Fasting MMG

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Lemur
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Fasting MMG

Post by Lemur »

With the 2022 holiday season wrapping up, I'm betting there are a lot of forum members that are looking to start off the new year by dropping off any holiday weight gain. Why not start the new year off with a fasting challenge? I've seen fasting protocols and discussions pop up quite a bit on this forum over the years such as this one viewtopic.php?t=6950 and there are a lot of anecdotal entries in journals where for the most part there seems to be reported positive effects such as: mental clarity, weight and fat loss, suppression of hunger (which is a miracle on zero calories but does occur during a fat metabolism / ketosis state), reduction in inflammation, help with autoimmune disorders, and even alleviation of chronic pains.

My personal take has usually been that fasting benefits tend to be quite overstated around the internets (I don't believe they're a miracle) and that an individual is better off learning lifelong dietary habits and healthy eating habits to maintain health in the long-run. I also believe that more long-term studies are needed to fully flesh out the human health effects (too many rat studies) and I question the dietary adherence in the long-run...Though this is not to be confused with intermittent fasting (short-term eating windows) which can mostly be stuck to of course. As a matter of fact, anyone who skips morning breakfast has been habitually doing "intermittent fasting."

This doesn't negate the fact that I do believe that fasting can be a powerful tool to use on an occasional basis. Sometimes a short-term boost in a diet (such as complete fasting) can help reset one's taste buds and build stress resilience in a longer-term diet (dealing with feelings of hunger). Confidence is built when one recognizes they won't starve to death after not eating for 24 hours - then the subsequent long-term diet can then be followed with better adherence with dealing with hunger. This seems to be what the pros are recommending as well.

Emerging evidence has been piling up for a while now especially in regards to the benefits of caloric restriction and fasting on anti-aging and fighting most modern metabolic diseases. I've witnessed the paradigm switch over a decade from a recommendation that many small meals should be eaten in a day (don't fast at all!) to the Warrior Diet being the first to claim fasting benefits (it was controversial at the time) and now seeing intermittent fasting (but not total fasting) recommended in the mainstream.

Authorities such as Dr. Valter Longo (Professor of Gerontology and Biological Sciences and Director of the Longevity Institute at the University of Southern California), Dr. David Sinclair (Professor in the Department of Genetics for Biology of Aging Research at Harvard Medical School), Neal Barnard, MD (Professor of Medicine at the George Washington University School of Medicine), and many others are making recommendations that short-term fasting periods can have long lasting health benefits related to the suppression of some cancers, glucose and diabetes control and prevention, fat loss, cognitive benefits, anti-aging, etc. I've wondered myself if doing the occasional 3-5 day fast once or twice a year can destroy any emerging cancer cells through stem cell regeneration & autophagy. There is even some benefits to the gut microbiome...complete fasting 2x a year or so seems to be the human equivalent of an oil change.

The list of benefits really goes on. I recommend Longo's book "The Longevity Diet" for more information but I've also seen Jason Fung's book "The Complete Guide to Fasting" recommended as well. Please feel free to share any other information.

Anyhow lets get to the challenge

The challenge is a complete water fast (no calories) but zero calorie (or close to zero calorie) caffeine sources such as black coffee, green tea, etc. are allowed. Bone broth or an electrolyte source can also be taken if the calories are zero or very low <10. I recommend adding iodine or potassium salt with adequate water intake to deal with feelings of dizziness or a headache from potential electrolyte imbalances.

The majority of the benefit from fasting is coming from the switch in energy metabolism and the low states of insulin and promotion of autophagy; therefore, perfect is not the enemy of the good so no need to beat yourself up if you drink a diet coke or add a zero sugar sweetener to your black coffee (but eating a candy or snatching a few chips or what have you is considered a fail)!

Loosely based on the many podcasts I've listened to and this source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermittent_fasting
Image

I've broken the challenge up into 6 phases for aspiring challengers to break:

[ ] Phase 1: 0-4 hours (Fed State: The burning up of any food sitting in your stomach)
[ ] Phase 2: 4-16 hours (Postabsorptive state: The remaining liver glycogen reserves are used as a fuel source)
[ ] Phase 3: 16-24 hours (Fasted State: The challenging period where your body is using a mix of liver glucose and fatty acids for fuel)
[ ] Phase 4: 24-48 hours (Metabolic Switch: Ketosis and autophagy ramp up and an increase in BDNF supports brain function)
[ ] Phase 5: 48-72 hours (Full blown Ketosis: Suppression of hunger. It is important to monitor energy levels and electrolyte balance at this point)
[ ] Phase 6: 72-120 hours (Edited to add that Chaperone-mediated autophagy occurs here. The fast should be broken with a small meal at 5 days max. Further fasting beyond this point will provide diminishing returns and risk of muscle loss, lack of nutrients, and other negative health effects)

Phase 1 and Phase 2 should be very easy as it can be mostly accomplished by finishing dinner early and taking a long sleep before the next day. So for instance, if you start fasting at evening 9pm, then you should have Phase 1 and Phase 2 complete by the next afternoon at 1pm. The challenge ramps up here if you're not used to hunger and skipping lunch, but 8 hours after that at 9pm again then phase 3 will be complete. Get through the night without snacking and by next morning at 9am (36 hours total), the hardest part of the challenge should be over with. Then its a matter of seeing if you can hang on every 24 hours until 5 full days of fasting is complete.

A few additional tips and points:

1.) Pro-tip: Many anecdotally have reported that the hardest part is usually the first 24 hours - 36 hours before the body switches over to complete ketosis where suppression of hunger and mental clarity begins. So I would say to focus on getting over this hump as a way to remain positive.

2.) From what I've gathered, the benefits of fasting is stated to be exponential up to 5 days so, if you can, challenge yourself for all 5 days ;). The challenge ends at 5 days because after that point there is diminishing returns and potential negative effects from lack of nutrients.

3.) You can certainly take daily multi-vitamins, electrolytes, vitamin d, caffeine and such if you so desire.

4.) A medium to high-intensity workout during the first 16 hours of the fast can help deplete glycogen stores and get a person into a ketosis state faster. Definitely worth considering.

5.) Do a lot of walking in the complete fasted state for additional fat loss.

Last point and a disclaimer - Lemur is not a medical professional and cannot be sued. :lol: I'm personally aiming to complete Phase 5 (I started 9pm on December 28) of this challenge.
Last edited by Lemur on Mon Jan 02, 2023 7:00 am, edited 5 times in total.

OutOfTheBlue
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Re: Fasting MMG

Post by OutOfTheBlue »

OK, I'm game!

I tried a seven day fast back in November, after reading Jason Fung's book upon theanimal's recommendation, Although the book is a bit fluffy, it helps a lot with getting more confident about longer period fasting. The busting of some common misunderstandings, the detailing of the process and the fact that hunger comes in cycles made the reading well worth it. Recommended.

I ended up stopping at four days and a half. The first three days were fine. I even did 5 km runs, although at a slightly slower pace. I think being already on IF/OMAD helped with that. The fourth day was harder. I felt tired, weak, and slept a lot. Didn't exercise. The next day, I vomited (water) after doing a morning run. Decided to stop and redo the experiment later on. Eased back into it by having a soup at lunch. During the fast, I only drank water, sometimes with a pinch of salt, and a magnesium +multi-B supplement.

Also, yeah, the absence of brain fog is not exactly what I call mental clarity! Didn't experience a particularly heightened state, as I expected. Maybe something for the next time.

There is also an ERE story/thinking behind this. We were going to spend a 8-9 days on an island (Thailand), where food costs are typically higher, and I thought it was the perfect time to do this, as potentially more impactful. Discussing this with my SO, I found out she felt it would take away too much from the experience, as some food sampling and sharing is part of the enjoyment. Found a middle ground by starting the fast two days earlier, and stopping (well, intending to stop) at mid-vacations. Once I broke the fast, we just ate out once a day, and made our own meal for dinner or lunch, having also brought some food from home.

Conclusion: "strategic fasting" can make a great addition to the ERE practitioner's arsenal.

This is a bit of short notice. Will try to start with the new year!

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Lemur
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Re: Fasting MMG

Post by Lemur »

Yes! Get your last meals in before the New Year :).
I'm only starting my challenge early because I'm planning an epic feast on New Years.

Regarding mental clarity - this is something I've seen anecdotally mentioned quite before. I too have noticed an increased focused when I follow an intermittent eating type schedule. I read this years ago and I wish I could find the paper, but from what I remember is that those who've been previously keto-adapted (as in they completed the metabolic switch not necessarily through fasting but a ketogenic diet) and they held that state for at least 3 weeks, seem to have created a permanent memory among the brain / nervous system to remember this switch. Making future ketogenetic / fasting states easier to get into.
As ketosis develops, most tissues which can use ketones for fuel will stop using them to a significant degree by the third week. This decrease in ketone utilization occurs due to a down regulation of the enzymes responsible for ketone use and occurs in all tissues except the brain (7). After three weeks, most tissues will meet their energy requirements almost exclusively through the breakdown of FFA. This is thought to be an adaptation to ensure adequate ketone levels for the brain." -The Ketogenic Diet by Lyle McDonald
This is the closest I can find. In other words, anyone who has done a ketogenic diet or short-term fasts before, are going to find this challenge easier to those embarking on fasting for >24 hours the first time. Practice makes perfect like with all things.

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unemployable
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Re: Fasting MMG

Post by unemployable »

I've done OMAD (one meal a day) regimes twice in recent years. Both times were over several months and usually I threw in an all-day fast on Fridays, so that once a week I would effectively do a 48. I lost 55-60 pounds on both fasts and got in good enough shape to knock off some hikes I had always waned to do, then sat around and ate whatever I wanted and eventually gained the weight back.

So I know it works but I just don't care enough to keep the weight off.

During the OMAD regimes I also walked some 20-30k steps/day. Forty thousand steps was not uncommon, and I had a dayhike this summer that was over 60k. This was easy around my mom's neighborhood in winter. I'm nomadic now so finding these opportunities will be harder. Also with traveling more it's harder to get on a consistent eating regime, but the other side of this coin is it should be theoretically easier to simply not eat at all.

So I'm not sure what my plan will be going into 2023. I want to lose the weight, but don't have the mechanisms for discipline I've had in previous years, and also don't have any firm hiking goals for this summer — nothing to motivate beyond weight loss itself.

I will say that Day 3 of OMAD was the hardest for me. Once I got beyond the third day it got much easier. It helps immensely to have something to distract you or to be away from food. For me, that can be simply a long walk.
Lemur wrote:
Thu Dec 29, 2022 6:04 pm
My personal take has usually been that fasting benefits tend to be quite overstated around the internets
Autophagy for one has been pretty well researched. And when everyone on your dad's side dies from cancer at age 78...

Divandan
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Re: Fasting MMG

Post by Divandan »

Funny but I started fasting again in Mid-December for 10 days and then relaxed a bit for the holidays. What I am doing is just having my last meal at 7:30/8 and then not eating until lunch the next day. No issues with this and honestly my sleep feels a bit deeper when I do this. I usually do this for 5 days so Sunday night until Friday for lunch and then do not bother with it during the weekend.

I was doing OMAD right before COVID and had no issues (probably because of prior IF fasting experience). I would just have a super big lunch at work and then not eat until the next day for lunch again but I noticed that my sleep was not as good as the fasting mentioned above.

One of the main reasons I gained a fair amount of weight with COVID is working from home and being around snacks all the time and eating pretty much until bed time.

It has been good to get back into the fasting regime and will continue this 16-18 hour fast five days a week in the new year. The longest fast I did was just a little over 24 hours but I am definitely intrigued by the health effects of a longer fast. Perhaps a three day fast done quarterly may be of some benefit.

ertyu
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Re: Fasting MMG

Post by ertyu »

For anyone having fat loss as one of their fasting goals: remember the wight is lost after the fast

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Lemur
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Re: Fasting MMG

Post by Lemur »

36 hours in. Not bad. Had a bit trouble sleeping last night but don't even feel hungry this morning. Black coffee sure is nice.

@ertyu

Care to elaborate? Because anabolism (the synthesis of muscle and fat tissue to transport excess energy) and catabolism (the breakdown of muscle or fat tissue for ATP respectively) is a 24/7 process to maintain metabolism...and these systems occur in one degree or another at all times given current energy availability to maintain blood glucose levels (and other homeostatic processes). In other words, if you don't consume glucose, your body will break it down somewhere (usually your fat stores and sometimes a little from muscle) for energy. The breakdown of fat goes through a continual mobilization --> transportation --> oxidation process. In other words, fatty acids are mobilized out of the fat cell, transported to where they're needed, and then burned for energy through ATP. So it doesn't make any sense that fat loss would only occur after a fast. If anything, fat loss will be exponential for the first few days of a fast and then level out and diminish as metabolism slows down to conserve energy.

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Lemur
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Re: Fasting MMG

Post by Lemur »

Also worth sharing how fasting improves brain function:
Cycles of IMS (Intermittent metabolic switching) may optimize brain health by promoting synaptic plasticity and neurogenesis, improving cognition, mood, motor performance and autonomic nervous system (ANS) function and bolstering resistance of neurons to injury and neurodegenerative disease. SIRT, NAD-dependent protein deacetylase sirtuin.
Intermittent metabolic switching, neuroplasticity and brain health
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5913738/

This paper is quite the treasure trove of diagrams and glossary / references such as this one:

Image

Decreased mTOR signaling pathway seems to be something the anti-aging researchers are keen on researching more in Humans - I know this is something that Valter Longo has mentioned before as well.
The mTOR pathway has now been linked to lifespan and health span in several major model organisms and species. For instance, reduced mTOR signaling through genetic or pharmacological interventions leads to lifespan extension in yeast, worms, flies, and mice (Johnson et al., 2013, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23325216/), and studies are currently being conducted in primates and humans. Thus, mTOR signaling is a major candidate for targeted interventions.

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Re: Fasting MMG

Post by Slevin »

Lemur wrote:
Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:46 am
Also worth sharing how fasting improves brain function:



Intermittent metabolic switching, neuroplasticity and brain health
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5913738/
I’m a big fan of fasting. I do 14-16 hours a day every day, and some longer ones every once in a while (though I’ve been a bit traumatized about doing longer ones lately since I ended up shitting myself on day 3 of the last one I did due to ??? and it made me feel disturbed and disgusted).

Earlier this year a high quality study dropped on IF, which basically concluding that IF works through calorie restriction. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2114833 . For reasons beyond my understanding, this generated a lot of argumentation. Who cares if IF is just a form of calorie restriction that works very well for some people? That’s kinda what everyone wanted from it.

I’m disturbed by a few things in this paper that you linked, firstly that it looks like it is just blatantly invoking correlation / causation fallacy right there in the paper.
The increase in autism tracks remarkably closely with the increase in childhood overweight or obesity during the same time period (data from autismspeaks.org and the US Centers for Disease Control), suggesting a causal link between lack of metabolic switching and autistic behaviours. In support of the latter possibility are data showing that nearly twice as many children diagnosed with ASD are overweight or obese as control children170.
Two, it seems to consistently cite studies about mice, then talk about mechanistic explanations as if that’s a guaranteed thing in humans. Which like, yeah that means it’s a better than wild supposition but mice studies don’t replicate to humans very often. So testing on mice is a “valid” part of medicine in being a precursor to human studies, but you can’t just take a result specific to a mouse study and then generalize as if it is also true for humans and say the implications for that must also be true without a lot of studies and process in the middle. To make those claims you need to do a lot of work on humans and human trials.

Side note: how do you do blind randomized controlled trials for fasting? Give half the people “fake food” that has no caloric value? This seems like the same sort of fun issues as meditation studies/ etc where there isn’t a good way to not allow the participants know if they received the treatment or not.

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Lemur
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Re: Fasting MMG

Post by Lemur »

@Slevin

Yeah this seems to be a big problem in nutrition studies generally due to so many confounding variables and vested interests in certain studies. Its the cause of so many "diet wars." Measurements are often extremely unreliable (such as using "reported" food intakes) and unless you've humans literally locked up in metabolic wards for lengthy periods of times, it is difficult to really isolate what the researchers are looking for. And very expensive.

Also I agree with the general statement that the majority of benefits from IF are through caloric restriction. Its why when usually someone asks "what is the best diet" the real answer should be "the one that you can stick to." (IOW - the one that gives you personally a caloric deficit and you can sustain for a long time to see results). Read around enough and you will see all sorts of silly things and tribal warfare's over which diet is better and which isn't.

Professor Mark Haub of nutrition at Kansas State University once demonstrated a 27lb weight/fat loss by doing a diet of junk food...mostly Twinkies. https://conciergemedicinemd.com/the-twinkie-diet/

The point was this:
Professor Haub ate Twinkies, Little Debbie snacks and other sugary fare every three hours, instead of eating meals. To add variety to his dessert regimen, he also chowed-down on Doritos, sugary cereals and Oreos. Despite eating mostly junk food, (plus one protein shake per day), he limited his intake to 1800 calories per day, about 800 calories less than necessary to maintain the body weight of a man his size.

Interestingly, his body fat and cholesterol dropped after this diet, despite eating tons of fat and sugar. In other words, eating sugar and fat does not raise your cholesterol, provided that you are on a low-calorie diet and that you drop body fat. We see similar findings in people who lose weight on the Atkins’ Diet. Their cholesterol levels improve, even though they eat a diet very high in animal fat. This is because being overweight raises cholesterol.

Not surprisingly, Haub showed what all doctors and scientists already know: Weight loss really is about the number of calories that you consume, not the composition of those calories.
Now can someone maintain the Twinkie diet? Oh probably not they would likely feel horrible after a while lol. But the point is clear that for decades now, perhaps over a century, we know what causes weight and fat loss - and that this caloric deficit also leads to other positive metabolic effects.

The real question is why are humans so poor from a behavioral perspective to keep this weight off? Why are eating and dietary habits so hard to sustain? This to me is what is most interesting.

Its oversimplified but there is something to the idea of a bodyweight setpoint (some scientists believe it is more like a "settling point") and one of the main hormones involved in bodyweight regulation is Leptin which "serves as a gauge for energy reserves and directs the central nervous system to adjust food intake and energy expenditure accordingly." In other words, when someone loses weight, this signal from Leptin deficiency is always turned "on" to pressure the individual to put this weight back on eventually. And this signal never (well I don't want to say never ... I don't believe this is confirmed) turns itself off until Leptin levels are restored by gaining back to your previous weight. Anyone who has lost a lot of weight and has mostly kept it off might report the phenomenon of always feeling "slightly hungry" and never truly full / satiated after a meal.

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Re: Fasting MMG

Post by Bicycle7 »

It's interesting to read through this thread and see some cool research summarized and cited. I haven't gotten much into the research though over the past couple years I have gone from eating 3 or more meals a day to 2 and then in the past couple months or so to just dinner in the evening. This seems to work the best for me right now. As other people say, it's liberating to only have to plan for a single meal.

The last couple months I have also done I think 4 40-45 hour fasts, I'm looking forward to trying longer ones. I like exploring the states of mind, clarity and focus I feel from fasting.

The question you bring up Lemur is a good one. It makes me think about the amount of self-control/discipline needed to sustain some type of habit. I read a book about mindful eating that really helped me bring more awareness to my relationship with food. OMAD and mindful eating (partly eating slowly and listening to feelings of satiety in my body) have helped me a lot.

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Re: Fasting MMG

Post by ducknald_don »

Lemur wrote:
Fri Dec 30, 2022 12:35 pm
Also I agree with the general statement that the majority of benefits from IF are through caloric restriction.
I was under the impression that recent research shows the causation was the other way. Because those poor mice ate everything as soon as it was presented to them they were eating during a reduced window. It was that intermittent fasting that extended their longevity rather than the lower calories.

I think I saw this in the Dr David Sinclair video that was linked from here recently.

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Lemur
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Re: Fasting MMG

Post by Lemur »

@ducknald_don

There is a lot of overlap between calorie restriction alone and intermittent fasting (with calorie restriction). Though the latter is likely associated with even more of a reduction in insulin levels and the use of fat metabolism vs glucose metabolism.

That is certainly a question worth exploring further. Does the latter (fasting) have more benefits then CR alone?

If I come across anything, I’ll definitely share it. I’m familiar with David Sinclair but haven’t read his book yet. If anyone can find that video that would be an interesting listen.

I’m 62 hours in as of this morning. So that is a record for me. My fast will be broken today.

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Re: Fasting MMG

Post by ducknald_don »

@Lemur The video is at https://youtu.be/wD8reCw3Kls

OutOfTheBlue
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Re: Fasting MMG

Post by OutOfTheBlue »

Started fasting at 7pm on December 31, 2022, shooting for 96-108 hrs (till Wednesday 4, evening or Thursday 5, morning).

@Lemur, well done! And thanks for the motivation with this thread. How do you feel, how was it?

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Lemur
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Re: Fasting MMG

Post by Lemur »

@ducknald_don

Thanks for finding that! When I get a chance, I’ll watch and take some notes and share anything I found interesting.

@Outoftheblue

It was an overall good experience. I postulated that the hardest part was getting through the first 36 hours but this was not my experience. I was ravenously hungry for some reason around the 42 hour mark (3pm yesterday) up until I pretty much went to sleep. And then I was incredibly fatigued which caused me to sleep about 12 hours. When I woke up this morning, I still felt rather lethargic and I didn’t move much. The biggest surprise was when I did break the fast (with saltine crackers and pedialyte for electrolytes) I was full really quickly when it ate my first meal and I couldn’t eat much and had to take my time. Other then that I normalized quickly after eating and feel good now.

So to summarize: Started fast at 9pm on December 28. December 29 was not too bad as I was determined to stay fasted. Woke up December 30 and didn’t feel hungry in the morning but starting at 3pm or so I started getting real hungry and felt fatigued. I just languished on my couch and watched a show about Japanese Ramen Noodles…I was getting fixated on food. Slept forever and then broke fast at around 12pm today.

I did experience the increased clarity and focus on Friday despite the hunger so that was cool. I estimate that I burned about 1.5lbs of fat and any other weight loss was glycogen and water.

I definitely want to keep learning about fasting and figure out a protocol for this. For anyone that read my journal this year, I lost 35lbs and have been proud to keep it off and keep myself in a 165-170lb range (real healthy BMI for my height). The only issue is that I push the limits on this range a lot and have to keep meticulously tracking calories which I am getting tired of doing having done this for a year now. So what I am thinking of doing now is something like a “Fast Friday” once a week and as long as I stick to my normal WFPB diet, then I should be able to maintain this range rather easily. On the other days, it might be worth exploring the 16:8 window that has become popular. I’m becoming a believer in this…if the game is controlling calories, then this fasting stuff seems to be a powerful tool as long as you don’t binge the other days. It’s also really really convenient to have a day where you don’t have to plan meals or anything.

Some other thoughts

A 48 hour fast seems achievable to perform once a week or every other week. And you’ll hit the BNDF increases in that time frame. You eat your last bite of food Thursday at 6pm or so. Fast all day Friday. And then break the fast at 6pm on a Saturday (effectively doing OMAD on that day).
The BDNF gene provides instructions for making a protein found in the brain and spinal cord called brain-derived neurotrophic factor. This protein promotes the survival of nerve cells (neurons) by playing a role in the growth, maturation (differentiation), and maintenance of these cells. In the brain, the BDNF protein is active at the connections between nerve cells (synapses), where cell-to-cell communication occurs. The synapses can change and adapt over time in response to experience, a characteristic called synaptic plasticity. The BDNF protein helps regulate synaptic plasticity, which is important for learning and memory. https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/gene/bdnf/
Brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) gene expression was measured in human skeletal muscle following 3 intensities of exercise and a 48-h fast. No change in BDNF mRNA was observed following exercise, while fasting upregulated BDNF by ∼ 3.5-fold. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25494871/
And adding one more video to the list I want to watch. This one is from Andrew Huberman:
Effects of Fasting & Time Restricted Eating on Fat Loss & Health | Huberman Lab Podcast #41
https://youtu.be/9tRohh0gErM

OutOfTheBlue
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Re: Fasting MMG

Post by OutOfTheBlue »

What intermittent fasting and now prolonged fasting did for me was to help question everyday assumptions, increase possibilities, and adopt a more holistic approach to nutrition and health.

It is crazy how many such assumptions are built on sand. Once you are freed from the stupid, unchallenged notion that you *have* to have three meals a day (and especially, of all things, have milk with cereals for breakfast), or else, and from the tendency to just go with the flow, a world of possibilities opens. What other assumption tackle next?

The healthy nutrition partition is not only made by notes (food consumption), but also by silence (fasting) and understanding the interplay helps play richer tunes, make better choices. It is not only about what you eat. Fasting can be beneficial beyond weight loss/regulation, and it's free. The sense of self-control is also liberating.

Also, focussing on calories alone makes for a top down approach that is akin to budgetting. Not all calories are created equal, and nutrition is more than that. Why not trust the regained sense of natural hunger once freed from overstimulation and overprocessed stuff?

Following an OMAD or a small eating-window Warrior Diet was a breakthrough for me in discovering that hunger is actually increased by over-frequent (predominantly carb-based) eating, and better regulated by allowing for longer under-eating or fasting windows. When working from home with instant access to food, you can teach yourself to just refrain from eating during work, instead of snacking or indulging in a meal or two that leave you more tired and less focussed/productive.

I'm new to periodic longer fasts, but the world opens yet again.

For instance, as I said before, strategic fasting when going downtown, traveling, hiking or vacationing gives new options, with the added benefit of bringing overall food costs down.

This is becoming an essential ingredient for my strategy.

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Lemur
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Re: Fasting MMG

Post by Lemur »

@ducknald_don

I finally watched this video you linked. Thanks again. They get right into it the advice that eating less often is the harbinger of many health benefits and not necessarily eating less calories, though eating less calories and ending up with a subsequent lower body fat tends to be a side effect of intermittent fasting.

The non-eating period itself produces these longevity effects in our bodies that protect against aging and diseases. There is certainly some overlap with caloric restriction providing some of the same health benefits; however, with all things being equal, person A eating 2500 calories a day across a few meals and snacks is not deriving the same increased longevity benefits and disease protections as person B packing their 2500 calories in one meal.

This is interesting! But it makes sense. Person B is living in a longer state of fat metabolism, periods of autophagy activation, decreased mTor activation, and importantly they're living longer in more periods of a lower insulin state and they're not spiking their blood sugars as much as someone eating more frequently.

I took some other notes watching this video but I'm mostly going to rehash one of the YouTube comments as their notes were similar to mine:
Main takeaways from the video:
1- Eat less often.
2- Avoid sugary drinks and foods.
3- Reduce meat intake for longevity.
4- Its never too late for dietary changes.
5- Find veggies that have been stressed out (organic, colorful veggies)
6- Never start a meal with sugars, if you do eat them at last (desert).

EAT LESS OFTEN

-There is a genetic pathway that gets triggered by low energy. These genes (sirtuins) respond to low energy states (low glucose levels-caloric restriction), high heat, low amino acids, high salt (stressors). ----- They take care of the DNA repair and the stabilization of the epigenome.

-When the body is hungry, the body makes Nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD - this is the fuel for the sirtuins and a chemical involved in the production of hundreds of metabolic processes that supports healthy aging and mitochondrial health).

Longevity Genes:

Mtor: A protein that registers amino acids. mTORC1 is activated by IGF-I/insulin, mechanical stimulation and amino acids. Not a recipe for longevity as Mtor inhibits autophagy. mTOR is known for promoting anabolic metabolism. "Therefore, the regulation of autophagy with mTOR inhibitors provides a new therapeutic strategy for a variety of diseases, including neurodegenerative diseases, diabetes, and cancer." More info for anyone who wants to really dig into the pathway: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4382265/

Ampk: Goes up when hungry. Makes more mitochondria (important for making energy). AMPK has been shown to activate SIRT1 (Sirtuins). Sirtuins are a type of protein involved in regulating cellular processes including the aging and death of cells and their resistance to stress. Sirtuins play a vital role in sustaining genome integrity. They take part in maintaining normal chromatin condensation state, in DNA damage response and repair, modulate oxidative stress and energy metabolism. Sirtuins can be activated by increasing NAD+ through NMN supplementation, caloric restriction, exercise, and fasting.

Fasting:
- Metformin: mimics fasting.
- Time Restricted Feeding: At least 16 hours.
- Liver compensates for the lack of food and adapts over time through glucoseneogenesis. This process helps overcome the feeling of hunger (reduces Ghrelin spikes). In other words, the liver starts producing glucose at a steady level.

Sugar: Not debtable that added sugar is not good for you and should be avoided. Sugar spikes glucose and is not nutritious while providing unneeded calories. Glucose shut down sirtuins and ampk (defenses against diseases and aging shut down). Fructose can also be pernicious when overconsumed.

Protein: We should avoid high protein red meat diet for longevity. It activates mtor.

Amino acids: Three important ones worth mentioning are Leucine, Isoleucine, and Valine (Known as the BCAAs). Mtor activates when you ingest these. Mtor repairs and build muscle. In the short run, this is good for building muscle etc. But in the long run, mtor is the responsible inhibiting autophagy, which is key to longevity. These amino acids are found naturally in lower quantities in plant proteins

Plant based diets: the more vegetarian you are, the longer you live. The best, Okinawa diet, is plant base diet with fish - (probably because of Essential fatty acids)

Humans grew COLD and HUNGRY. Now we live at warm houses with food available all the time. Resilience against aging and disease comes with the former.
So the best way to fast? Well...as with all good habit formation, start with the one that you can stick to. At minimum, 16:8 is needed to derive benefits (16 hours fasted, 8 hours of feeding window) though David Sinclair believes 24 hours is optimal (OMAD). And as established previously, even longer fasting periods will provide more benefits but this one will be tougher to be habit forming so it may be best to deal these on an occasional basis. Greater than 3 days of fasting was mentioned by David Sinclair as something that can trigger deeper autophagy known as Chaperone-mediated autophagy.

I just did a quick Google and haven't read yet but found this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6257056/

It is interesting to me how David mostly follows a vegetarian diet but has been leaning more and more towards full-vegan (dropping eggs and dairy from his current eating regime). That seems to line up with my own understandings of eating for optimal health. He stated that the Mediterranean diet probably gives you the "most bang for you buck."
Last edited by Lemur on Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:28 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Lemur
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Re: Fasting MMG

Post by Lemur »

@OutOfTheBlue

Still going strong?

I love this interplay mentioned between ERE and fasting. There is a lot of potential for flexibility here. One of the thoughts I had on my long fast was recognizing that its okay to have these feelings of hunger. I am looking at that feeling a bit more positively and not as a problem that needs to be solved right away. The hunger I experienced on my long fast sort of came in waves. I'd just drink some water, walk, and distract myself and it would mostly go away.

Admittingly, I've had an over focus on calories. Mainly because that is how I dropped my 35lbs last year was through meticulous tracking. The clear measurement made it easy to build a habit, form goals, and stick to them. Looking back now, I had to have some serious willpower at times to stay on track. I don't like relying on willpower alone - doesn't make for a great system. And like mentioned, I've come to believe this behavior its almost borderline neurotic. Fasting is a new tool I'm learning how to use. For the month of January, I've a daily weigh-in checklist on my refrigerator. The goal is to regulate my 165-170lb target range without calorie tracking, but with intermittent fasting + eating for optimal health.

So what I'm doing now is 16:8 on the weekends but I'm also going to push this when I'm up for it during the work week (for instance like 17:7...18:6...etc. maybe some days true OMAD). I'll also thinking about adding in some longer fasts occasionally. I'm thinking still through this and debating how often I should do the longer fasts. I keep reflecting on my long fast experience - It was a time of great clarity.

I'm going to deliberately set my eating window between 12 PM and 8 PM. This will ensure an 8 hour max eating window and enough non-eating before bed time which I think is also optimal for sleep. Adding just another source to read/listen is Matthew Walker on Fasting & Sleep: https://peterattiamd.com/how-fasting-can-impact-sleep/ .
Last edited by Lemur on Tue Jan 03, 2023 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ducknald_don
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Re: Fasting MMG

Post by ducknald_don »

Lemur wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:11 am
It is interesting to me how David mostly follows a vegetarian diet but has been leaning more and more towards full-vegan (dropping eggs and dairy from his current eating regime). That seems to line up with my own understandings of eating for optimal health. He stated that the Mediterranean diet probably gives you the "most bang for you buck."
It feels like you are probably getting into diminishing returns at this point. The benefits from eliminating sugar and reducing your eating window are huge, the benefits from dropping eggs are small (possibly non-existent).

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