Permanent Nomad

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WFJ
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Permanent Nomad

Post by WFJ »

Has anyone been a somewhat permanent nomad for a time period of 1-5 years and have any experiences (good or bad)? I have been exploring a second residence in other countries and it appears it is quite easy and cheap to be a semi-nomadic traveler spending 3-6 months in different countries but complicated and expensive to secure a second residence in any single country. I have kind of been a semi-nomadic traveler out of happenstance in the past, but now considering doing this as a plan (several years out of the past 15 I've lived in several countries in one calendar year).

For example, in several countries, a US or EU citizen can just show up with a valid passport and live for 1-3 months for free, usually extend this for 1-2 months for $50 and do this 2-3 times a year vs. permanent residence usually requires some deposit, average $50k and can be as high as $250k where the applicant does not earn interest and has a non-zero probability of seizure, in addition must jump through several hoops that appear, from anecdotal evidence, to be nothing more than bribing opportunities. With interest rates at 5% a $50k deposit is $2500/year and does not have the risk of ever being seized. Financially it makes sense to be temporarily permanent, but wondering if there are pitfalls I'm not seeing.

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Re: Permanent Nomad

Post by chenda »

When you say second residence do you mean buying property in a second country and splitting you time between the two ?

Humanofearth
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Re: Permanent Nomad

Post by Humanofearth »

Done the nomad thing. It works but visa runs every 1-12 months get tiring when you bore of travel. Also, countries don’t want to see you leave a day or week and return. They want to see you gone for weeks or months and not for years on end. Mexico has cracked down on this practice amongst many other countries.

Also, you used the word never. There is a non-zero risk of your treasury bills getting seized. US had seized many other country’s and citizens of other country’s and citizen assets. They can find an excuse for you as well if you fall into a category they don’t like. Diversifying in many countries or networks is safer. Renouncing is a good option if you decide you never want to visit again and have a better passport. Visas are easy to secure in many cases. An education visa typically lasts a year and gives many options on what to learn.

Laura Ingalls
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Re: Permanent Nomad

Post by Laura Ingalls »

We are thinking about doing something similar once the youngest is launched. We hold US passports and aren’t particularly looking to add to or change that. I think our plan is just to use the max tourist visa and then wander elsewhere. That might change if we found some place that we wanted to commit to more than a monthly Airbnb

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Re: Permanent Nomad

Post by jacob »

This channel went on (and still goes on) for several years doing tourist visas in Europe. There's an enormous amount of material here.
Due to US passport, this meant switching between Schengen and non-Schengen on a regular basis.

https://www.youtube.com/@LisaLansing/videos

They done van-living, built a tiny house, airbnbs, ...

WFJ
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Re: Permanent Nomad

Post by WFJ »

chenda wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:18 am
When you say second residence do you mean buying property in a second country and splitting you time between the two ?
Second as in living in a non-US country, not interested in purchasing property. The idea came as each country I'm considering has quite stringent rules and relatively high capital requirements (given the cost of living) for permanent residents and have friends in several of these countries who are dealing with issues. I previously always had an employer deal with the Visa issues and was never aware of the complexities. The same countries have almost no requirements (a pulse, loosely enforced, appears to be the only hurdle to clear) for those visiting, so my thinking is why fight the system, let it work for me. Different countries also provide different opportunities at different times of year while no country is appealing during "low season".

Due to some complex US tax/ACA laws, looking to spend 11 months and one day in non-US locations for years. Plan would be to spend 3-4 months in 3-4 countries rather than 11 months in one non-US country. It is quite easy to sit at a computer and plan something out for 6-12-24 months, but my instinct detects that execution will be more challenging and wondering if this has occurred with other FIRE members.

WFJ
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Re: Permanent Nomad

Post by WFJ »

Laura Ingalls wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:36 am
We are thinking about doing something similar once the youngest is launched. We hold US passports and aren’t particularly looking to add to or change that. I think our plan is just to use the max tourist visa and then wander elsewhere. That might change if we found some place that we wanted to commit to more than a monthly Airbnb
Same here, will not give up a US passport. Planned on mostly staying in one country I previously lived in for 2-6 months at time for 5+ times over the past 15 years. Oddly, it is extremely easy to stay for 5-6 months, but quite challenging to stay for 6 months or more. Makes no sense, but this is the reality on the ground (I'm in one of the countries now). The idea of going to two other countries for 2-3 months rather than fight to stay for an additional 5 months just seems more appealing. It is just one of many things that are not included in the brochure but are the reality on the ground.

chenda
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Re: Permanent Nomad

Post by chenda »

Some countries are offering digital nomad visas which might be easier than years of visa runs. They can be valid in some cases for a year and renewed a number of times.

WFJ
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Re: Permanent Nomad

Post by WFJ »

Humanofearth wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:37 am
Done the nomad thing. It works but visa runs every 1-12 months get tiring when you bore of travel. Also, countries don’t want to see you leave a day or week and return. They want to see you gone for weeks or months and not for years on end. Mexico has cracked down on this practice amongst many other countries.

Also, you used the word never. There is a non-zero risk of your treasury bills getting seized. US had seized many other country’s and citizens of other country’s and citizen assets. They can find an excuse for you as well if you fall into a category they don’t like. Diversifying in many countries or networks is safer. Renouncing is a good option if you decide you never want to visit again and have a better passport. Visas are easy to secure in many cases. An education visa typically lasts a year and gives many options on what to learn.
Usually just max tourist visa-extensions, then move on. Have maybe done one visa run (some kind of contract issue) as these are considered abuses that can result in denial at any time. I've recently found out that some countries restrict entries (three per year) while one can stay nearly 8 months also on three entries. One person could be in the country for a month in one year and be denied it is the 4th entry while another person could have stayed 5 months and get admitted for a third time no problem. Makes no sense to me. In the past, working visas were handled by employers and melted away all travel complexities that are either more difficult post-COVID or I was just ignorant of these issues before.

US government has many shortcomings, but seizing assets from citizens is not one of them (thank you 2nd amendment).

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Re: Permanent Nomad

Post by jacob »

WFJ wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:47 am
US government has many shortcomings, but seizing assets from citizens is not one of them (thank you 2nd amendment).
You mean 4th?

Western Red Cedar
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Re: Permanent Nomad

Post by Western Red Cedar »

WFJ wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:48 am
Has anyone been a somewhat permanent nomad for a time period of 1-5 years and have any experiences (good or bad)?
I did this for almost four years in my twenties. I lived for a full year on a work visa, traveled for a year, came back for another year on a work visa, then traveled for another nine months. I'm planning on going nomadic again later this year.

I'd say there are two general approaches I've observed:

1. Relocate at least a few times per year, or more regularly, and rely on tourist visas. This is by far the easiest from a paperwork perspective. The nuts and bolts of the strategy will depend on what area of the world you want to spend time.

2. Try to obtain a longer-term visa or work towards permanent residency. This typically includes much more detailed planning and paperwork, but is possible through a variety of avenues if one is willing to put in the work.

Some people try to develop a hybrid of the two by utilizing 6 month (or even 12 month) tourist visas in certain countries so they can establish some sense of community and routine for 6-9 months of the year in a single location, while still traveling for a few months and without going through the effort of gaining permanent residency.

The rules are always changing, and as mentioned upthread, Mexico has started tightening down on the 6 month tourist visas. My personal strategy would vary if I was looking at a home base in SE Asia, Central America, S. America, Western Europe, or Eastern Europe.

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Re: Permanent Nomad

Post by classical_Liberal »

If you are planning to stay in one country long term it pays to look into residency opportunities. Many of the "developing" countries provide options for residency if you bring enough money into the country. Often times this can be proof of monthly income rather than a large deposit. US specific, US citizen bank accounts can be a nightmare for foreign banks, so bringing in large lump sums may be more difficult than you think.
Humanofearth wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:37 am
Mexico has cracked down on this practice amongst many other countries.
Complete reversal on this policy in Mexico in the last six months. US and Canadian passport holders are now funneled through automated customs checkpoints with max visa time (180 days for US) automatically provided, no questions asked, no exit plan required, no human contact needed. This has not been implemented at all incoming air travel points yet, but my understanding it will be in the near future. It is also legal to work for your home country on a tourist visa in Mexico. You just can't work for a Mexican company, although its about a 50% cash economy, so do what you will with that information.

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Re: Permanent Nomad

Post by unemployable »

Also look into retirement visas, if that isn't what people are discussing here already. For most countries that have them you must be 45 or 50, and prove a minimum income and/or level of assets. (An excellent use case for 72t withdrawals, if they're permissible as proof of income.) They work best if you plan to make the target country your home base (i.e., move there), and in many cases the visa holder is limited to a certain number of days that can be spent outside the country in the first few years. So it may not afford true nomadism but hey, no visa runs.

WFJ
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Re: Permanent Nomad

Post by WFJ »

jacob wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:06 am
You mean 4th?
After the COVID hysteria and face crimes/thought crimes over the past few years, 2nd amendment is the most effective way to protect property in the US.

WFJ
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Re: Permanent Nomad

Post by WFJ »

Western Red Cedar wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:12 pm
I did this for almost four years in my twenties. I lived for a full year on a work visa, traveled for a year, came back for another year on a work visa, then traveled for another nine months. I'm planning on going nomadic again later this year.

I'd say there are two general approaches I've observed:

1. Relocate at least a few times per year, or more regularly, and rely on tourist visas. This is by far the easiest from a paperwork perspective. The nuts and bolts of the strategy will depend on what area of the world you want to spend time.

2. Try to obtain a longer-term visa or work towards permanent residency. This typically includes much more detailed planning and paperwork, but is possible through a variety of avenues if one is willing to put in the work.

Some people try to develop a hybrid of the two by utilizing 6 month (or even 12 month) tourist visas in certain countries so they can establish some sense of community and routine for 6-9 months of the year in a single location, while still traveling for a few months and without going through the effort of gaining permanent residency.
I was going to follow #2 in 1-2 countries until the on the ground realities of the costs and paperwork created the motivation to follow strategy #1 in 3+ countries. Please let me know ff you had any "Wish I would have known X" utterances during the travels. The paperwork in several countries is complicated, costly and often require "fast tracking" fees (aka bribes) to be completed in a timely matter (or not get lost) which are recurring and always increase over time.

Most permanent residencies require $250k+ or working for 5 years which defeats the purpose of FIRE. Being a permanent traveler to different countries appears to be an immigration grey area and looking for pitfalls.

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Re: Permanent Nomad

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

Yes, did it for a year and a half in 2020/2021 and just launched again last October. Splitting time over the next few years between Schengen EU, non-Schengen EU, SE Asia, USA and possibly south/central America and/or Mexico.

Being able to arbitrage based on currency strength, weather, geopolitical climate, climate change etc are some of the advantages. The disadvantages are also numerous. Covid was a proof that ease of movement can easily be restricted, every day tasks are somewhat more involved in foreign countries, sense of community is harder to establish. If you keep returning to the same place/people in these 3-4 countries regularly, some of these issues start to matter less I suppose.

Will be sharing our journey in my journal here moving forward. Right now we're in the USA for another couple of months with 6 months planned in Europe after. Fall into winter will likely be Japan, Bali and Thailand, followed by some time in SE USA and possibly HI. Rinse and repeat?

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Re: Permanent Nomad

Post by Western Red Cedar »

WFJ wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:41 pm
Please let me know ff you had any "Wish I would have known X" utterances during the travels.

Being a permanent traveler to different countries appears to be an immigration grey area and looking for pitfalls.
@2B1S hit on most of the potential pitfalls. The dynamics and potential obstacles change depending on how long you want to remain nomadic, and how often you want to return to a particular country or set of countries in a region. The longer you are relying on a tourist visa to regularly return to a country in a short period of time, the higher the risk is with running into some kind of problem with immigration. I still follow a basic rule of looking clean and presentable whenever I'm traveling though customs.

I was doing a traditional, shoestring backpacking approach on the travels I mentioned so I never had any issues with visas or immigration. I often got multiple entry visas in advance for places like India or China in which I knew I would be entering on more than one occasion.

Based on what I've heard from other nomads, the lack of community and perpetual travel seem to be among the biggest problems. Budget travel can be a grind. Particularly if you are committed to using public transportation and you clearly stand out as a foreigner. The main "wish I would have known" reflection is simply to slow down and keep a flexible itinerary. I got better with this the longer I traveled. When I find a spot that I really like, I'll try to stay there longer and enjoy it rather than moving on based on a rough schedule I planned. I also like the approach of picking a region, and identifying some potential cities or areas that look appealing, but adjusting plans based on feedback from other travelers or locals.

*ETA - I've plugged Tim Leffel before on the forum. He recently updated his book "A Better Life for Half the Price" and I believe it talks quite a bit about the tradeoffs between the nomadic and residency approaches of living abroad. I haven't actually bought the book as I'm pretty cheap, but I've heard him interviewed on a number of podcasts and read a bunch of stuff on his cheapest destinations blog: https://www.cheapestdestinationsblog.com

He basically says you can find all of the information from the book online if you are willing to put in a lot of time and energy, or you can buy his book for $10 and get it from a single source: https://www.amazon.com/Better-Life-Half ... merReviews

-----

@2B1S - It is possible DW and I will be in SE Asia in late 2023. I'm not sure if we are heading south or east yet. Would love to meet up if we are both there. As I mentioned, our itinerary is flexible :D

WFJ
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Re: Permanent Nomad

Post by WFJ »

2Birds1Stone wrote:
Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:51 am


Being able to arbitrage based on currency strength, weather, geopolitical climate, climate change etc are some of the advantages. The disadvantages are also numerous. Covid was a proof that ease of movement can easily be restricted, every day tasks are somewhat more involved in foreign countries, sense of community is harder to establish. If you keep returning to the same place/people in these 3-4 countries regularly, some of these issues start to matter less I suppose.

Will be sharing our journey in my journal here moving forward. Right now we're in the USA for another couple of months with 6 months planned in Europe after. Fall into winter will likely be Japan, Bali and Thailand, followed by some time in SE USA and possibly HI. Rinse and repeat?
I will follow your journal travels. Plan to maximize weather, winter where it's hot, summer where it's cool. Japan, Bali and Thailand are on the list, seasons almost perfectly complement each other (Jan-May in Thailand, June-August in Bali, Southern Japan Sept-November, December in the US, repeat would be a potential plan. It is harder to establish oneself in different countries but find it easier when one is moving from high season to high season in different countries compared to establishing deep ties in one country, without the social aspects of employment.

What I still have a hard time understanding is why more people don't just travel cheaply in 3-4 countries rather than pay to obtain permanence in one country (assuming one does not have kids).

For example, if someone spent 4 months in Belize/Mexico/Thailand/Czech/DR (any country), then went to immigration applying for some kind of permanence and the officer said "I'll give you $2,500-$5,000+ to travel and spend 4 months in Belize/Mexico/Thailand/Czech/DR and 4 months in Belize/Mexico/Thailand/Czech/DR non-repeating" I can't imagine anyone turning down the offer. But when one signs up for Nomad visas, most retirement visas and golden visas, this is the decision all are making if one includes opportunity costs of fees and committed capital.

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Re: Permanent Nomad

Post by unemployable »

WFJ wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:43 am
What I still have a hard time understanding is why more people don't just travel cheaply in 3-4 countries rather than pay to obtain permanence in one country (assuming one does not have kids).
Barriers to entry — the literal kind but the soft kind too. Having to find lodging every time, hoping you understand the language and the customs around finding lodging and aren't getting taken and so on. I guess this is easier nowadays with airbnb, but that tends to be more expensive, trading convenience for cost. Changing accommodation every week or two just makes it harder. The soft barrier is once you do this the first time in a given country the future trips become easier.

Continuous travel isn't easy, takes effort to stay within most budgets and as I get old discover it isn't as fun as it used to be — I say this as a United million miler who used to cross both the Atlantic and Pacific at least yearly. I'm dealing with this on a smaller scale with housesitting. Always got to pack up and move on eventually and you want to be scheduled at least two trips in advance. Always a hustle.
For example, if someone spent 4 months in Belize/Mexico/Thailand/Czech/DR (any country), then went to immigration applying for some kind of permanence and the officer said "I'll give you $2,500-$5,000+ to travel and spend 4 months in Belize/Mexico/Thailand/Czech/DR and 4 months in Belize/Mexico/Thailand/Czech/DR non-repeating" I can't imagine anyone turning down the offer.
Yeah but customs don't work that way; the rules don't exist for the benefit of the nomad and countries don't cooperate like that. Belize doesn't care about anything other than who's entering and leaving Belize and not much of an argument exists to Belize otherwise. And again you're trading convenience for cost. Perhaps this will change as nomadism gets more popular, such that a group of say, Caribbean or SE Asian countries come together to offer a sort of nomadic Schngen area. I think we're far from that though, and farther still from any arrangement accommodating climate surfing.

Western Red Cedar
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Re: Permanent Nomad

Post by Western Red Cedar »

WFJ wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:43 am
What I still have a hard time understanding is why more people don't just travel cheaply in 3-4 countries rather than pay to obtain permanence in one country (assuming one does not have kids).
This has been the backbone of the digital nomad strategy for the last 15 years. It is fairly common. Some of the newer digital nomad hotspots such as Georgia and Mexico are popular, in part, because they provide more generous tourist visas (12 months and 6 months respectively).

Older expats and retirees living on a fixed income may not utilize this strategy for a variety of reasons. One of which is that they are still tied to a mentality in which home ownership, even in another country, is the best way to provide some security and control expenses.

There are opportunities for longer-term stays with minimal financial commitments in certain countries depending on your circumstances. Some of the newer digital nomad visas I've seen basically just require proof of incoming income from an employer to qualify for the visa, with a small application fee. I think Germany allows a one-year visa geared towards artists assuming they can demonstrate an income from their craft and are willing to jump through the application process.

The Millenial Revolution website has posts about working holiday visas and non-lucrative visas that could work well depending on your circumstance. Whenever I travel to British Columbia I see loads of people from commonwealth countries working near the tourist locations. I'm assuming they are using a working holiday visa.

https://www.millennial-revolution.com/f ... e-90-days/

https://www.millennial-revolution.com/f ... rmanently/

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