How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

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Western Red Cedar
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How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by Western Red Cedar »

A recent interview caused me to reflect on how much I value remote work and my flexible schedule. If I got the job, I would likely need to be in the office or the field at least three days per week. In this case, the field would include some beautiful natural locations that I love and visit in my spare time - so not all bad. This would include a 25-30 minute car commute (no public transit available) or a 1 hour bicycle commute each way. Field visits would often include additional driving in a company vehicle as part of the job.

I realized that the potential pay increase of 10-12k per year (12-15% raise) might not be worth it to give up my 100% WFH position. Our household is a about 75% towards the FI target, and I've already reached my personal FI goal to cover my share of household expenses. The fact that I'm fairly close to the finish line is probably influencing my thinking. Both my current position and the potential job fit within my web of goals and focus on meaningful work.

How much of a raise would it take for you to go back to the office? Conversely, how much money would you give up to work remotely 100% and go in as needed to meet with colleagues or clients?

Does your current household NW and progress toward FI influence your answer?

Considering pay scales vary here, I'd be interested in both a dollar figure and a %.

Hristo Botev
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by Hristo Botev »

Great question; and sounds like you've got one of those "good" problems to have to find an answer to.

Personally, I've gone from the BigLaw 50-65/hr in the office job with about an hour/day spent commuting (though it was a bike commute, which I kind of miss), to a voluntary pay cut for a little less time in the office within walking distance with SmallLaw, until I'd built up enough leverage to make the move across state lines back home to do the same SmallLaw job from my Airstream parked in the backyard.

There is a lot to say for working in an office; I kind of miss it--I like my colleagues, I like the watercooler conversations and the occasional beer to celebrate a job well done, and all that kind of stuff. I could see going back to an office at some point, though it would be totally on my own terms--like building up enough of a practice locally that it makes sense to move into some brick-and-mortar office space down the road from my house, or throwing my hat in the ring for a judgeship.

Lately I'm getting multiple a calls a day from headhunters which I do everything I can to ignore, because I know there is no way that any of those potential employers could provide me with a situation that is anywhere close to the situation I have now. And it really doesn't matter how much money they might throw at me.

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Lemur
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by Lemur »

Remote is pretty much everything to me. I used to commute to the DMV 5x a week. This was a round-trip anywhere from 3-4 hours per day depending on traffic. Pandemic hit of course and I worked from home daily. After some adjustments, I don't think I can actually go back.

My office has a 1x a week per minimum requirements from my job but a few of my colleagues and I were given exemptions recently because we're "high-needs" skillsets. In other words, I work for the government and they don't want to lose us to the private sector so in exchange for lower pay, we get better quality of life stipulations. My accumulative leave is insane right now too. Its great.

Its the first time in my FIRE/ERE journey that I've ever felt not in a rush to call it quits. I've it too good.

I'm very high on the introvert scale...I don't need to see people. I always say here this may be insensitive, but the pandemic was the best thing that ever happened to my lifestyle design.

Hristo Botev
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by Hristo Botev »

Lemur wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:44 pm
Its the first time in my FIRE/ERE journey that I've ever felt not in a rush to call it quits. I've it too good.
I was about to ETA my own post to note that I don't really have any plans to quit working regardless of FI, though that was not the case back in my BigLaw days--where I had the "flexibility" to work however and whenever I wanted, though when you're expected to bill 2K hours/year in reality that means you need to be in the office all the time. Probably says something about the change in mindset that comes with figuring out a workable work from home situation.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

Going back to the office for me would be less about the pay and more about the following factors:

1. Less meetings that are a waste of my time
2. More coworkers I enjoy being with
3. Flexibility so I don't have to sit in the chair when I've finished my work and have nothing else to do
4. Short commute

If I had those four things, I would rather work in an office than at home because I find the change in scenery/easy access to colleagues does help my morale/productivity to a degree. However, given those four things are rarer to find than money, I would way rather work from home because there is a huge quality of life increase over having WAY more autonomy over my schedule.

I personally wouldn't go back for $10k-$12k more because after taxes and commuting costs and increased time in chair, that might actually be a pay cut per hour. I myself have reached the point of diminishing returns for money and care more about quality of life. So if the office is more quality of life, I'd go back, but if it isn't, I'd rather work from home.

I also agree that working from home made work a lot more tolerable for me because it started only eating up a WAY smaller portion of my life and now I have the time/energy to do things I was waiting for FIRE to do.

Hristo Botev
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by Hristo Botev »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:57 pm
I also agree that working from home made work a lot more tolerable for me because it started only eating up a WAY smaller portion of my life and now I have the time/energy to do things I was waiting for FIRE to do.
It's difficult to put a price tag on the situation unique to the WFH scenario where you can dedicate an hour or 90 minutes to a work task and then, when that is completed, and before you move on to the next work task, you go knock out a workout in the home gym or check in on the roast you've got on the stove or hang the laundry to dry or fix your kid's bike or take the dog for a walk or play catch with one of your kids or clean out the gutters or any number of other things that you would otherwise try and fail to squeeze in to a "weekend warrior" scenario; leaving you bitter every time you got a work email on a Saturday because "this is MY TIME damnit!!".

frommi
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by frommi »

I already crossed the finish line so my opinion maybe shouldn't that much of a weight, but i would not go back to the office for any amount of money. If my company would order that, i am out, at least thats what i am saying to myself. But i also just work 3-4 hours/day now. If you are already at 75% of your goal, i also wouldn't change the employer because that comes with new risks and the compounding of your stash will already do the heavy lifting anyway. And if your current job is fullfilling and you like the people you work with, these are further arguments to stay.

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Slevin
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by Slevin »

In software? I would never go back to an office at this point, except maybe for $1M/year or something where i can just do it for one year then retire. All big companies are now distributed across state and international boundaries, so it isn't like you get a huge benefit of "seeing everyone you work with daily" from going back to the office, video chat is the best you will get. And so there can only be a commute (net negative) for a net negative benefit of actually being at the office for most employees (except the ones who can't cook i.e. depend on the free lunches and the ones who are extroverted and want the companionship, but since nobody goes into the offices anyways, engineers tend to be introverted and prefer wfh, its just generally a net negative to everyone). Plus the premium of being able to do chores, not be interrupted by stupid nonsense, and be weird during the workday is >> any pay difference when you already make enough to meet the basics and more.

In a different industry like woodworking or something hands on where I'm working with other people towards a goal where we need to interact to physically build a specific thing, I would do a short commute for sure.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by mountainFrugal »

Reiterating what has already been expressed. It would take ALOT of money. Not 10-12K. Minus all the commute, preparing to go, decompressing when you get home, plus the guarantee that you are going to be spending time in a car to travel to those other locations as well.

Best case: 3 days * 4 weeks ~ 12 days of ~1 hour plus of your time JUST commuting. 12 hours a month * 12 months = 144 hours. 2 years of that and you could be apprentice level at something you are just starting out in. Or what if you spent that time each month getting better at a skill that could net $10-12K a year? Or you spent that time seriously marketing a consulting side hustle that would surely net more than 10-12K? My guess is that spending that time to broaden your skill set is going to net way more over your lifetime. :).

7Wannabe5
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Well, there's a reason why the average American kid is currently a couple years behind in math education. It's much easier to tutor basic math skills in the same room as the students with a variety of tools and manipulatives at hand. I do tutor a couple higher level high school kids virtually, but it would be a disaster with the younger students who need more help. I enjoy teaching in person at 1 to 3 max adult to student ratio which doesn't require high level classroom management skills.

Also, I am currently living by myself for the first time in my life, and I'm an ambivert E/I, so good for me to get out of the house and be around other humans for around 20 hours/week.

OTOH, pretty much the only reason why I continue to pursue an M.S. in Data Analytics is that I might need a fully remote job with very good medical insurance if I become very ill with Crohn's disease again.

theanimal
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by theanimal »

I enjoy work from home for many of the reasons previously mentioned. I do think there are some negatives though, mainly in limiting serendipity, both socially and future projects/opportunities. Until my current job, all my other jobs were more of the non traditional variety and almost all of my current friend group originates from this. They have also led to other interesting opportunities, both work wise and personally that I would not have come across or taken advantage of if instead I was working at home. I have continued to work from home in my current gig because until recently I hadn't found any opportunities that I found attractive enough to change my current situation. That has changed and it is not a monetary change.

If money is a solved problem, I think that is the wrong lens to look when evaluating if it is more advantageous or not. At least for me, money isn't going to motivate anywhere close to as much as interesting problems or opportunities might

For example, I would be eager to go into a place to work where I could learn new skills, such as working as a bike mechanic or a recent job I saw as lead designer at a van conversion company. The bike mechanic doesn't pay much more than minimum wage and the van conversion would be about the median. I make significantly more than both of those working from home now and would not go into the office at my current job. If I found the job more engaging, maybe that would change, but I don't think more money would do it.

Are the field days year round? Can you do both (ie work from home and still do the field days)?

suomalainen
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by suomalainen »

Western Red Cedar wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 1:16 pm
The fact that I'm fairly close to the finish line is probably influencing my thinking. Both my current position and the potential job fit within my web of goals and focus on meaningful work.
Money is only one factor in measuring "worth". It ultimately boils down to what kind of life do you want, and does this position or that position fit your vision better, knowing that you are simultaneously asking both a short-term as well as a long-term question. Perhaps one position is ok for now, but will grow stale over time while another position would be [good / bad / indifferent] for now but also position you better for your next chapter. It's choose-your-own-adventure, with choices made all along the way. Good luck.

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Seppia
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by Seppia »

I am with the animal

To me, 100% remote would be a negative. I’m convinced pre pandemic people were overvaluing office presence, now they are undervaluing it.

So basically OP your mileage may vary. Do what you feel is best for you. I have found (empirically) that “trust your gut” is usually terrible advice for “gut” people, but works great for those (like I suspect the majority of the forum) who are chronical overthinkers.

macg
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by macg »

I've been working from home since 2007 (various IT jobs). I honestly think there's nothing that would get me back to working in an office at this point.

I had a perfect storm (of my age + friends I worked with + management + after hours social activities with the co-workers) in the last 5ish years I worked in an office, the type of thing that just wouldn't happen now... So the few benefits of working in an office wouldn't exist, and the hundreds of benefits of working remotely are always there.

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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by jacob »

I asked DW and the answer was about 20% mainly citing the commute. This is below the extra 30% of daily time that the commute would add, so I think she actually enjoys work. She's often reaches a flow state that way (for hours each day) basically juggling entries between spreadsheets guided by an endless stream of very clear goals to be checked off. (Very similar to the games she enjoys playing.)

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Ego
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by Ego »

theanimal wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:47 pm
I do think there are some negatives though, mainly in limiting serendipity, both socially and future projects/opportunities.
The responses here are a good indication of the problem with remote work. Once you wfh for a while it becomes nearly impossible to go back. The pay differential previous wfh people require to get them back into the office is massive. Some will not do it for any amount.

Speaking for myself, the prospect of having to be in an office all day is a non-starter and that fact bothers me. I am embarrassed to admit that one of the reasons I stopped teaching is because I just didn't like the fact that I HAD to be there at a particular time, ready to teach.

I see this as a weakness on my part. Or maybe a maladaptation where I have increased a baseline need. I want to be the kind of person who could happily adapt to new circumstances.

Also, we just did apartment inspections. Here in my Petri dish, wfh is highly correlated with appearing perfectly normal to the outside world but behind the scenes being batshit crazy.

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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by jacob »

Ego wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:39 am
Speaking for myself, the prospect of having to be in an office all day is a non-starter and that fact bothers me a bit. I am embarrassed to admit that one of the reasons I stopped teaching is because I just didn't like the fact that I HAD to be there at a particular time, ready to teach.
The schooling system was designed in part to get humans used to showing up every day at a given time and place doing specific work. Before humans were habituated thusly, workers would only show up when/if they needed money (and leave again when they earned enough). With such unreliable cogs serving as labor it made no sense to invest in very expensive machines. Something had to be done. The answer was to socially engineer people's behavior starting at a young age through "education".

rube
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by rube »

I quit almost 10 months ago, but before that I have been working fully or partly from home since 2005.
A few months ago I was discussing a potential new position which would be hybrid again, with a lot of traveling. I would have been okay to be in the office for that position as it would be largely for the fun/social part. But I would have accepted only to be partly (hybrid), flexible hours etc. to be in an office. I would have a very hard time to be required to be 5 days a week from 9-5 (or so) at a working place again, unless it would be like a fun project for a couple of weeks or months.
Ego wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:39 am
Also, we just did apartment inspections. Here in my Petri dish, wfh is highly correlated with appearing perfectly normal to the outside world but behind the scenes being batshit crazy.
I am curious :roll: , care to elaborate?
Last edited by rube on Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Hristo Botev
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by Hristo Botev »

jacob wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:47 am
The schooling system was designed in part to get humans used to showing up every day at a given time and place doing specific work. Before humans were habituated thusly, workers would only show up when/if they needed money (and leave again when they earned enough). With such unreliable cogs serving as labor it made no sense to invest in very expensive machines. Something had to be done. The answer was to socially engineer people's behavior starting at a young age through "education".
My own kids--both of whom are now back in public school after time away in parochial schools (which aren't much different than public schools these days) and homeschooling--grow weary of me harping on such stuff: https://www.amazon.com/Underground-Hist ... ylor+Gatto. But it really is an interesting topic. My hope is that through my harping my own kids see behind the curtain a bit to realize what is going on, what they can gain from it, and how to achieve those gains in a manner that doesn't deteriorate there own humanity. There's a lot of talk at our dinner table about "being the gray man" in the public school environment, and about learning how to play the public school "game" (as in, whether or not you "learn" the material isn't really a goal of the school or the teacher, and isn't really what the school was designed to do--you can learn it on your own--what the kids should focus on is how to get the A in order to "win" the sorting process that our school system is designed to provide).

On a different note, within my own industry I worry about how we will train the next generation of lawyers in an environment where WFH is more common, even if that WFH is part of a hybrid model (like my own firm uses for some of the other lawyers) where time is split b/w home and the office. I recognize that there is something a bit parasitic about my own scenario currently: I was trained in a judge's chambers and in the BigLaw office situation where literally everyone was sitting at their desks on the same floor or separated by an internal stairwell 40+ hours/week. Everyone was accessible all the time, in person. Currently, sometimes days go by where I'm trying to get someone on the phone or vice versa, as everyone is buried in their own project silos. But I don't know how to recreate that training scenario for younger lawyers I work with in a virtual setting, and practically speaking that means I just tend to not delegate as much. And the problem with that is while that works OK for me from a business perspective, it limits growth because professional services practices are only scalable through delegation of work.

This is what I meant when I said upstream that I'd be willing to return to an office environment so long as it was on my own terms; which would pretty much mean that it made sense from a LONG-TERM entrepreneurial business and professional perspective, as opposed to a salary man exchange of more money for my time and freedom perspective. Assuming the status quo stands, I can't think of a scenario that would have me return to the office as a strictly salaryman.

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Ego
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by Ego »

rube wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:00 am
I am curious :roll: , care to elaborate?
It is probably best that I don't, other than to say that you would not believe the things I've seen. I think people started looking at their places through the eyes of another person, something that hadn't happened in a while, and panic ensued.
jacob wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:47 am
The schooling system was designed in part to get humans used to showing up every day at a given time and place doing specific work.
Understood. I agree. I guess I don't want to use my 'freedom-from' in such a way that it causes me to lose my 'ability-to' for a skill I may need in a pinch, even if the thing is not overall desirable in the long term.

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