Early Retirement Extreme Forums

Do any forumites do this ? For me it's always been my default relationship preference. I couldn't live permanently with a SO, I need my own space. I'm very introverted and need to spend time alone to recharge.

I’ve imagined before that many Native American Iroquois who left their tribes (temporarily) to pursue vision quests did so because they were introverts that just wanted an excuse to not be around so many damn people lol.

I wonder if this preference influences work like Navy submarines, long-haul truckers, airline flight crew, etc. It seems like a plausible excuse to have significant time away from each other. If it works for both parters, happy days. (It’s my understanding that some of these professions have higher than average divorce rates. An older relative is a commercial pilot who took six attempts to find a spouse who doesn’t mind the separation and enjoys the freedom.)

This was also my preference, at least until recently.

I actually tried this for several years with my previous relationship, after giving co-living a go (and failing at it) for the first two years.

On hindsight, this probably made it workable for longer, but that was not necessarily a good thing: we probably should've gone our separate ways sooner. Living apart together made more tolerable dynamics that were not conducive in the long run, even if the connection and good intentions were there… At least we tried.

The above example is not ground to dismiss such a model. I still think highly of it. Whatever works best between people. Cost-efficiency comes second.

However, it can sort of hide underlying issues (who doesn't have any?) that could be best worked on at an individual and interpersonal level.

In my mind, this "requires" at least two fairly functional, open-minded and independent adults, who do it both for preserving their own space and for helping their relationship find a "space" of its its own and grow. If it is only for "me" reasons, then it can create a kind of imbalance.

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@Lemur, the Iroquois example made me think of Bill Plotkin. Maybe it was not an introverted excuse for alone time, and they were just healthy adolescent members of an ecocentric society, feeling compelled to pursue vision quests during the Cocoon stage of human development? Ha!

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GEORGE BRASSENS

The best example I know is that of the famous non-conformist French singer/song-writer George Brassens and his lifelong (like for more than 30 years) muse and fiancée, Joha Heiman, or Püppchen, little doll, as he affectionately called her, They remained childless, never married, and always lived together under separate roofs.

He wrote for her one of the best love songs I know, "La non-demande en mariage" (The non-marriage proposal).

English translations found online being not satisfactory, here is a home-cooked one:

George Brassens - La non-demande en mariage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCxWiAFmjgY

THE NON-MARRIAGE PROPOSAL

My dear, by grace, let's not put
under Cupid's throat
His own arrow
So many lovers who have tried it
Have paid with their happiness
For this sacrilege…

I have the honor not to ask for your hand
Let's not put our names on a parchment

Let's give a free pass to the bird
We'll both be prisoners
On parole*
To hell with housewives
Who lead hearts by the handles
Of their pots

I have the honor not to ask for your hand
Let's not sign our names on a parchment

Venus often gets old
She's at loss in front
Of the stove
For nothing in the world do I want
To play the daisy game
Over the stewpot

Melusine* loses her charms
If one reveals too much of
Her secrets
The ink of love letters fades
Quickly when folded between
Cookbook pages

It may seem harmless
To preserve
In a jar
The lovely forbidden apple
But once cooked, it has lost
Its natural taste

I have no need of a maid
And I free you from any household
Chores
May I always think of you
As my eternal fiancée
The lady of my heart

I have the honor not to ask for your hand
Let's not sign our names on a parchment

*Here, "parole" also means "oral promise". Interestingly, in English, parol without the "e" = a verbal agreement, or a written one that is not official
* Melusine - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melusine. Figure of European folklore, a female spirit of fresh water in a holy well or river. In one of the French folktale versions, she married Guy de Lusignan, Count of Poitou, under condition that he should never attempt to intrude upon her privacy.

It happened to DW and I by happenstance; we had two abodes in two different houses in one village for over four years until recently. Like many other things, we have approached it organically. It was good to have a separate space when one of us needed space for one reason or another, also when things happened, for example a boiler in one house broke, we had the option to hang out in the other house. Sometimes we would not see each other for a few days in a row when we were busy studying and such.

I think from the finance point of view this arrangement is almost always more expensive on the 'household' level.

Now we rent a small flat together and are equally happy, other things being equal. It is good to know that it is possible to have the other living arrangement though.

For recharging, we just respect that we are both on the introvert side and sometimes not speak to each other despite being 2m away from each other, and this is okay.

When I really need to manually push myself to focus on something and I get distracted with minor human activities of DW in the surroundings, I listen to rain on my headphones on youtube or pop in earplugs which gives me this surreal feeling of living in a movie.

When I first met DGF, we were both very much onboard with something like LAT. We are both very independent and had our own households that allowed us to exert control over our own domains. We still have separate households due to long distance, however after some experimentation we are now onboard with cohabiting when our lifestyles allow it. It was a bit of trial by fire when I stayed with her for a monthlong work trip, but it forced us to figure out what works for us after some initial bumps. We both figured that if we couldn't solve the cohabitation puzzle then that doesn't bode well for our long-term relationship compatibility. We actually get less sick of each other when living together than when traveling, because the infrastructure is there at home to allow us to retreat into our "zones" when needed.

As others have indicated, I think it will take both partners having the right temperament/personality/maturity to successfully cohabitate. For example, if one partner is offended that the other partner just wants to sit quietly and do X alone rather than spending every waking minute together, things are probably not going to work out. There has to be some mutual understanding for what the domestic life will look like. Similarly, if one partner wants to have total control over aspect of life, the other partner is likely to find that oppressive. I think a common compromise that DGF and I also utilize is to give each partner space to have their own domain to rule over, whether that's a workshop, man cave, office, garden, etc. The ERE challenge is figuring out how to do that while minimizing environmental/economic cost. I'm interested in how others on here have solved this problem with small living spaces because the default in society seems to just be occupy a 3 BR house with 2 people and live on opposite wings. I think Holmgren in his works talks about how to provide autonomy in cohabitating living situations. Noise insulation can be important.

My perspective is that as people get older they get more rigid and less willing to share with others. I don't think this is necessarily a good thing and can atrophy important interpersonal skills, but also I understand that a lot of humans just suck. Right now I live in a house with 4 roommates but have my own bedroom and bathroom. It's a house full of introvert academics, so fits my lifestyle quite well right now. Basically my roommates and I just spend most of our time quietly in our rooms, with occasional social interaction in common areas. In college I lived in a house with a bunch of extroverts, which was fun at times (weekends) but also meant things were often noisy when I wanted quiet.

I often joke that we would have got divorced a long time ago if not for our 8 acres of land and the ridiculously large house.
The main disadvantage I see with living in separate places is cost/redundancy. Keeping up two residences and equipping them with stuff and appliances seems needlessly complicated to me, but perhaps I would see this different if I was stuffed into an apartment with my family.
It would probably be more cost-effective to work out routines or schedules so that everyone gets their alone-time?

Frita wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:24 pm

I wonder if this preference influences work like Navy submarines, long-haul truckers, airline flight crew, etc. It seems like a plausible excuse to have significant time away from each other. If it works for both parters, happy days. (It’s my understanding that some of these professions have higher than average divorce rates. An older relative is a commercial pilot who took six attempts to find a spouse who doesn’t mind the separation and enjoys the freedom.)

I'm reminded of all the various vehicle and wilderness camping channels on Youtube. Many of the creators are married and some even have children, yet they will still go solo camping on a weekly basis for their videos. Could be a similar situation.

white belt wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:20 pm

I'm reminded of all the various vehicle and wilderness camping channels on Youtube. Many of the creators are married and some even have children, yet they will still go solo camping on a weekly basis for their videos. Could be a similar situation.

It seems that is more less extreme than a full-time traveling gig.

This thread prompted some reflection. When my kids were babies/toddlers/preschoolers, my spouse sure traveled more for work. (He does admit not liking younger kids.). Perhaps it was voluntary. I did learn that not being a single parent was the right choice for me as it was lonely and exhausting.

Just stumbled across this: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/10/styl ... ide_recirc

Lemur wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:44 pm

I’ve imagined before that many Native American Iroquois who left their tribes (temporarily) to pursue vision quests did so because they were introverts that just wanted an excuse to not be around so many damn people lol

haha, yes I wonder why introverts exist in such large numbers given we are supposed to have evolved in large hunter-gatherer groups where privacy and alone time must have been mostly non-existent.

I think its true though that it can make struggling relationships last longer than they should, although it makes the end much easier.

chenda wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:26 pm

[...]I couldn't live permanently with a SO, I need my own space. I'm very introverted and need to spend time alone to recharge.

Does the one imply the other? I mean, I'm also introverted, but I couldn't not live permanently with DW... (I mean, I could, but I don't think that would be optimal).

I guess it all comes down to (as always?) communicating your needs. I learned the hard way that it's not obvious to state "You know what, I need a little recharge, let me nerd around for a bit" or something along these lines. You could even go a little bit further and make your next birthday present a 2-day retreat etc...

There's a strong tendency for independence in the current world, but what I guess what I really need is a strong interdependence (see also Ego's and Jacob's discussion in the other thread).

I think what I prefer is living communally with a variety of other people, but having my own room and project space, and SO(s) who are like Sea Captains who fairly regularly arrive back at my port from their own adventures bearing gifts and strange tales.