted it seems Attia is making mostly solid recommendations. I can wholeheartedly get behind the idea that the SAD diet/lifestyle is messing people and that we can all be doing a lot more to maximize our healthspan. If he helps drive home that message to more people, good on him!

[edited to remove a paragraph that came across as more negative and off-topic than I intended]
Last edited by Smashter on Sat May 06, 2023 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

IlliniDave
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Re: Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity

Post by IlliniDave »

theanimal wrote:
Sat May 06, 2023 11:59 am
... He places his emphasis on looking at the proteins and lipoproteins associated with cholesterol (of which he says statins have been shown effective to reduce) ... To steelman Attia's argument , statins are only a component in the system he is building to combat this stuff, not THE thing like with the average American in this predicament who doesn't make any changes to their lifestyle. The emphasis is on holistic approach comprising nutrition, sleep, exercise and mental health. In his view things like supplements and statins are low risk practices that can lower the markers that he believes are most important.
I think you're right that what might reconcile Attia with some of the others is the emphasis on disorder reflected in the protein/lipoprotein transport molecules, which may not have a 1:1 correspondence with "high cholesterol". I have to admit that when authorities get into the weeds of the biochemical technicalities my eyes sometimes glaze over. I really need to go back and review some of those materials (plus, I downloaded the Kindle of the subject book) to chart my Medicine 3.0 (iDave) course should things not improve for me over the next 6 months as I ease into my intended steady state lifestyle regimen since my blood lipids didn't do what I expected them to over the last 5 months. I mentioned in my journal recently that I think still being in a state of physiological flux might mean my latest numbers don't tell the whole story.

One of the other reasons I tend to dismiss lipid-related concerns is my family epidemiology. Nearly everyone on both sides of my lineage have, or had, "high cholesterol". But there's very little heart disease in the family, and very few cases of exemplary lifestyles in the generations that followed my great-grandparents. Including my cohort, some of whom are over 60 now and going back two generations including my siblings and cousins, and siblings of my parents and grandparents (17 people in mine, 7 in my parents', and 20+ in my grandparent's generations) there's only two cases of heart disease and one death attributed to it that I'm aware of. I have a great uncle on my mom's side who began to experience heart failure in his late 80s and died of it at age 92. One my dad's side I have an aunt who had some type of heart disease, but she was obese most of her adult life as well as being a heavy smoker and drinker (poster child for hard living). In her early 70s she got a pacemaker and improved her lifestyle somewhat, then went on in decent health until she died of cancer in her 80s.

That makes me hopeful I can survive "high cholesterol" if I take care with overall lifestyle, but probably be best if I gather data to ensure I'm not an anomaly in my family tree.

You bring up another great point that there isn't a one-size-fits-all approach to this, and we all have to really figure out how we react to the lifestyle environment we create for ourselves. If I ate the way 7Wb5 eats (carb-heavy with lots of fruit and pastries/cupcakes, etc., per her descriptions over the years), ere would be moot and I'd either be existing in a state of morbidity or dead of diabetes, where she has near perfect metabolic health. Things that work for me (e.g., carb restriction and fasting) might worsen other people's health span.

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Re: Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity

Post by theanimal »

@Smashter-Thanks for sharing that post. I remember of hearing of NuSi many years ago but didn't know what ended up happening to it. It seems like sometime between the end of that and the starting of his podcast, Attia lost the dogmatism and ideology that he had concerning the field of nutrition. At least based off of the book and some of the podcasts I've heard, he is far more humbled now, realizing that it is far more complex than an individual can understand and there is no one size fits all. This page is in the section on nutrition:
Image

Smashter
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Re: Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity

Post by Smashter »

I'm really happy you shared that. I would never have guessed he'd have a section in his book so clearly acknowledging his past faults.

I gotta hand it to him, that's impressive. I don't think many people in his shoes would do that. He has regained a fan!

7Wannabe5
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Re: Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

theanimal wrote:
a. Are they overnourished or undernourished? That is are they taking in too may or too few calories?
b. Are they under muscled or adequately muscled?
c. Are they metabolically healthy or not?

a. definitely overnourished
b. highly depends on where you are looking
c. yes, if lab results are to be believed
I seem to remember you saying you like to outsource the muscle to some of your partners, with this in mind should we now be anticipating you joining the burpee competition and VO2 max challenge? ;)
Sure, on the same day you guys join me in twerking competition.

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Re: Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity

Post by Lemur »

@Smashter

I think you might be confusing Peter Attia with Gary Taubes. The latter having been the one to be really pushing the carbohydrate-insulin hypothesis model of obesity. And to this day hasn't given up on that...

Which has always been strange to me. NuSi set out to prove that model and it failed the hypothesis - from a science point of view, that should still be a win but I guess grifters gonna grift?

Peter Attia and Stephan Guyenet ("The Hungry Brain" is a fantastic book btw) seem to be getting along quite well...
https://youtu.be/9G3iLbQCIHI

In any case not to get off-topic into potential diet wars (the old CICO vs Carb-Insulin debate), I've been listening to Attia's podcasts for the past few weeks catching up. A lot of really interesting stuff! Shoot- wish I had the foresight at 18 to get into the medical field somewhere. Cardiology can be a life-long study. Along with the Vo2 max thread...it has convinced me to really up my cardio and I've been doing zone 2 training for almost 2 weeks now (up to 3-4 sessions a week of 1 hour cardio).

Thanks for sharing @theanimal. I've Attia book on request at my local library.

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Re: Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity

Post by mathiverse »

Lemur wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 2:58 pm
I think you might be confusing Peter Attia with Gary Taubes.
Nope. Attia used to be a big proponent of that back in the day.

Here is a link to Peter Attia's old website, The War on Insulin.

It's good that people can update their views in light of new evidence.

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Re: Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity

Post by Lemur »

@mathiverse.

I stand corrected! Yes, this is certainly a good thing. Seems Attia has done a total 180 on this topic in the past 11 years then.
I used to frequent the bodybuilding forums in the 2000s-2010s and the CICO vs Carbohydrate-Insulin Model was quite the raging war...actually surprised this is still going on in 2023. Extreme Keto / Carnivore diet is something of an offshoot from the latter model and those debates taken to its logical end.

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Re: Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity

Post by M »

Just wanted to chime in as another voice saying this is an awesome book. A lot of good information.

If you're on the fence about buying it, you should buy it. Much better written and full of practical advice with detailed reasoning and studies than I expected.

IlliniDave
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Re: Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity

Post by IlliniDave »

Lemur wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 2:58 pm
@Smashter

I think you might be confusing Peter Attia with Gary Taubes. The latter having been the one to be really pushing the carbohydrate-insulin hypothesis model of obesity. And to this day hasn't given up on that...

Which has always been strange to me. NuSi set out to prove that model and it failed the hypothesis - from a science point of view, that should still be a win but I guess grifters gonna grift?
I'm partway through the book, and the amount of attention Attia gives to insulin resistance being at the core of metabolic dysfunction and the downstream chronic diseases (NAFLD, trype-II diabetes, heart disease, obesity, and perhaps dementia) that are part of a rising epidemic is pretty substantial.
It is beyond backwards that we do not treat hyperinsulinemia like a bona fide endocrine disorder of its own. I would argue that doing so might have a greater impact on human health and longevity than any other target of therapy. In the next three chapters, we will explore the three other major diseases of aging—cardiovascular disease, cancer, and neurodegenerative diseases—all of which are fueled in some way by metabolic dysfunction. It will hopefully become clear to you, as it is to me, that the logical first step in our quest to delay death is to get our metabolic house in order.

Attia MD, Peter . Outlive (p. 110). Harmony/Rodale. Kindle Edition.
I think the thing that's changed in the last decade or so is a better understanding of insulin resistance, and although I haven't got to any significant treatise on diet yet, it seems like he's leading up to a more nuanced take on nutrition. I'm not interested in his past and his one-time zeal for keto is understandable given his self-revealed history of insulin resistance. Once a person develops that, and hyperinsulinemia along with it, carb restriction (in quantity, frequency, and/or type) is the only known way out of it. Or, at least I've not run across an alternative to that in all of my reading to date. If Attia offers an alternative later in the book aside from pharmaceuticals I'll edit this. I think comparing someone with IR to someone with a perfectly healthy metabolism is a bit of apples to oranges, and the former have a lot less leeway in how to manage weight because the way they process calories is different.

I also think the CICO vs "carbohydrate-insulin" debate is a bit of a red herring in the sense that both can easily be true at the same time. The former is rooted in physics, the latter in chemistry. Physics is physics but human biochemistry can vary significantly person-to-person and for the same person over time. Specifically fructose is a case where "a calorie is a calorie" does not hold true in the environment of human biochemistry, even within carbohydrates as a class of macronutrients, and where a footnote in CICO would be warranted.

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