US Apartment sizes are shrinking

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loutfard
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Re: US Apartment sizes are shrinking

Post by loutfard »

@Slevin, @mathiverse. My previous post in this topic was not helpful and off-topic. I removed it. I now also clearly understand it hurt people's feelings. My apologies.

Colibri
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Re: US Apartment sizes are shrinking

Post by Colibri »

A few years back, I got a job to design a large house addition to an already big enough house for a couple and their toddler. They were not wealthy, counting on a bank loan to finance the addition. They were already in debt to their ears to pay the mortgage.

When I got there and heard them explaining why they needed their addition " We are running out of space here already, the living room is too small, for example" and then you look around and all you see is MASSIVE, low quality sofas in every fucking corners and ugly, big coffee tables. Big, ugly and stupid furniture everywhere in the house. They were not big people themselves.

I never succeded at convincing them to ditch their crap and to look around on how much space they actually had and not build this useless, big and stupid addition. Getting rid of their highly unpractical furniture was beyond what they could envisioned. They didn't change their minds and I ended up designing their addition while grinding my teeth.

I will never understand how people are so blind to this kind of obvious conclusion and value their stuff so much.

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Ego
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Re: US Apartment sizes are shrinking

Post by Ego »

Slevin wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:31 am
@Ego, idk I really feel like I should fit on one too, but I just laid on the one in my other bedroom with my head touching the headboard and my feet hang off, you see?
I don't know. I guess my perspective is skewed by the fact that I grew up in an Irish Catholic neighborhood where some of my friends lived in row homes smaller than @jacob's with 6-8 kids. Multiple siblings sharing twin beds arranged head-to-foot was common.

I can imagine the scene. One of the kids complaining to Mrs. Callahan or Mr. O'Conner that they don't fit in bed by showing that photo. After a few swift smacks to the side of the head and encouragement to go buy himself a new bed along with a new big house to go with it, he would rethink his complaint.

Mrs. O'Conner graduated high school and was known in her younger years as the pretty girl with her nose perpetually in a book, so I suspect she would send one of the other kids to the library to ask the librarian for a copy of The Princess and the Pea for their wayward brother.

Frita
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Re: US Apartment sizes are shrinking

Post by Frita »

@ego
The pullout beds in your building look like a plus to me. Not having to flip it down seems easier than a Murphy bed or pullout couch.

My spouse rented a place of the same vintage pre-us with a cabinet bed that he liked )and he’s 6’4.” He still speaks fondly of it. If I recall correctly, there were other built-ins: ironing board, dining nook, and buffet.

I also grew up in an area where people had large families. There were many post-WWII era ranchs around 800-1000 square feet with two bedrooms and ONE bathroom. Until I just Googled and learned otherwise, I thought a twin was designed for two kids. A bunk room as crowded as a cheap hostel during high-season was unremarkable.

chenda
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Re: US Apartment sizes are shrinking

Post by chenda »

Ego wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:09 am
The Princess and the Pea[/url] for their wayward brother.
It sounds like an odd story, and has nowadays probably invited all sorts of psycho-sexual commentary entirely unintended by it's author.

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Slevin
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Re: US Apartment sizes are shrinking

Post by Slevin »

@louftard Thank you.

@ego and @frita; I agree with the point generally. If I lived in your place with the full sized Murphy bed, I’d use it, because that’s great and space efficient. I’ve slept in a twin / full for many nights, and you can always “make it work” per se, even with two people. IIRC, @theanimal and his wife share (or at least used to share) a twin sized bed? My last townhouse had a bunch of 80 inch high ceilings, which is a similar feeling as a tall person, but was totally fine for a few years.

Just in a world of arbitrarily cheap and available secondhand goods, I’m probably gonna choose the one that has the comfortable height for me to lay on, and the one that allows me to have a potential partner on there, even if I’m single (we all want to dream huh). Maybe this feeling is more of a generational difference, or a difference of upbringing, or honestly maybe I’m just soft in that way. For smaller people, I would expect this would end up buying a full, not a queen, but I do see way more queen beds than full beds around… And if I’m renting, I expect that my choice will eventually lead to awkward space situations like you are showing with your tenants in some cases. I don’t expect the “hmm this could be somewhat problematic in specific future circumstances” consideration would weight in too heavily to that decision if it was fine in my current apartment (some sort of net present comfort value feel).

It might also just be that it isn’t cost efficient for them to pay to store the bed in a storage unit etc and so they use the queen despite the awkwardness because money and added complexity (though going by the other posts you have from the tenants, definitely not the case for everyone).

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Re: US Apartment sizes are shrinking

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Slevin wrote:the one that allows me to have a potential partner on there, even if I’m single
I probably have the highest BMI (and the lowest net worth) of anybody on this forum, but I have no trouble getting quite reasonably attractive XL/XT* men in their 60s down with me on the 75" X 54" X 8" memory foam mattress I have on the floor of my tiny apartment. I paid $149 new for it, because I had to get something I could wrangle up 4 narrow staircases, and it was relatively light-weight and air-compressed. However, I am once again considering the possibility of living/camping in my Smart car this summer, so losing umpteen lbs would probably make that more doable, and, as always, even when camping, I can generally depend on the likelihood that anybody with whom I might share sleeping accommodations will likely have a bigger, better bed/bunk/vehicle than me.

*Women of my generation in my region of the U.S. generally prefer big guys, so it's definitely possible for men to diet themselves out of the dating market. OTOH, it seemed like one of my polys was attending a funeral for one of his college buddys every other month, and I found out it was because he belonged to the football fraternity. It is kind of sad when you get to the age that you have to start worrying that one of your partners might die in the saddle on your not very big floor mattress.

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Ego
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Re: US Apartment sizes are shrinking

Post by Ego »

@Frita, I agree. And somehow people slept.
Slevin wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:27 am
Just in a world of arbitrarily cheap and available secondhand goods, I’m probably gonna choose the one that has the comfortable height for me to lay on, and the one that allows me to have a potential partner on there, even if I’m single (we all want to dream huh).
Sure, it makes sense if you have the room and it does not limit where you can live.

-----

Somewhat related is the current explosion in the belief that there is an epidemic of sleeplessness, a belief that has grown in tandem with the boom in podcasting. A few select experts have been on every podcast, from far-right conspiracy pods to far-left conspiracy pods. Women-focused, middle-age-men-focused and everywhere in between. They all promote the idea that every problem under the sun is a result of a lack of sleep, nobody is sleeping enough and here is what you can do. Buy MyPillow, or an Oura ring, or special sheets, or a temperature regulated mattress, or this proprietary blend of supplements, or this tracking app for your phone... which conveniently sponsor the podcasts.

It makes me think of that famous photo by Weegee of the tenement kids sleeping on the fire escape, curled up like a knot of kittens. That is how virtually every one of my long line of ancestors slept.

If I have a sleepless night I try to get curious about why. If my subconscious mind is racing, it is usually trying to tell my conscious mind something important. Do this. Stop doing that. I can take a melatonin blended sleeping pill to stop it, or I can listen to what it is saying. The more I distract myself from the underlying problem with sleep-trackers, the longer it persists.

Also, sleeping in less than perfect comfort is a skill. If I need absolute silence to sleep, I have now placed a severe limitation on the places where I can live. If I must have a perfectly regulated temperature-mattress to get a good eight hours, I am now dependent on the company that makes the expensive mattress. If, on the other hand, I acclimate myself to sleep wherever, whenever, then I need nothing.

In other words, the problem of sleeplessness in the general population is largely a problem manufactured by companies to sell something.

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Seppia
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Re: US Apartment sizes are shrinking

Post by Seppia »

Agreed in the most part with Ego.
I like to sleep in less than perfect dark because otherwise I’d wake up at the slightest sign of light, and in HK my wife and I (plus the occasional 2yo invader) slept in a 140cm bed.

But

My ideal apartment has a very small room that is essentially all bed.
King beds are awesome, but for some reason I never allow myself anything bigger than 160cm, least I consider myself “soft”

theanimal
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Re: US Apartment sizes are shrinking

Post by theanimal »

Slevin wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:27 am
IIRC, @theanimal and his wife share (or at least used to share) a twin sized bed? My last townhouse had a bunch of 80 inch high ceilings, which is a similar feeling as a tall person, but was totally fine for a few years.
Yes, we did that until just before the arrival of baby animal. We found that a twin is perfectly comfortable size for 2, but not so much for 3. We have since switched to a full size haphazard combination of foam topper, tatami mat and bear skins.
Ego wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:36 pm
Somewhat related is the current explosion in the belief that there is an epidemic of sleeplessness, a belief that has grown in tandem with the boom in podcasting. A few select experts have been on every podcast, from far-right conspiracy pods to far-left conspiracy pods. Women-focused, middle-age-men-focused and everywhere in between. They all promote the idea that every problem under the sun is a result of a lack of sleep, nobody is sleeping enough and here is what you can do. Buy MyPillow, or an Oura ring, or special sheets, or a temperature regulated mattress, or this proprietary blend of supplements, or this tracking app for your phone... which conveniently sponsor the podcasts.
And the kicker with that is that most of the recommendations for things that improve sleep are things that you can't buy. Not eating/drinking close to bed, minimize artificial light at night, consistent sleep/wake times etc. Some of the people on those podcast circuits do have financial ties to those companies, beyond just having the podcasts sponsored. I fell prey to the hype and got an Oura ring a few years ago. I stopped wearing it after a few months after I realized I was paying more attention to what a number said I was supposed to be feeling than how I actually felt. And I'm not convinced it was accurate. Maybe they've gotten better, but I can't imagine that until the invention of things Eight Sleep and all that other stuff you mentioned, everyone was suffering from poor sleep. Sounds like good marketing.

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Seppia
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Re: US Apartment sizes are shrinking

Post by Seppia »

SemiOT: Seppia’s guide to good sleep
1/ don’t drink too much alcohol
2/ have a light dinner
3/ don’t procreate*

*the benefits of procreating outweigh the sleepless nights though

Western Red Cedar
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Re: US Apartment sizes are shrinking

Post by Western Red Cedar »

This reminds me of the recent discussion about means and medians elsewhere on the forum. Talking about average apartment sizes, without at least a mention about the median size, is similar to talking about average 401K balances without revealing the median balances. It has the potential to drastically alter the narrative.

I think it is also worth pointing out that the original research used municipal boundaries, rather than talking about metropolitan regions. That's fine, but the scale and geography presented can also change the narrative. I regularly see other, well-respected researchers speak about urbanism from a metro context to demonstrate things like "there is a strong demand from millennials to live in the suburbs", which then gets picked up by other media outlets and creates a story that is pretty misleading and incomplete at best. These "suburbs" in question may actually be a well-developed city of a few hundred thousand people that border a larger, more-famous city.

In the PNW, Seattle and Portland have been actively encouraging smaller units to provide more diverse housing options at different price points. There have been a number of new projects in the last 5-10 years based on market demand and local policies (zoning reforms, development incentives, tax incentives, etc). I don't think it is really fair to draw conclusions about the PNW based on trends from the two largest cities which may have been influenced by a few, recent large developments. Failing to include any analysis of major cities in the Seattle or Portland metros makes the decrease in square footage look much more dramatic and doesn't paint an accurate picture of the PNW.

I personally see the trend towards smaller units as a positive from many perspectives, and there is movement in that direction, but I just thought the original article presents a pretty simplistic explanation.*
Tyler9000 wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:00 am
Also note that most of the average apartment shrinkage is in the northeast and Pacific Northwest. So people in those areas are being forced into smaller and smaller living spaces partly for shrinkflation reasons and partly because of a possible increase in single person households. Neither of those things are necessarily active choices about housing preferences by the local populations. The cause is something deeper and deserves more reflection.
I'd push back on the idea that people are being forced into smaller living spaces. These are often being developed in the most desirable areas of the cities, and are providing opportunities for more people to live in walkable areas with excellent transit. In Seattle, most of the developments are occurring near high-frequency transit lines or the new light-rail stations. This is a multibillion dollar investment designed to connect the broader region and is critical in the regional strategy to address climate change. There are still loads of options for people to live in larger units or houses in the region, but many people want to live in desirable neighborhoods with easy access to other areas without a car. Those kind of amenities may require a slightly smaller unit. With good design, that doesn't need to equate to a sacrifice. There are countless cities in Europe and Asia that demonstrate this.

When government investments billions into local infrastructure, it naturally increases the value of the land. Increased land values lead to increased housing costs. Building smaller units represent one way to allow more people to live in these communities and provide more opportunities for housing options, which people like the OP seem to want.

In regards to deeper, or other causes, one might just look at the built and natural environment for an explanation. In the NE and PNW, there are typically barriers to outward expansion due to existing development or the physical environment. If you can't build out, you've got to build up.

*apologies for the rant, but this kind of research and the ensuing articles tend to annoy me a bit in their simplicity.

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Re: US Apartment sizes are shrinking

Post by ffj »

When I was a child my mother would insist ( that's a nice way of saying she wouldn't hesitate to enforce her stance) all of us make our beds every morning once we got up. Since I hated this, I would sleep on the floor with nothing more than a blanket and a pillow, and I felt great each morning especially looking at the pristine bed that never had to be remade.

In my teens and twenties, I could literally sleep on a rock with no issue. I once slept on top of a picnic table to get off the wet ground after a hike with friends turned into an overnighter somehow. Sleeping in a car? No big deal. Just ease that seat back. Back of a truck? Luxury.

The thought of doing any of that now pains me. As I am getting older I am getting much more sensitive to disruptions in my sleep. And it's irritating but a definite reality. Hence I have comfortable beds in my home. When I go to bed for sleep it feels wonderful as everything feels good, from the large mattress to the sheets, to the comforter. And my pillow fits my head just right. I can sprawl, ball up tight, or turn any which way I want throughout the night. Going to bed is a treat. I also have ceiling fans directly over the beds that blow refreshing air over you as you sleep. Heaven, especially in the summer.

I also designed my bedrooms throughout our new house to be large, as well as the bathrooms. I grew up with tiny bathrooms and tiny bedrooms that could barely fit a toilet and tub or a small bed. Where you were forced into contortions just trying to navigate such a small space. No more. Some may view this as wasteful but I view it as calming and something that makes me feel good, visually and performance wise. My Master Bathroom is such a relaxing place to do your business because it is designed for maximum privacy and security. There have been so many bathrooms in my past living arrangements that have been horrible with lack of privacy and poor placement. Remember that Potpourri commercial when the lady has to poo at Thanksgiving and the bathroom is right next to the dining table? That's what I'm talking about. Haha.

I think there is a balance to be had here.

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Ego
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Re: US Apartment sizes are shrinking

Post by Ego »

ffj wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:15 am
In my teens and twenties, I could literally sleep on a rock with no issue. I once slept on top of a picnic table to get off the wet ground after a hike with friends turned into an overnighter somehow. Sleeping in a car? No big deal. Just ease that seat back. Back of a truck? Luxury.

The thought of doing any of that now pains me. As I am getting older I am getting much more sensitive to disruptions in my sleep. And it's irritating but a definite reality.
If your fairy godmother came along and offered to restore your ability to sleep like twenty-year-old you, would you want it?

We have a Starbucks at the corner and a stream of tenants walking to Starbucks for their morning coffee. They must have Starbucks. Anything else will not do. What if it were possible for them to be just as happy with the cheapest instant coffee or no coffee at all?

ffj
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Re: US Apartment sizes are shrinking

Post by ffj »

@Ego

I've definitely become more particular as I've aged. I once viewed everything as a challenge to overcome so while I understand your point I also realize that my time on this earth is limited. And that it is ok to enjoy some luxuries. Not everything has to be a hustle.

As humans we can adapt to just about anything. More than likely your tenants are wasting hard earned money on overpriced coffee, but they could also be using that one luxury purchase to jump-start other endeavors that more than pay for that $5 investment. So the question becomes whether it is worth it to adapt on any particular subject or focus limited energy on other issues in your life.

I could learn to find a rock comfortable again or I could use my wealth to make a very important part of my life enjoyable. I don't know that one has more merit than the other but I have a choice because I have wealth, and I have wealth because everything once used to be a hustle. And that past self would have viewed the cost of that expensive mattress and curled up on the floor but at what point do we get to enjoy our wealth? What is the end game?

Do you cycle with a Huffy bicycle from Walmart? Probably not but I bet your 12 yo self loved that bike. This is a comparison, not a poke.

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Re: US Apartment sizes are shrinking

Post by theanimal »

I don't want to speak for @Ego, but I think his point wasn't that you should necessarily challenge yourself physically or even challenge at all, but rather to question the assumptions that such items are necessary and of our own desire (ie not influenced or manipulated by others, whether by individuals, businesses or society at large) in efforts to attain personal contentment. When you were able to sleep soundly without issue on a rock or a picnic table, did you consider it a sacrifice that you had to sleep on such surfaces and thought it'd be better if you slept on what you have now?

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Ego
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Re: US Apartment sizes are shrinking

Post by Ego »

ffj wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:17 pm
I've definitely become more particular as I've aged. I once viewed everything as a challenge to overcome so while I understand your point I also realize that my time on this earth is limited. And that it is ok to enjoy some luxuries. Not everything has to be a hustle.
I understand and largely agree with your points, but I believe we are talking about different things.

Being able to enjoy a something vs losing the ability to enjoy life without it. Enjoyment is one side of the coin. Dependence is the other.

ffj
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Re: US Apartment sizes are shrinking

Post by ffj »

@the animal

I'm pretty sure I understand the point. I'm not advocating for extravagance here, just get a mattress that fits your body for goodness sake. And realize your body isn't going to be as malleable as you age. Your body is going to change.

So to answer your question no of course not I didn't feel it was a sacrifice, but I also didn't wake up not being able to move my neck because I had a cramp, haha. You shouldn't sacrifice items in your life that are going to make your life better whether the tv told you to buy it or not. This is really my only point, and the whole topic reminded me of a past thread about the merits of using soap. Yes, you should wash with soap even though you could save $5/year foregoing it. It's a little absurd right?

O.K., all this commentary is light-hearted on my end so take it as humor. I was thinking about this last night as I curled into my incredibly comfortable bed smug in my belief I was right about this completely. :D

ffj
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Re: US Apartment sizes are shrinking

Post by ffj »

@Ego

I get it. But I guess it comes down to where you would draw the line. And every person is going to be different where their line in the sand is going to exist. We are all dependent on something.

I also think it is somewhat akin to having an attitude of gratitude for what does exist in your life that is positive. The fact that I woke up this morning, have a functioning body, a functioning brain that allows me to respond to you. I can hear, I can see, I can understand nuance, I think. Ha! Had a delicious cup of coffee that I made myself. And on and on. When some of these things are taken away, even for a brief period of time, it resonates.

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Re: US Apartment sizes are shrinking

Post by Solvent »

Seppia wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:48 am
In Italy it isn't common at all to have in-wall storage, while in Paris for example it's fairly common (in older buildings)
Sorry, wanted to tug on this thread a bit more even though it's buried.

I've lived in places with both approaches - in Aus, older places tend to rely on furniture (freestanding cabinets) for storage while newer places have the in-wall stuff. In Europe I saw mostly freestanding furniture. In SE Asia, the larger apartments have wonderful built-in storage on multiple walls.

Isn't storage built into the walls far more space efficient and convenient? On the face of it, I was surprised that people would think otherwise, but I guess, on reflection, if you don't need the storage then yes it is totally wasted space.

Presuming you would use the space, though, it's far better - you get floor to ceiling storage (not common with a stand-alone cabinet) and freestanding furniture juts out at odd angles and collects dust, requires more cleaning. But yeah, I guess if you live lean enough that you don't own enough stuff to use cupboards well then it's wasted floorspace.

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