7Wannabe5-Take9-One Ordinary Day, With Peanuts

[grundomatic]

...so I've often wondered why I am fairly "good" at being frugal and fairly "bad" at dieting...

Ditto. I manage to save money regardless of what my friends, family, and colleagues are doing. When the tray of cookies comes out, however, I devour them like there is no tomorrow.

[7Wannabe5]

@grundomatic:

Yup! It's also one of the few realms in which I am mildly deceitful. Like when I leave the last 3 cookies kind of spead out in the container in weak attempt to hide the fact that I ate the rest. So, I think part of my Intuitive Eating therapy will be to start to very straight-forwardly communicate along the lines of, "Yes, I ate all the cookies." hopefully without going to "Whatcha gonna do about it?" One thing I instantly gained from reading this book is the realization that I have tolerated far too much disrespect from some of my partners in this realm. OTOH, my own internalized mean voice has also sometimes resulted in my not giving some other partners due credit for appreciating me as I am. Like, I was all "Blech, I'm still kind of sick, and I am too fat to be sexy.", but then I read this book, and I was like "Girl, you have 3 or 4 quite reasonably attractive men who keep texting you in the hope that you are going to feel well enough to come out and play again, exactly what is your mental health problem?!?!"

[jacob]

As I mentioned above, this is a tempting analogy which I have often considered myself, but it breaks down pretty easily, or can become dismaying in many different ways.

Dismaying being the keyword; leading to all kinds of post-rationalizations. Metaphorically, all those costs (suffering) borne is the analog to interest payments. Not just paying back past indulgence to get back to the neutral line or but also paying extra due to being in a worse position. Analogously people can become trapped by a load that is so deep/heavy that it is impossible to work out of because all the effort goes toward "interest" payments and none towards reducing those payments. In short, those who take it slow and easy will never get to the point where their efforts make an actual difference.

[UrbanHomesteader]

Thanks for the insightful posts 7w5! I have often been irked by the analogy between managing personal finance and weight, because the analogy grossly oversimplifies the biological forces at play that allow some of us to store notable amounts of body fat. F.I.R.E. Math works, dieting doesn’t, and there are major forces at play in both ways.

I’ve been tracking my food to confirm that I am gettIng the recommended nutrition, but f*ck living in a calorie deficit. I need the energy to live well and build my physical capacity.

[7Wannabe5]

@jacob:

True, but it's still only 1 metric or quality out of innumerable possibilities. For instance, around 76% of the men my age have high blood pressure, and I don't. Similar applies to my lipids and blood sugar metrics. My doctor literally said "Wow, you must be doing something right!" to me. And in terms of Erotic Capital, there are certainly some who are in great shape physically, who are 50 leagues under and sinking when it come to other things that are harder to put a number on like Charm.

[7Wannabe5]

I’ve been tracking my food to confirm that I am gettIng the recommended nutrition, but f*ck living in a calorie deficit. I need the energy to live well and build my physical capacity.

Amen.

[Henry]

Like, I was all "Blech, I'm still kind of sick, and I am too fat to be sexy.", but then I read this book, and I was like "Girl, you have 3 or 4 quite reasonably attractive men who keep texting you in the hope that you are going to feel well enough to come out and play again, exactly what is your mental health problem?!?!"

There will always be chubby chasers. And I'm not saying its going in that direction but I don't recall any Ruben paintings where the woman had breathing tubes up her nostrils and one hand toggling on her electric chair.

[7Wannabe5]

woman had breathing tubes up her nostrils and one hand toggling on her electric chair.

I think you are confusing me with my peers who started smoking Virginia Slims at age 16 to help keep the weight off.

There will always be chubby chasers.

Yup, and as you noted, in my dating age range, my only competition will increasingly be quite flat butted.

[Henry]

I'm just saying the sex appeal concern is exaggerated. There's an army of guys out there who considered you out of their league throughout the previous decades. Now they can get you on the back end (pun intended).

[7Wannabe5]

There's an army of guys out there who considered you out of their league throughout the previous decades.

Highly unlikely

However, as somebody who has successfully dated in more or less voluptuous mode, there was something about the very strong anti-fat argument that Catherine Hakim was making in "Erotic Capital" that struck me with a hard True-yet-also-Untrue response based on my own experience. So, I searched the book and she used the words "overweight" or "obese" over 60 times, and she only used the word "breasts" three times*, one of which was in reference to breast-feeding. IOW, although she is using the word "erotic" to describe the form of capital she is conceptualizing, she is still making the common female error of confusing what is being sold in Vogue magazine with what is being sold in pornography. I think this is because she also confounds the "anti-sex" branch of feminism, perhaps best represented by Andrew Dworkin, with the anti-fat-shaming or all-bodies-positivity movement, and holds them both responsible for not allowing women to take advantage of the average sexual desire discrepancy between men and women towards their personal benefit/profit/power.

I agree with Hakim's take that women should take self-aware ownership of their own erotic capital, but I disagree with her take that striving to be a super-model is, therefore, the way to go. I researched the matter a bit myself and discovered a study that concluded that the primary factor reducing sexual frequency in post-menopausal women, regardless of relationship status, is their own negative take on post-menopausal weight gain. Generally, it is the case that because women have already internalized the beauty ideal, and they no longer have to rely on a man for financial support in our society, they are tending towards taking themselves off the market, or not making themselves available for sex within established relationship, if/when they are not feeling like they meet this ideal. And, it is also the case that this tendency is exacerbating the sexual desire/fulfillment discrepancy between the sexes.

I recently spent an evening in the company of a number of other middle-aged women and the conversation turned to men and sex. I started bitching about my sex life being in the dumps, because I was feeling icky with Crohn's disease symptoms and also too fat and having more difficulty losing weight due to various stressors and my age, and I noted that I hadn't had sex in 10 months, which was likely my longest dry spell in over 40 years, and every woman in the room laughed at me for thinking that 10 months was a long sexual dry spell, and tacitly (although also very supportively) agreed that not feeling super-attractive was a good reason to not be having sex. I don't think that would happen in a similar group of men.

* I also searched a Regency Romance novel for number of mentions of "breast" and the total was 26. I would search a random porn transcript, but too many synonyms for "breast" might be used.

Hakim in "Erotic Capital":

In the Western world, men reputedly divide into those who most value breasts, buttocks, or legs, but in most other cultures it is the overall appearance that matters.

Beverly in "Dangerous Love":

He couldn't help but be aware that she didn't favor strong corsets. In the evenings, when she leaned forward to move a chess piece, her decently covered breasts swayed slightly, begging to be touched. Memories immediately arose of those breasts only half-concealed by threadbare linen, of the weight and warm softness of them in his hands.

[chenda]

@7w5 - as a case in point:

Women underwent 93% of all cosmetic procedures recorded in 2022, a rise of 101% from 2021. The five most popular procedures for women were breast augmentation (up 66%), breast reduction (up 120%), abdominoplasty, also known as the tummy tuck (up 130%), liposuction (up 134%) and blepharoplasty, eyelid surgery (up 70%)...“The 2022 BAAPS audit shows that demand for cosmetic surgery has more than bounced back post pandemic. Economic uncertainty and a decrease in overall consumer spending does not seem to the deterring patients from having cosmetic surgery. People are choosing to spend on treatments with a proven track-record of safety and which deliver reliable, long-lasting, and natural results.”

https://baaps.org.uk/about/news/1872/co ... gery_boom/

I am actually considering some breast enhancement surgery this year and I went to see a surgeon for an initial consultation. After some measuring he stepped back and gave them both a thoughtful look, the same look a builder might give when pondering how best to shore up a subsiding wall. The upshot was they can probably do something under a local anaesthetic, but it is very expensive with a long recovery period. Although its something of a long term investment which might pay dividends years down the line, in terms of slowing down the sink rate especially post-menopause.

[7Wannabe5]

After some measuring he stepped back and gave them both a thoughtful look, the same look a builder might give when pondering how best to shore up a subsiding wall.

I had my mini-face lift with just a local, and my very nice surgeon gave me a sort of warm, squishy, plastic heart-shaped toy to hold on to during the procedure. He also had me do an affirmation with him before the surgery. Upside of my post-menopausal weight gain is that my breasts are firmer as well as larger. On my list of 27 things I can do towards self-care besides myopically focusing on weight loss, I added "Buy some decent new bras that fit."

Although its something of a long term investment which might pay dividends years down the line

One of the reviewers of "Erotic Capital" argued that it differs from other capitals, because its value declines when you attempt to straight-forwardly trade in it. So you (or I or any other woman) couldn't, for example, bring up investment in breast enhancement surgery when negotiating sexual relationship without simultaneously cutting the value of the asset, because it would be immodest, crass, forward, or simply not very romantic. I think this is only partially true. because IME most men are okay with fairly literal communication, although it is worth questioning who benefits most from keeping such negotiations in a haze.

I am about halfway through a new memoir of polyamory ("More: Memoir of Open Marriage")and at one point the author's therapist suggests that she's seeking validation for being sexually attractive and sexually pleasing more than she is making an effort to consider and seek that which would provide her with more sexual desire and pleasure. This is towards what I was trying to express on the dating thread when I posted the Regency Romance cover. I think it's less the case that straight-foward trade tends towards devaluing erotic capital for women, and more the case that women devalue their own erotic capital by too often trading it for validation. IOW, they behave as though the only value of having lovely breasts is that they provide the opportunity to hear a man say "You have lovely breasts." The topic of dominance also came up in my recent sex talk with peers, and one of the women said that she didn't think that women liked dominant behavior in men so much, but it was just the case that dominant behavior overlaps with behavior that signals a high level of desire. I agree that this is somewhat true, but it once again reinforces the notion that what women want from sex is sexual validation. I suppose I could test the hypothesis by paying a man to throw me up on a counter-top, and observe whether I am still turned on absent assumption that behavior is based on my level of desirability.

Anyways, my point here being that if you want to get top value for your breast investment, the least trade transaction costs would apply in the sexual market itself, so getting very clear on what assets and behaviors you desire on that market would be advised.

[jacob]

True, but it's still only 1 metric or quality out of innumerable possibilities. For instance, around 76% of the men my age have high blood pressure, and I don't. Similar applies to my lipids and blood sugar metrics. My doctor literally said "Wow, you must be doing something right!" to me. And in terms of Erotic Capital, there are certainly some who are in great shape physically, who are 50 leagues under and sinking when it come to other things that are harder to put a number on like Charm.

Right, I think all these concerns and consequent strategies (and emergent disagreements) relate back to your list of 200 values. For a given person, some values are "need to have" but others are simply "nice to have". For the former, people will do what it takes. For the latter, people will often "negotiate" or rationalize why the cost is too high, frequently listing the cost in other values. Perhaps projecting. Perhaps trying to convince others about the best values.

Often but not always such negotiation argues explicitly against objective reality. For example, if "simple and easy" is also a value (whether for oneself or for the culture in an argument), then constructing "complications" is an easy way lift the perceived cost of a "nice to have" value. For example, I myself recognize that social capital is [a] good. Yet my charisma is pretty low. Why is that? I could argue that being sociable is "too complicated" but it really boils down to the fact that "being charming" (as a value) requires effort and that I'm just not sufficiently interested in people to put in that effort. Charisma is a mere "nice to have" for me.

To contrast and compare: When it comes to "weight" (as a value), you've mentioned "health" (as a value) and "sex" (as a value) on your personal list, but I don't recall you ever mentioning values like "agility", "endurance", or "strength/weight" (as a value). My point here is not whether that's wrong but rather that these are not even "nice to haves" but "not on the radar" on your list. I think you've even talked about the last one as an anti-value---the ability to do a pull-up. Fair enough. Whereas, those particular agility/endurance/power-efficiency values are "need to haves" on my personal list. This results in both a different strategy and a different way of arguing the point. If my "need to have" values exceed my tolerance levels to the downside, I'll do what it takes to bring them back within acceptable (to me for me) levels including starving myself (because "avoiding feeling hungry" is not a value of mine). Conversely, "health" for me is more of a "nice to have" than a "need to have" insofar it doesn't impact on functionality. For me, "erotic capital" falls under "not even on the radar". I've never specifically targeted front-facing muscles (biceps, pecs, abs) in order to make myself more attractive. I do recognize the positive side-effects of the functional requirement on the "health" and "sex" values. Not perfect, but at least in the right direction, but I value those as freebies rather than something I'd pay for. Should the cultural body-shape fashion change, perhaps towards chubby, I'm not going to follow it. I also don't have any values on my radar that affects my "need to have" values negatively, such as "enjoying cookies"(*), "not feeling hungry", or "not feeling cold from not eating". This makes it easy and simple for me to avoid asserting that it's not that easy or simple. It just is what it is.

Which leads me to the next point ... or next problem: What if one's values don't reflect the values of the culture or at least that of enough other people? That's where debate obtains... trying to bring other humans around to one's personal value vector. Elevating some values, depressing other values.

I'd be remiss if I didn't note that I think that one's personal values are heavily influenced by one's personal neurochemistry. IOW, some values come easier to some [phenotypes] than others.

(*) Unusual as it may sound I actually treat desserts to be a kind of garbage food. I'd rather eat more of the main course than leave room for dessert. This is a prime value, not a secondary. I'd prefer an olive or a chili pepper over cake.

[J_]

@7w5 thanks for your elaborate and clear (for me) way of telling your life as it is now. I wish you strength to live with and perhaps overcome crohn's.
@ Jacob a very helpful distinction about values : need to have, nice to have and not on my radar!
The last one, I realise, is often neglected by me.

[7Wannabe5]

@jacob:

Great post! I think we are approximately on the same page. I currently find myself rising towards Level Turquoise and then sinking back down to Level Orange on this topic. Your discussion of weight as it relates to your specific values vs. mine helped me do some more sort of stream-of-consciousness reflection towards Turquoise resulting in decision that I am going to make developing my own personal tendencies/take on Transcendent Sex one of my foci for the year. This is very much in alignment with also coming out as Eco-sexual, because for me Transcendent Sex is an experience found somewhere on the spectrum between ingesting psycho-active mushrooms and suddenly finding yourself in a beautiful clearing on a hike in the woods.

Your expression of your values that may be related to weight loss or maintenance also reminded my of discussions I've had with my INFP sister and how her strong sense of aesthetics and personal style is related to weight loss and maintenance. So, starting with cue from Henry, I looked at some of the art of Rubens in order to consider whether being Rubenesque was in alignment with my own personal aesthetic. Then I remembered an experience I once had when I was wandering through a museum and happened upon a sculpture that reminded me of myself.

http://emuseum.toledomuseum.org/objects/54955

So, then I browsed through some more works by Renoir in search of similar model:

https://philamuseum.org/collection/object/59196

You mentioned that my take on the value of "strength" seems to be anti, because of comments I've made related to pull-ups and similar exercises. I actually do value "strength" in the sense it is displayed in the Renoir statue of the "Washerwoman" above, but I don't value it as it relates to pull-ups, because the immature girl in the bottom right corner of "The Grand Bathers" could obviously do a pull-up much more easily than the more mature woman featured in the center of the painting. Also, compare the bathers in the Renoir painting to the models featured on this website for a line of clothing named Renoir, because it is supposedly designed for "vivacious women with fuller busts and curvaceous hips." Does this help you understand why women may become defensive, angry, and ultimately just totally fed up in this realm?

https://loomes.co/collections/renoir

Here's a picture of me (soon to be removed) at around age 21, 5'9" approximately 150 lbs. I definitely believed that I wasn't thin enough, because the chart for Ideal Weight told me so, and even though I was performing the Jane Fonda workout quite regularly, highly doubtful that I could have performed a pull-up:


Here's a picture of me (also soon to be removed) at age 49 or 50, still 5'9", but now around 180 lbs. I definitely believed that I wasn't thin enough, because the Healthy BMI chart told me so, even though I was hiking, biking, or swimming 6 days/week, and I was dating 3 different quite attractive men. Extremely unlikely (okay, known fact) that I could have performed a pull-up.:



Now I am nearing on 60 (will turn 59 next week), and in addition to my usual level of zaftig, I now have a tum full of post-menopausal belly fat, but I am tired, so very tired, of never being content with my weight or appearance, and I'm also thoroughly disinterested in suffering through whatever form of starvation and grueling calisthenics would render me towards the sort of Stripling-Crone physique that would allow someone with my natural phenotype to perform a pull-up. My rejection of all "health" and "beauty" and "fitness" metrics that drive every human towards the appearance of a 14 year old boy is thorough and profound. Come up with some new metrics or count me right the f*ck out of the Level Orange "contest."

ETA: My vitriole here is meant for Diet Culture, not Jacob.

[zbigi]

I'm not sure pullup is a good measure for women, as you have something of a 30-40% of men's upper body strength, and also more fat (so more to lift up)? Maybe something like 5 pushups would be a better measure.

[chenda]

Looking great @7!

but I am tired, so very tired, of never being content with my weight or appearance

I can definitely sympathise with this. When I was in my early 20s I considered myself short and dumpy, as skinny girls were all the rage and my attempts to replicate it went straight up against genetic limitations. Then in my late 20s/early 30s I was on SSRIs which caused me to gain a load of weight to become unhealthy and dulled my mind against emotions, so I didn't really care about my appearance (this is not to start a debate about the merits of SSRIs just my own experience of them) When I came off them at 35 I was physically a mess, and sometimes I think I messed up what should have been the peak decades of my life.

However, what really helped me was doing bodyweight exercises in the last few years (thank you forumites for all your helpful advice) I do a ultra simple, minimalist routine 3 days a week (10 press ups, 10 squats and 10 doorframe pulls) and for the first time in my life I actually feel comfortable in my body and strutting around in swimwear. Although I have got more leaner and more toned the real benefits were psychological. I know it all sounds a bit woo-woo but for some reason bodyweight movements really improve the mind-body relationship. They also improve your posture and general deportment, which can have a massive positive impact on appearance. Yoga and similar exercises can do the same thing but you don't get the key strength gain benefits which are really essential especially for women.

[jacob]

Your expression of your values that may be related to weight loss or maintenance also reminded my of discussions I've had with my INFP sister and how her strong sense of aesthetics and personal style is related to weight loss and maintenance.

Similar behavior can be driven by different values. For example, what motivates people to go to the [home-]gym?
1) For some it is to transform their body into a certain look in order to fit an aesthetics (their own, their possible partners, that of their culture,...).
2) For some it is to reduce the likelihood of [lifestyle] diseases, increasing longevity, health-span, etc.
3) For some it is to increase physical performance in e.g. sports, potential disasters, or everyday life.

The fact that people will do self-similar activities for very different reasons is fascinating to me(*). It's similar to how some people will live on $7000/year in order to FIRE ASAP while others will live on $7000/year in pursuit of resilience under a moral constraint of equitable sustainability. What's interesting is that either of the two (or three) gets the other ones for free even if they don't care about those other values. The FIRE math is the same. The exercise math is the same. They are also similar to each other being essentially a "bath tub with a drain and a faucet"-model to the first order. And of course second-order models (now with feedback and resulting S-curves) can also be constructed.

(*) Perhaps the key to breaking the Tier2 code.

However, due to the different values, the subjective experience of the activity can be very very very different. You don't care very much for tracking or beating metrics (Orange). Neither do I. In terms of vMemes I'd ascribe my "physicality"-values to Beige (being able to extract oneself from a dangerous situation, like pulling oneself back on a boat after falling off(**), running and climbing over a fence before the crazy dog gets you, ...), Red ("if I can't beat a mugger, I can at least outrun them. And vice versa." (I identify as a pocket battleship)), and to some degree just having an integrated mind-body as a physical being (I'm not sure what color that is) cf. thinking of the body as a mere vehicle for my special mind (Orange) or my beautiful feels (Green) or my sacred soul (Blue).

(**) Which also means---due to a Beige perspective---I'm not a fan of "handicapping" the metrics: Either someone can pull oneself back on the boat or out the window of a burning building or they can't. Drowning or fire does not allow for gender, age, income, education, ... OTOH an Orange/Green value-system would approach it differently: To meet a certain metric while remaining inclusive, different people get different metrics.

I think, therefore, that the key to unlocking a "diet" (which originally meant "a way of life" and not "temporary starvation to drop 10 pounds") is to find one's personally motivating values. The physics (models and metaphors) is objectively the same regardless of different people's different subjective motivations. It's not that running is easy for some and super complicated for others. Or that chewing vegetables is easy for some and complicated for others. It's that some like kale and others like cake; some like to sit and some like to move; some like the experience of a body that moves quickly and freely and others don't really care for that; and so on.

The only problem is when anyone develops or is born with subjective values that has no solution in objective space, that is, they value something they can never have.

Overall, I think it rather worthwhile to run an AQAL analysis when it comes to values: What do I want/What can I get/What do they want/What can they get. Acceptance is found once the overlap between the four quadrants is identified.

[7Wannabe5]

I'm not sure pullup is a good measure for women, as you have something of a 30-40% of men's upper body strength, and also more fat (so more to lift up)? Maybe something like 5 pushups would be a better measure.

I went off on more than a bit of a tangent in my above post, but the general argument that I was attempting to make is that there is a general tendency to confound "fitness" with "health" and "health" with "appearance" or "erotic capital", and for reasons that are largely historical (women and slaves didn't compete in the original Olympics, the only categories were Men (citizens) and Boys(future citizens)), fitness and associated health metrics are generally well-associated with the physique of a young male. The opposite muscle strength measure of recent study of American college males vs. females was greatest at 30.8 vs. 82.4 on arm curl (37.4%) and least on leg extension at (62.6%). IOW, women generally have a COM (center of muscle) that is much lower on the frame than men. Kangaroo vs. Chimpanzee. The hormonal fat distribution pattern which is associated with being "curvy" as a female is also well-associated with health and longevity (Waist to Hip measure is much better indicator than BMI) , but this distribution also makes it more difficult to perform a pull-up. OTOH, for reasons purely associated with physics, it is also more difficult for tall people to perform a pull-up. Ergo, a tall, healthy/curvy female will almost certainly have the greatest difficulty performing a pull-up vs. actuarial longevity prediction. And this is a good example of why population statistics should not be applied to individuals.This is also why I was only semi-joking when I suggested twerking contest in lieu of Burpees contest on that thread.

Looking great @7!

Thanks, but not really looking for validation. Lifelong self-improvement retrospective is my Skillathon focus for this month, and it has been depressing/enlightening to realize how much life-energy (since age 13!!!) I have spent(wasted) on dieting. Think of how many more creative projects I might have accomplished if "Lose Umpteen lbs." hadn't been on my resolution list most years. I minimalized my photo collection, so my examples above are a bit weak, but I recently read a study linked to my Intuitive Eating book on BMI that indicated that women who start out in young adulthood at "healthy" BMI and then rise up to "over-weight" BMI at midlife (after age 50) actually live the longest. So, I was trying to exhibit how "normal" that can look with my own photos. Because I have tracked my metrics over the years, I know that my Waist-to-Hip ratio was approximately the same at age 50 as it was when I was 21, because although I was significantly heavier, my weight had consolidated (fallen)more upon my hips. Carrying weight on your hips as an aging female is indicative of both overall higher level of estrogenic protection against aging factors (the inverted triangle Barbie distribution is indicative of relatively low estrogen and high testosterone) and protective of highly deadly possibility of hip fracture. So, keeping yourself skeletal-looking or super-hard focus on metric such as body fat percentage as an aging female is counter-productive. That said, I am somewhat concerned about the fact that I do now have relatively more belly-fat post-menopause although my waist-to-hip ratio is still within the healthy range, but moderate hormonal replacement might be a more rational choice than starving off my ass along with my belly. I need to do more research.

I know it all sounds a bit woo-woo but for some reason bodyweight movements really improve the mind-body relationship. They also improve your posture and general deportment, which can have a massive positive impact on appearance. Yoga and similar exercises can do the same thing but you don't get the key strength gain benefits which are really essential especially for women.

Congratulations on your accomplishments! I know I likely came off as being anti-strength training in the above post, but that is not at all what I was attempting to communicate. Strength training is hugely protective for women as they age, but using metrics designed for young men can be discouraging. In another study, a trainer worked with a group of women for three months training them towards doing a pull-up, and none of them were able to do one by the end of the period. Talk about a motivational downer of an S-Curve! Similarly, strength training exercises which put equal emphasis on upper and lower body strength can also be discouraging and/or likely to lead to injury. For instance, when I attempted to perform the lift Jacob recommended for overall conditioning in the book, my leg muscles were significantly under-challenged at a weight that was much too heavy for me to safely lift overhead. I have not yet processed my Body Positivity therapy to the extent that I am able to be transparent about my current weight , but performing squats or climbing the 4 flights of stairs to my apartment loaded down with backpack and several bags of groceries is not a problem for me. Anyways, I agree with your observation about mind-body relationship, and it is my intention to focus on increasing my fun with "movement" while not focusing on my weight or similar movement-metrics. I think Slevin wrote on some thread here that body-building/weight-training is the male equivalent of beauty contests, so also a vibe to be avoided. I think I will start with hiking in the woods without keeping track of time or distance.

Some forms of yoga are also pretty metric free and would be highly coherent with my newly added Skillathon focus on Transcendent Sexuality. The note Jacob made on value of "strength" morphed in my mind with my note on how women are too seeking of validation sexually, and made me realize that there was something to do with "muscle" that was sexually icking me out about my belly. At first I was thinking, "I don't like it, because it gets in the way.", but that makes no sense, because I enjoyed sex with quantum level huger abdomen while pregnant, and the paunches of my 60-plus male lovers are obviously more functionally problematic. Then I thought, "Okay, it's just simple vanity.", but that didn't seem quite right either. Then I realized that it might be the case for me (and all the other post-menopausal women in the study I mentioned above) that post-menopausal belly fat is just the obvious symbol of reduced hormone levels. In my research to support my anti-pull-up-metric argument, I also happened upon an article advising men to do their strength-training leg work prior to their arm work, because the testosterone release from the larger leg muscles would actually aid with arm muscle development. And that made me realize that the likely reason why "I" like a bit of muscularity in my sex is that it boosts my testosterone levels to higher level in the moment. IOW, sex that is towards me lying there like a soft Rubenesque toss pillow is not "my" ideal, because it does not produce neurochemical level adequate to open up para-sympathetic center to the extent that I can "trip out" (not to be confused with simply orgasming.) And having more "trip out" level sex is high on my future self bucket list. Anyways, made plans to have dinner with one of my polys tomorrow, and I am feeling much more cheerful on many levels due to the reflective work I've done so far.

@jacob: Cross-posting here. Will reply to your very interesting post a bit later.

[theanimal]

Strength training is hugely protective for women as they age, but using metrics designed for young men can be discouraging. In another study, a trainer worked with a group of women for three months training them towards doing a pull-up, and none of them were able to do one by the end of the period. Talk about a motivational downer of an S-Curve!

To nitpick a little bit, the study* involved 17 women over the course of 3 months. The women did weighted exercises three days a week that focused on upper body strength and used an incline to do modified pull ups. By the end of the 3 months, 4 of the 17 women could do a pull up.

For our purposes, I'll ignore the study's time restriction and how some people may need more than 3 months. Now, if I'm training someone to do a certain exercise, I would think it prudent to include practice of that very exercise, instead of training some related measures and hoping they transfer over. The way to train for pull ups when you can't do them is not to train with weights, but to practice negatives (bring yourself up to the bar via a chair or something similar) then as slowly as you can, lower yourself down until your arms are locked out. Repeat X number of times for a few sets. Slowly increase the number of repetitions each week. Band assisted (or partner assisted for those with the Social Capital) pullups can help as well. Doing the negatives along with that helps and you can reduce the amount of assistance each week until you no longer need assistance.

If you can already do pull ups, then yes, the way to do more is to do more pull ups! But that is not the practice if you starting from a place where you can't do any. The problem in this case is a poor prescription of training.

If you do the negatives consistently, you will be able to do a pull up. Personally, I have been able to help Mrs. Animal and a female friend of mine go from zero to one with this method, both of whom could not do pull ups previously. I have no doubt, with similar training that you (@7) or any other woman on this forum could do the same.

*Article about the study here:https://archive.nytimes.com/well.blogs. ... -pull-ups/