Through Conversations #2

[jacob]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REFwqTQ7k24

00:00 Intro.
01:30 How To Brace For A Recession With Early Retirement Extreme Principles.
04:55 How To Leverage The Internet To Be Skill Resilient.
07:01 Adulthood & Preparing the Grounds For The 22nd Century
11:38 Are Our Tools an Extension of Ourselves?
14:15 The Dangers Of The Productization of People.
17:05 Choice Architecture and Capitalism.
21:00 Can We Solve Macro-Societal Problems With the ERE Approach?
26:55 Modern Education, Downside of Self-Education, & Identifying Ourselves With Our Job.
31:44 What Is the Real Meaning of Being Wealthy?
36:20 How To Approach The Seven Fields of Life.
43:36 Early Retirement Extreme, Success, & Spirituality.
46:40 Advice on How Pivot Points and Crises Can Shape Our Lives.

[AnalyticalEngine]

Really interesting conversation. The part about school training you to be a work and how we've started to see other people of commodities reminds me a lot of the analysis done inside the critical theory branch of philosophy.

Namely, Marx writes that capitalism is really a social relationship between people organized through commodities. That is, when you go to buy a shirt at the store, it's easy to think the shirt simply manifested there, but that isn't true at all. What's hidden is the whole line of people who came together to make that shirt who were organized into that social structure through the market.

After WWII, thinkers like DeBoard, Adorno, and Baudrillard take this concept and start to apply it to images. DeBord writes how mass media is a relationship between people mediated through images. Baudrillard takes that concept then dives into how images eventually become completely decoupled from what they are meant to signify in reality. And anyone who has spent any time on the internet can quickly see how much of it has gotten decoupled from reality while organizing how people relate to each other, hence the endless discourse about things like online dating.

Thus, the "rediscovering how your great grandparents did things" aspect of ERE is a lot more powerful than it looks. When you avoid living through images and commodities, you end up more fully connected to the world and people around you because you're having a direct relationship rather than a relationship mediated through something abstract and impersonal. It gives you as an individual a lot more power and helps overcome the alienation of the postmodern era.

[7Wannabe5]

I found the section at 07.01, "Adulthood and Preparing the Grounds for the 22nd Century", inclusive of the twitter link, especially intriguing.

Adulting101: Education. Move out. Get a job. Pay the bills
Adulting201: Save and invest to become FI
Adulting301: Learn to rely on yourself, not the economy.
Adulting401: Find others pursuing similar goals with other means.
Adulting501: Prepare the ground for the 22nd century.

Obviously, there is a stage of life prior to the commencement of formal Education which is known as Infancy (approximately age 0 to 6.) The most primitive human tribe still in existence, tosses children out to survive on their own at age 3. The most advanced societies currently in existence, such as Scandanavia (or Madison, WI), allow for the Education/Move Out phase to stretch out as far as around age 30. The progression towards Adulthood is not just a matter of an individual making linear climb. It's, obviously, also cyclic as those Adults who are in the role of Grown-Up in the Room hand out fish, pass down fishing poles, instructions for the construction of fishing poles, instructions for creating the instructions for the construction of fishing poles, etc.

I am currently living in an apartment all by myself for the first time in my life at the age of 57. It kind of seems like a wasteful luxury. I recently took part in a conversation about the housing situation in the U.S. and why boarding houses no longer exist. The suggestion was made that I would be good at the job of running a boarding house My point here being that our society is currently not doing a very good job in the cycle, or providing a wide variety of options, for helping young people with the Move Out step. So, it might be better, more efficient, to move "Move Out" further along in the process?

Thus, the "rediscovering how your great grandparents did things" aspect of ERE is a lot more powerful than it looks.

Unless your great-grandparent, like one of mine who was born in 1870, was a fairly affluent urban-dwelling salaryman in which case, rather than owning/operating a programmable clothes dryer, he likely had a maid, managed by his homemaker wife, who hung out the laundry to dry for him, as well as a female secretary at work to take care of other routine tasks (and have an affair with- true story- divorced my great-grandmother to marry her.)

With higher specialization, the social and productive life-world of humanity splits into two distinct spheres where the domestic sphere ends up in a more precarious situation, as it increasingly relies on the resources provided from the public sphere. Basically, women end up in need of more outside assistance, and men are the ones to give them that. As such, men gain the upper hand: if a man leaves his wife and children, the family risks starvation, but the man himself, however, does not rely on his wife for his immediate survival. Under the new conditions, one could no longer just gather what one needed from nature, but relied entirely on agricultural products. And since that was provided by the public sphere that men came to dominate, women ended up in an unequal power relation of dependence towards the men. This circumstance, sometimes referred to as "patriarchy", would remain unshaken until the later industrial age. Assisted by modern inventions such as birth control, electrical household appliances, and ready-made food products, along with the circumstance that the men's superior physical strength no longer mattered, women could gradually gain access to the public sphere and thereby retain a more equal status- a process that is yet to reach completion.

- "The World We Create: From God to Market- Tomas Bjorkman

What are some of the modern "inventions" (widely defined) that women in particular need to ensure their continued adult autonomy? Going back to Adulthood 101, I think of one of my recently immigrated female Muslim students who had to stand up to her father in order to be allowed to continue her education beyond the high school level.

[chenda]

What are some of the modern "inventions" (widely defined) that women in particular need to ensure their continued adult autonomy?

Reproductive rights.

I wonder if modern society would work better with a > female to male ratio. Less crime and violence for one thing.

[7Wannabe5]

I wonder if modern society would work better with a > female to male ratio. Less crime and violence for one thing.

Personally, I prefer a 50/50 mix. Men are more violent on average, but they have other compensating qualities.

Also, I'm not sure that I entirely buy the notion that the emergence of patriarchy is tied to the invention of agriculture with the literal bread-winner becoming the one who can best brute handle a plow. But, if this is the case, it might be wise to consider the possibility of the re-emergence of patriarchy in a lower-energy-back-to-the-past future. And, I must admit that I've had some experiences in my low-energy life-style experiments that have lended some credence to this theory. However, this may be due to the fact that I am on the low end of "tough" regardless of gender attributes/training. Would I do better if I had a truck, gun, dog, lawyers and levers? Dunno.

[Frita]

I wonder if modern society would work better with a > female to male ratio. Less crime and violence for one thing.

I notice that once the oppressed (or simply one-down) group has the space for dominance, it tends to adopt comparable mindsets and behaviors. It seems to be driven by black-and-white thinking.

Here’s an example:
For the past year I have been attending a yoga class focused on physical rehab for middle-aged women. I learned a lot and enjoyed the group. There was a diverse group of women: cishet, lesbian, and transgender.

One day a woman early in her transition came. The founder was what I perceive to be a jerk, asking if the newcomer was a guy and making shaming comments. This created conflict. There were multiple attempts to resolve this, but it just got uglier.

Basically, the founding leader (who no longer taught the class, three different people took over) decided that since she started the class (and rarely attended), she could verbally and emotionally abuse transgender women who she deems as “too male.” No one else agreed initially. About a third of the gals adopted the founder’s attitude. About a third of us were banned from the class. (I truly thought there could be a peaceful resolution until I learned I was kicked out.)

The same power and control dynamics started with the new group. I now just do my yoga by myself, am grateful to have learned how to better care for my aging body, and am trying to be mindful of who I choose to spend time with and how I show up in the world.

[chenda]

That sounds horrendous. Similarly when I worked in a female only team it was an estrogen fuelled nightmare, which only resolved itself once some men joined the team and a healthier dynamic was created. And admittedly when I worked in a prison I felt much safer in the men's wings rather than in the women's wing.

[guitarplayer]

Hey @Jacob, thanks for the engagement! Still listening, I am 3/5 way through.

Eh, I remember bringing veggies to school and making a potato salad at school, a memorable class that was. Coincidentally, same classroom where we'd learn technical drawing (like drawing cylinders from three perspectives), and IT. Commodore 64 was the first computer at home, I wrote a program in basic, a game about two sheep and a wolf crossing a river one by one the puzzle being to transport them all safely (copied from a magazine). Man, if I had gone that route back then, life would have turned out differently.

[avalok]

As always Jacob these appearances on podcasts are much appreciated. Really enjoyed this one because of its discussions of wider topics.

Man, if I had gone that route back then, life would have turned out differently.

@guitarplayer I'm curious specifically what you mean here: the brief mention in the podcast about the impact of information tech on gen Z and later resonated with me; I grew up as the PC and internet entered the home and I think the effect this has had on my neurology must be profound, and not in a good way. Jacob mentioned that he can use info tech as a tool; dip in and out of the pond. I would say having that relationship is an ongoing effort for me. In that regard I am glad I am not any younger; the inconvenience of dial-up must have reduced the potential impact somewhat.

[guitarplayer]

@avalok, I mainly meant that had I continued doing coding from such early age and at the time when the Internet was becoming a big thing, I would have been in the right place at the right time! Equivalent to having a modicum of entrepreneurial acumen and / or ability to speak a Western European language in the early 90's Poland for example (missed the boat on this one too, running at playgrounds at the time instead).

I guess as a millenial who grew up in a developing country I perhaps stand somewhere between @jacob and yourself on the spectrum of having the modern hi-tech technology internalized. So still had the neurology stretched out by role playing games in real world and time, walking places barefoot and building models (of airplanes, not statistical ones like now but there has to be a chain or reason there).

Speaking of technologies and somewhat related to the spiritual turn at the end of the talk, I will throw in Foucault here. He might not be very popular on the forum given the type of people attracted by it, but when I first read Technologies of the Self I was impressed by the breadth of exposition. He has to be among the most famous post modern thinkers, yet seems to have something to say.

CONTEXT OF STUDY

My objective for more than twenty-five years has been to sketch out a history of the different ways in our culture that humans develop knowledge about themselves: economics, biology, psychiatry, medicine, and penology. The main point is not to accept this knowledge at face value but to analyze these so-called sciences as very specific “truth games” related to specific techniques that human beings use to understand themselves.

As a context, we must understand that there are four major types of these “technologies,” each a matrix of practical reason: (I) technologies of production, which permit us to produce, transform, or manipulate things; (2) technologies of sign systems, which permit us to use signs, meanings, symbols, or signification; (3) technologies of power, which determine the conduct of individuals and submit them to certain ends or domination, an objectivizing of the subject; (4) technologies of the self, which permit individuals to effect by their own means or with the help of others a certain number of operations on their own bodies and souls, thoughts, conduct, and way of being, so as to transform I themselves in order to attain a certain state of happiness, purity, wisdom, perfection, or immortality.

[Frita]

This was a tight interview. I wonder if the people as products of work has generalized to human-to-human interactions. Why build a friendship/relationship and work through the conflict/challenges when one can pretend to have a friend and/or buy a service/support/companionship?

That sounds horrendous. Similarly when I worked in a female only team it was an estrogen fuelled nightmare, which only resolved itself once some men joined the team and a healthier dynamic was created. And admittedly when I worked in a prison I felt much safer in the men's wings rather than in the women's wing.

Thank you for the validation, Chenda. Having diversity and interdependence are important for healthy groups. Drama certainly can have an addictive quality. I find myself allergic to it while simultaneously tolerating the chaos while doing my own thing. This goes back to what was normalized in my family, which I state out of acceptance and commitment to do something different, not blaming them. I am learning a few lessons rather slowly: 1) What people say and do are often quite different. 2) How people and systems handle conflict is a test of healthiness. 3) My personal boundaries are my responsibility.