Moby Dick Book Club? January through March 2023

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Henry
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Re: Moby Dick Book Club? January through March 2023

Post by Henry »

http://www.academypublication.com/issue ... /01/11.pdf

I believe you are RC? Listen to Bishop Baron "The Dangers of Self Determination." Trinitarianism became Deism (Unitarianism) became Transcendentalism (Pantheism). Or in Baron's terms Theonomy-Heteronomy-Autonomy. Ask a church planter the most difficult place to start a church in America and they will say New England.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Moby Dick Book Club? January through March 2023

Post by Hristo Botev »

Image
Henry wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:25 am
Mortimer Adler has a rule (at least I think it’s his) that when reading great books to avoid reading introductions or external analyses/summaries/criticisms/secondary materials until after you’ve read the book yourself and tried to engage in a conversation with the author on his own terms, bringing only whatever knowledge you already possess. This is one of the reasons why he and others in the great books movement advocate for reading the books in order, roughly, a rule im violating by skipping ahead from the ancient Greeks to Moby Dick. Which is to say I’m probably not giving a fair shake to the transcendentists by having not read them (with the exception of multiple readings of self reliance and Walden) before reading Moby Dick. But that’s ok, life is short and Melville is a helluva writer, so he is worth skipping ahead to—I’ll just try and remember that I’m on relatively shaky ground if I try and critique his metaphysics or those of whom he is being critical of.
Henry wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:25 am
Ask a church planter the most difficult place to start a church in America and they will say New England.I
I’m scared to ask what a “church planter” is, cuz I think I can guess, and I don’t think I’ll like the answer.

Henry
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Re: Moby Dick Book Club? January through March 2023

Post by Henry »

I can see Adler's point especially with a writer like Emerson who references everything before him.

Church planting is a Protestant/Evangelical term for starting a church, or at least attempting to start one. They have pretty much given up on New England and Emerson's lasting influence has a lot to do with that.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Moby Dick Book Club? January through March 2023

Post by Hristo Botev »

Henry wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 7:29 am
Church planting is a Protestant/Evangelical term for starting a church, or at least attempting to start one. They have pretty much given up on New England and Emerson's lasting influence has a lot to do with that.
sounds like a point in favor of the transcendentalists then; I’m just imagining one of those “churches” occupying what used to be a restaurant franchise or whatever in a run down strip mall where the anchor tenant is now a discount store, with some vomit inducing name like “Happenings, the Church.” If the legacy of transcendentalism has left New Englanders with enough backbone to reject that level of heresy and degeneracy, then there must be something there, there.

Henry
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Re: Moby Dick Book Club? January through March 2023

Post by Henry »

Depends on your viewpoint. It's not like everyone in New England remains a Unitarian or a Transcendentalist or lives in a wooden house by a pond measuring their gardens in cubits. I don't live there, but judging by what I know of Red Sox nation, they do not seem like the type of crowd bringing dog eared copies of Self Reliance to Fenway Park to read between innings. It was merely a stage in the dissolution of Christianity that has led to this historical moment.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Moby Dick Book Club? January through March 2023

Post by Hristo Botev »

From this morning’s reading:
Wonderfullest things are ever the unmentionable; deep memories yield no epitaphs; ….
What a writer; a day’s worth of pondering in those two clauses.

I wonder if Bulkington is an Achilles type character

Henry
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Re: Moby Dick Book Club? January through March 2023

Post by Henry »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 7:35 am
sounds like a point in favor of the transcendentalists then; I’m just imagining one of those “churches” occupying what used to be a restaurant franchise or whatever in a run down strip mall where the anchor tenant is now a discount store, with some vomit inducing name like “Happenings, the Church.” If the legacy of transcendentalism has left New Englanders with enough backbone to reject that level of heresy and degeneracy, then there must be something there, there.
I was really referring to Methodist/Baptists/Presbyterians/Lutherans/Congregationalists, denominations that were established before the founding through the first and second great awakenings i.e. the denominations that were the historical antecedents of Unitarianism/Transcendentalism. Not the Pentecostals and such others that have their origins in the 20th century.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Moby Dick Book Club? January through March 2023

Post by Hristo Botev »

Henry wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 8:26 am
I know, I’m showing my RC colors. Ecumenicism aside, it’s all heresy to me.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Moby Dick Book Club? January through March 2023

Post by Hristo Botev »

In truth, a mature man who uses hair-oil, unless medicinally, that man has probably got a quoggy spot in him somewhere. As a general rule, he can’t amount to much in his totality.

Henry
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Re: Moby Dick Book Club? January through March 2023

Post by Henry »

It's heresy to both sides. But ask members from each side to specify the actual points of disagreement, they will have a hard time enumerating them. And if they do know, they are reluctant to admit how much the traditions share, that there is actually more continuity than discontinuity. I guess this is entire conversation is somewhat off topic, although Melville seems inclined towards theological/philosophical parsing so al least its in the spirit of the book.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Moby Dick Book Club? January through March 2023

Post by Hristo Botev »

Henry wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 8:49 am
It's heresy to both sides. But ask members from each side to specify the actual points of disagreement, they will have a hard time enumerating them. And if they do know, they are reluctant to admit how much the traditions share, that there is actually more continuity than discontinuity. I guess this is entire conversation is somewhat off topic, although Melville seems inclined towards theological/philosophical parsing so al least its in the spirit of the book.
Perhaps we should leave the religious wars for another thread, but whoever the “they” Catholics are, if they can’t enumerate the heresies of the historically misbranded “reformation,” then they have been poorly catechized indeed (a side effect of felt banner Catholicism, no doubt). And as for the shared tradition, of course it’s shared as it was one capital “T” Tradition right up until the “reformers” rejected the Tradition and “planted” their own church. ecumenicism may have its place in our modern world, but we are fooling ourselves if we think it isn’t the devil’s work; divide, dilute, conquer.

candide
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Re: Moby Dick Book Club? January through March 2023

Post by candide »

I've just finished chapter 16. Chapter-wise this keeps me on pace for the first check-point, and page-wise I am well ahead (a lot of short chapters must be a'coming).

I'm really pleased with how readable this has been. Considering Hawthorne was a contemporary (and good friend -- maybe even Queequeg and Ishmael intensity friendship), we are greatly blessed by this selection. Moby Dick has a lot of little goodies, but even if you miss one, the story still tracks. With Hawthorne, on the other hand, these his ideas are the point, and he punishes you if you don't ponder them -- and one could argue he punishes you if you do.

Well, back off the internet, and to reading. It is a cold day, so desire to do much and I will get busy the next two, so I should see if I can get a bit further ahead of pace.

Update. I finished Chapter 23 -- The Lee Shore. Beautiful.

As this is my first time with the book, it makes me wonder if this is a hinge point in the narrative tone, or if it will continue on mostly irreverent and playful, spinning a yarn with puns, jokes, and paradoxes... I had to confirm with my wife that the book does not have a reputation for being fun.

This has been fun.

And don't worry about me if it doesn't "stay fun." I'm a big boy when it comes to reading big books -- War and Peace, Infinite Jest (with the obligatory second reading), The Brothers Karamazov, The Inferno. I'll stay the course.

candide
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Re: Moby Dick Book Club? January through March 2023

Post by candide »

Okay, I've pulled into port, having finished chapter 42. I think I'm going to take a few days off, and then take the next third at a slower pace as I have a few library books I need to get through.

Oh boy was chapter 23 a turning point in terms of the style of the book. I am happy to be right, but it was just so different than the chapters before, and I had to consider the reputation of the book -- there was no way it could be so ponderous and weighty carrying on with the bumbling adventures told as a clear-enough narrative. Something had to give, and chapter 23 did feel like a likely place for it to happen.

The sea changes everything. Once you get out there, why not have the prose also reflect the madness and tedium? An epic is about scope, not the speed of action.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Moby Dick Book Club? January through March 2023

Post by Hristo Botev »

Chapter 23 really was beautiful.

I too am nearing port, currently at Chapter 37; which is good because I've fallen behind schedule in my Thucydides reading and need to catch up. Melville is a good bit more tempting to pick up than is Thucydides, which isn't to rank them against each other, as they are very different books. But Melville makes you want to keep on reading to the next chapter, even when that next chapter is on Cetology.

candide
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Re: Moby Dick Book Club? January through March 2023

Post by candide »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Mon Dec 26, 2022 10:11 am
But Melville makes you want to keep on reading to the next chapter, even when that next chapter is on Cetology.
Hehe.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Moby Dick Book Club? January through March 2023

Post by Hristo Botev »

Chapter 22 - Merry Christmas: The Pequod sets sail; Bildad and Peleg depart

Chapter 23 - The Lee Shore: Melville dropping absolute truth bombs; return of Bulkington; truth seeking requires going out to sea, into danger and away from the safety and comfort of the port

Chapter 24- The Advocate: Contrasting honor given to whalemen v. soldiers; I advocates for the wailing industry

Chapter 25 - Postscript: More on the nobility of whaling; sperm whale oil is used to anoint kings

Chapter 26- Knights and Squires: I describes Starbuck, and ponders his measured courage; I compares and contrasts "men" with "man"

Chapter 27 - Knights and Squires: I describes Stubb and Flask, the other mates, and the harpooners, Q, Tashtego, and Dagoo; and he describes how islanders make the best whalemen

Chapter 28 - Ahab: First sighting of Ahab

Chapter 29 - Enter Ahab; to him, Stubb: Ahab is grumpy and insults Stubb

Chapter 30 - The Pipe: Ahab gives up smoking, as the pope no longer soothes

Chapter 31 - Queen Mab: Stubb recounts a dream where he was kicked by Ahab, which he is told by a man of the sea is an honor; tough love? charity?; first mention of a "white whale"

Chapter 32 - Cetology: Recitation of same

Chapter 33 - The Specksnyder: Description of chief harpooner and of importance of stratification between officers and crew

Chapter 34 - The Cabin-Table: Description of the dining protocols aboard the P

Chapter 35 - The Mast-Head: Description of the mast head duties and how philosophical types make poor watch men

Chapter 36 - The Quarter Deck: Ahab announces his mission to kill Moby Dick to the crew, his mates are concerned

Chapter 37 - Sunset: Monologue of Ahab prophesying what is to come and recounting what came before

Chapter 38 - Dusk: Starbuck monologue recounting Ahab's crazy plan and his inability to stop it

Chapter 39 - First Night-Watch: Stubb's monologue - laugh because it is all predestined

Chapter 40 - Midnight, Forecastle: Dialogue of the party of the crew, interrupted by a storm

Chapter 41 - Moby Dick: Description of the lore of MD and of Ahab's prior encounter with it and his monomaniacal pursuit of it and of his madness

Chapter 42 - The Whiteness of the Whale: A meditation on whiteness

candide
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Re: Moby Dick Book Club? January through March 2023

Post by candide »

I'm still enjoying the book, and even if not much discussion opens up here, I want to thank you, Hristo, for sharing about your project and thus giving the nudge to read it.

After I hit the check-point, I have shifted to reading about a chapter a day -- some days two and taking some days off. This pace should be right on for the next check-in and only a little behind the pace for finishing the book by March 12th.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Moby Dick Book Club? January through March 2023

Post by Hristo Botev »

candide wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 8:55 pm
Thanks. One question I have is what is Melville saying about religion in Chapters 37, 38, and 39 through the personalities and reactions of Starbuck, Stubb, and Ahab? Seems Stubb is some sort of representation of predestination and/or Calvinism, but what is Melville saying in these chapters?

candide
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Re: Moby Dick Book Club? January through March 2023

Post by candide »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 10:23 pm
One question I have is what is Melville saying about religion in Chapters 37, 38, and 39 through the personalities and reactions of Starbuck, Stubb, and Ahab? Seems Stubb is some sort of representation of predestination and/or Calvinism, but what is Melville saying in these chapters?
Hmm. To think through that, I'd back up one chapter to 36. Whereas everything has changed since we gotten out to sea, losing the narrative that was tightly about Ishmael and his buddy, and we've had some things poetic (we already mentioned chapter 23) and we've had non-fiction -- even of the deliberately driest, almost Aristotelian sort (cetology), with 36 the genre is being bent yet again, this time using the language of dramatic conventions. It starts "Enter Ahab; Then, all." And while this doesn't break down into a play with the format of character/line (which Melville later does in chapter 40), we still have an aside in chapter 36. My marginal note was "Aside. Like Shakespeare." And, oh my, what an aside it is:
Something shot from my dilated nostrils, he has inhaled it in his lungs. Starbuck now is mine; cannot oppose me now, without rebellion.
The book has gone from extreme realism and dry descriptions to this line. Who talks like this? a) crazy people b) people in a play c) people who are crazy because they think they are in a play d) people who are crazy and force everyone else to be in a play so they can then seem like they are "just playing" so it is less obvious they are really crazy, but you would have to question the motives of someone forcing everyone to be in a play...

But Melville realized somethings about that the nature of group dynamics, including charisma, and play-acting and the forcing public oaths. This is one of those "ahead of its time" things, as the next century would feature these tactics so magnified by communications technologies.

Ch 37. Ahab knows he's crazy:
They think me mad -- Starbuck does; but I'm demoniac, I am madness maddened! That wild madness that's only calm to comprehend itself!
And 38 and 39 shows human fallibility in light of such power. While Starbuck's reaction seems like it should be puzzling, but to me it is realistic in light the entire century that followed -- people had at the very least glimpses of what was wrong, but look how long these systems could go.

Stubb, yes, predestination, and I look back to see he straight up says so. But I think it is also a kind of working class resignation. Also, he wants to see himself as wise. And sometimes that is the greatest trap of all.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Moby Dick Book Club? January through March 2023

Post by Hristo Botev »

candide wrote:
Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:35 am
The group dynamics piece is really interesting. When I taught Sunday School I'd always start the first class with a group contract of sorts, where the kids would offer up what sort of rules they would want for the class, and then we'd have a discussion and come to some sort of agreement as to those rules, write them on a large piece of paper, and everyone would sign the paper. Then, throughout the year as kids would break the agreed-upon rules, I'd direct that kid back to the rules to remind them that these were their rules, not just mine. It was VERY MUCH an exercise in the Delphi method--manufacturing consent, getting "public buy-in" at a community meeting where some consulting firm has pre-selected acceptable input and feedback options (dare I say: The Synod on Synodality!?!?). Honestly, it makes me feel a bit guilty/dirty for having done it; it was such a manipulative tactic that really shouldn't have a place in a catechetical formation class; and it was a tactic that I was trained to do by the "Director of Faith Formation." Would have been much more honest and Christian to say: Class, in this class we will follow the following rules, because the wisdom of the ages has taught us that following these rules will result in an effective learning environment consistent with Christian ideals--i.e., these are the rules because I say they are the rules, a concept that should not be difficult to understand in the context of a hierarchical church like the Catholic Church.

But you're right, that is EXACTLY what Ahab was doing on deck with his pep rally.

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