Dying Well

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chenda
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Re: Dying Well

Post by chenda »

guitarplayer wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:45 am
There is a documentary along the dark side of those lines about people in Scandinavia who die and there is nobody to inherit little there is left, so the council employees take the task of post mortem death cleaning.
I worked once for a housing association and there were a number of incidents of neighbours reporting unpleasant odours coming from a property. Eventually the police forced entry and would find a decomposing body who had died months earlier and obviously had no one who missed them. Is very common apparently. Milk bottles pilling up on the front step used to be an early warning sign, but that doesn't happen these days.

ertyu
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Re: Dying Well

Post by ertyu »

This happened to the guy whose apartment i bought and i am sure will also happen to me. I don't mind dying alone, I just prefer I remember how to go shit by myself and that i don't suffer.

jacob
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Re: Dying Well

Post by jacob »

It's my understanding that most Danes spend the last 6-12 months of their life in a retirement home. This means downsizing to a studio sized apartment (~20m2) with a shared common room to socialize for those who are into that. IOW, people are basically forced to do some "Swedish Death Cleaning" in order to move into a retirement home. Much like in the US, family, friends, and recycling centers/thrift stores/garbage containers tend to end up with the discards in case no pro-active effort was made.

The public pension (everybody gets the same amount regardless of lifetime income; it's about $1000/month with a COL similar to the US Midwest) covers room and board with some money leftover to spend on fun. Effectively, retirees finish up their life living much like university students. Very few die at home. Dying at home would require spouse or family to put in a lot of effort to make it so. The other solution is very easy, so dying at home is somewhat rare as far as I know.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Dying Well

Post by Hristo Botev »

A couple things. First, a timely video from Bp. Barron on the issue that presents the Catholic take: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKcXCK1T2Jw

Second,
jacob wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:56 am
It's my understanding that most Danes spend the last 6-12 months of their life in a retirement home. This means downsizing to a studio sized apartment (~20m2) with a shared common room to socialize for those who are into that. IOW, people are basically forced to do some "Swedish Death Cleaning" in order to move into a retirement home. Much like in the US, family, friends, and recycling centers/thrift stores/garbage containers tend to end up with the discards in case no pro-active effort was made.
The reluctance among some older people to downsize as they grow older is something that drives DW crazy; she and her siblings and parents and aunts/uncles/cousins had to clean out her grandparents' home after her grandfather died and they had to move grandma to a home. They'd been in that home for over 50 years. Very, very emotional; scarred DW. Would have much preferred to do that exercise while her grandfather was still alive and able-minded. I don't know what my "take" on all that is (I wonder if there wasn't some good that came out of what was a painful time in DW's life), but we are kinda dealing with this now with my dad, who is about to turn 80 and who is nevertheless the primary caretaker for my step-mom who has dementia and needs constant supervision. They are in a massive 5-br home that is absolutely filled to the brim with decades and decades of stuff. I help my dad out now at least once a week (part of the reason we moved back home), and DW is quick to tell me, fairly regularly: "You know we're going to end up having to clean this place out in the not so distant future; and it's going to wreck us both emotionally and physically." Yep, she ain't wrong.

chenda
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Re: Dying Well

Post by chenda »

I'm glad my aunt was able to live in her sprawling town house right to the end, where she lived for over 60 years. Clearing out her stuff was actually very cathartic and satisfying. It's nice to do something for a loved one even after they have gone. Everything went to an appropriate place and I think she would have been pleased with our decisions.

jacob
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Re: Dying Well

Post by jacob »

My goal is to die with a shoe box/backpack/carry-on worth of possessions. If nothing else, leaving that amount of remaining junk should be easy to deal with. In terms of financial assets, I'm going for the same ease and closing down the business that is me. Accounts and access known. Smooth path forward. In terms of body and organs: Up for grabs too. Everybody use those according to needs. The other 150 pounds of bodily fluids, fat, bones, and protein, to recycle into the local environment.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: Dying Well

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

In terms of diaries/journals, you can always donate them to a historical preservation society. Here's an example of one such organization: https://www.thegreatdiaryproject.co.uk/

I'd be pretty horrified if any friends or family members read my journals but I wouldn't mind historians in 100 years from now reading through them.

chenda
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Re: Dying Well

Post by chenda »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:20 pm
In terms of diaries/journals, you can always donate them to a historical preservation society. Here's an example of one such organization: https://www.thegreatdiaryproject.co.uk/
Yes that's what I've willed with my diaries. Can't be certain I won't redact some of the really embarrassing stuff though :lol:

Frita
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Re: Dying Well

Post by Frita »

From what I remember of Magnusson’s “The Gentle Art of Swedish Death Cleaning,” she recommends a memory box. It contains one’s private momentos, like diaries, with instructions to destroy upon death.

Also, I know that my state’s state archive will accept donations of collections of letters, dairies, etc. One can stipulate that they are not released for n-years.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Dying Well

Post by classical_Liberal »

Thank you for this thread.
Ego wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:22 pm
Living beyond one's healthspan is the largest contributor to a bad death.
Also consider living beyond loved ones healthspan, like below. In some cases the healthspan of your entire generation. When cultutral changes makes it feel like you live in a different world, this is a difficult psychological issue to deal with, so psycological-healthspan should be considered (not just in terms of dementia).
Ego wrote:
Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:28 pm
Is he willing to suffer the indignities of outliving his healthspan to allow his spouse to avoid suffering his loss.
Many couples only remain independent because they have a symbiotic relationship that maintains dignity and functionality. Many (most) times, once part of the team is gone, the ship sinks for the other participant(s). This is a real fear.

I see this happening a lot with children and grandchildren as well. Specifically when care of elder has been outsourced from the family. Family does not see or take part in the indignities of needing help to bath twice a week, etc. So it's easy to be a bit more selfish in wanting a family elder to continue on.
jacob wrote:
Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:40 am
I recall a longer article about someone who had vowed not to accept life-critical medical treatment after the age of N, where N was 70ish?

I suspect this could easily become a moving goal post type of situation both in terms of N and criticality.
Certain outcomes of certain medical interventions have such a low probability of meaningful recovery with certain conditions (age being a big one), that statistically it's kind of nuts to wish to make the effort. Anyone choosing such a procedure should physically see what the probable outcomes look like before moving forward. Example, over a certain age intubation and mechanical ventilation have very low percent positive outcomes. Why go through this? It's not unlike a form of torture IMO.

The bottom line is that this is something we should all think about, talk about with loved ones, make good decisions in advance.

chenda
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Re: Dying Well

Post by chenda »

I knew of a woman who was diagnosed with terminal cancer in her early 30s. She had two young children and decided to fight until the bitter end, endless rounds of chemotherapy. The side effects were horrendous and only marginally increased her life expectancy, to the point the doctors and even her best friend suggested she consider easing off and enjoy a better quality of life in the time remaining. But she felt she had to stay alive as long as possible for her two young girls. Its not for me to say she made the wrong decision but as an outsider it could look at way. Either way, life can be so brutally unfair.

Frita
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Re: Dying Well

Post by Frita »

chenda wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:28 pm
That is so common. I know a woman who quit her job when her spouse was diagnosed with stage 4 melanoma. They pulled their three kids out of school, homeschooled, and slow traveled. Her spouse actually survived longer and suffered less (her opinion). That sounds better than the former to me.

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