ERE1 vs ERE2, forum culture

[white belt]

I'm not saying that will happen here - just saying the forum seems to be following a similar direction these days, and it's slightly concerning.

Meh, this sort of thing has happened once every few years on these forums. I'm sure Jacob has a list of every such "forum breaking" event of the last 15 years. Of course the difference this time compared to previous events is that Jacob's energy/motivation to put the pieces back together is much lower, although it may be the case that the community's energy/motivation to hold things together is higher than in previous events.

[Fish]

Usually I know the end is near when dear leader starts speculating about shutting down at the end of the next year, there are excessive abuse of forum rules, more threads and posts are getting deleted and locked, and some members start sending private messages about their frustrations with dear leader actions, dear leader becomes more and more defensive, etc.

Everyone gets more and more defensive and eventually dear leader is like "eh, fuck it" and locks everything and puts the forum in read only mode.

I'm not saying that will happen here - just saying the forum seems to be following a similar direction these days, and it's slightly concerning.

Did you miss this, or were you referring to it?

I think the thing to consider is (and this is something I consider and something I would like to ask the forum about)... how and to what degree would it be problem if the ERE forum went permanently offline tomorrow or next year?

What would you all do if I said the ERE forum would end---most likely it would be frozen in place/achieved---on 20231231?

Things had started turning around after the darknetting discussion, and considered writing a journal update for the first time in years. Changed my mind after reading a few sh*tposts here over the past week. I don’t have any qualms with the perpetrators and I even believe they have a valid perspective from which I can learn something. Unfortunately, this is not an environment in which I desire to participate. Participants need to have some level of respect for the forum as an institution. Otherwise you’re going to drive me back to read-only mode again.

[Slevin]

With regard to the above post;

If someone is flaming / saying rude things, should I tell them to "f off" or just write up a report? I'm really not a fan of people attacking other people here, 0% tolerance. I wrote some "tell off" replies to some of them, but didn't post or deleted right after because honestly I also don't want to add fuel to the fire and feeding trolls is probably a bad reaction, and posting trying to redirect them comes off as endorsing their disingenuous behavior.

[M]

@Fish

Yes - that is what I'm referring to, among other posts that have since been deleted.

I've been on these forums for 12 years now, and I haven't noticed this level of flame baiting and frustrations before...maybe they always existed and I have missed them in the past. I don't post often, but I do read a lot.

It also seems like - honestly - dear leader seems tired of it all and is ready to 'retire' from day to day forum responsibilities. One of the reasons he retired early is because he gets bored of doing the same things, having the same conversations, noticing the same patterns...If he doesn't have some purpose in maintaining the forums I could see them getting locked, imo.

[OutOfTheBlue]

While there is a certain barrier to entry in these forums, the big deal for me is that we keep this a safe and fertile ground for exchange and discussions with those who are already here.

It is not possible to just rely on a leader or administrator to achieve that. Let's all do our part. Yes, it's about forum culture.

It pains me to read Fish's post about this not being a conducive environment to participate.

I agree with AxelHeyst. At this point, the discussion on ERE2 and fostering forum participation has maybe ran its course, to the point Godwin's law has either been already verified (didn't see all deleted posts) or close to being so...

Godwin's law is an Internet adage asserting that as an online discussion grows longer (regardless of topic or scope), the probability of a comparison to Nazis or Adolf Hitler approaches 1.

Maybe we can return to more "practical theoretical" matters, discussing nuts and bolts, theorizing and generally create value? I feel the more we dwell on this discussion, the more it may divolve into something divisive and fester bad blood.

It started with the discussion on darknetting, which brought a new energy and participation to the forums, and evolved towards ERE1 vs ERE2, furthering understanding and context awareness for many. At this point, if this becomes so divisive that it reduces valuable members to silence, we might come full circle in a bad way.

Let's all keep the virtuous circle going...

[suomalainen]

I dunno. To me it seems like two things are happening:

1) @Jacob, who quite literally owns this forum (has admin access and pays the hosting fees, etc.), was interested in Thing X for a while and then he got a little bored and did a couple of other things and got bored of those things and has gotten fully bored with Thing X. Diminishing returns and all. He has this forum about Thing X that other people are still invested in.

2) @Jacob, who has been into Thing X longer than any of us, is ready to move on to Thing Y ... taking HIS forum along with it. So almost everyone else, forgetting for the moment that they are NOT the owners of said forum, start freaking out about "their" forum going to this cultish or whatever direction. It's like all the hullabaloo about Twitter under Elon Musk.

Thing X is ERE1 and Thing Y is ERE2, but they could be generically anything. Would the reaction be the same (was it the same?) if Thing Y were hedge funds or martial arts or woodworking or permaculture? I'm not sure it would be. I wonder if it's really the ERE1-ers who feel personally threatened by the ERE2-ers, seeing the difference as one of degree rather than of kind. There is no linear progression from ERE1 to ERE2, so why get all bent out of shape that @Jacob wants to go do something different? The forums lose people (including myself) all the time when it no longer is interesting to the people who once found it interesting. Some of us explore ERE1 as far as we can, but when we find out it doesn't answer the questions we are asking, it's time to spend energy in more fruitful causes. Why should @Jacob be any different?

Zooming back out to forum culture ... yeah, without @Jacob feeding the ERE1 side of the forum, there will be some diminishment in activity. Maybe it even dies. At the same time, maybe there isn't enough interest and participation in the ERE2 side of the forum for it to survive and thrive. Only time will tell. But why should the ERE1 forum be so dependent on @Jacob anyway? Why shouldn't he be allowed to outgrow it and move on? Why shouldn't the people who value the ERE1 forum continue to nurture it? Perhaps @Jacob could offload some of the admin burden (if any, I have no idea) to someone(s) who wish to take on that responsibility.

I dunno. These things just ... evolve naturally. What will happen to ERE1 will happen, based on what ERE1-ers do with it. What will happen to ERE2 will happen, based on what ERE2-ers do with it. If one or both die, so be it - we don't exist for the forum; the forum exists for us. If we don't value it, if we don't tend to it, then it will die. But if we do value it and tend to it (by participating), then it will continue as it has been.

[Ego]

Thinking of this in another way, for me, my Web of Goals are very heavily focused on myself and the various links/relations of goals are related to myself and my own other goals. Whereas the Web of Goals of Ego contain many more links to the lives and goals of other people. I'd like to learn more about how to do that, and more importantly, how to get myself to do it, because while I think I mostly understand the importance and reasons for it, but I still don't do it much.

That was a really nice post. Thank you!

You are not alone. It is much easier to stay in the comfortable known space than step out into the uncomfortable unknown. Your post made me want to live up to the image I've created here. This morning I reached out to a friend who has been inviting me for months to practice one of my new hobbies with him. He is an expert and I enjoy being around him. There is no good reason for my hesitancy other than not wanting to look stupid and inexperienced around an expert. He sounded happy I finally agreed and I have resolved myself to looking a little silly for a few weeks until I get the hang of it.

I think it is important to point out that you are living in a country that is not your own. You are learning an extremely difficult language and immersing yourself in an extremely different culture. In that, you are doing a thousand things a day that may feel mundane and boring but are quite the opposite to those looking from the outside.

And also, This is Water https://youtu.be/eC7xzavzEKY

[steveo73]

However, the actual definition of what a cult is requires bit more than "a group of people using words I have to look up".

I used the cult word and I'll explain it because it has nothing at all to do with this.

The best example I can think of is the use of the Wheaton scale when you can't discuss something factually. I used this point as well when posting but it seems you didn't understand the point being made (maybe your fault but maybe mine). A great example is people were talking about getting to really low WR's as that was part of their movement to a higher Wheaton level. It's stupid. Since there isn't a rational argument you have to resort to cult terminology to justify your position.

If you want to get to a low WR cool but it ain't special and don't try and rationalize that you are right because of Wheaton levels. No one is right in this instance. People get to have their own plans for financial independence just the same as they get to live their lives how they want. Interestingly you made this same point.

When you state people can't accept people having other interests I'm stating you are right. The side point is don't try and make out that your way is right because of Wheaton levels. That is cultish.

--> I'm not using you as in you posted that either. I can't remember who it was but it was so cultish and I've seen it more than once.

being tolerant of other people's interests and having the self-awareness to see how one's own interests, like FIRE, still looks weird from the normie perspective.

I have no problems with this. I've stated multiple times that obtaining FIRE in my late 40's is extreme to normal society. I'm cool with people having other interests.

In my experience people who use big words usually do so because they don't understand concepts. The big word/jargon should be used to simplify discussions and not complicate them. My impression of ERE2 is that it's a lack of intelligence or maybe better put clear thinking that leads to the terminology being used. This was something that I found used to happen at work by the people who were bum suckers or they just didn't get the work that we were doing. To be clear I worked in data and predominantly SQL and data analysis. It isn't that hard but some people don't get it. A bunch of us couldn't believe how well we were paid for not working that hard but so many people simply couldn't cut it.

The cultish aspects are when you use terminology to hide or obfuscate the issue usually because you can't explain the concept simply which typically means there is a lack of understanding.

When I read about ERE2 I see people using a bunch of big words to state nothing at all to try and make themselves feel important.

Is the world that bad ?
How on earth can you expect people to group together to solve the problems you consider so horrific ?
What do you want out of it ?
Why are your ideas better than what we've instituted over human history ? I'm talking governments and organizations like the United Nations.

I'm interested because these types of questions don't appear to be asked and it's important. Is this all just a silly ego trip because you and others are bored or can't fit into society.

What does all this mean practically ? A commune ?

[steveo73]

This is true. I don't see any particular difference outside of new concepts and terminology. I almost wonder if this has arisen partially because @jacob, who like many high iq individuals is easily bored and craves new intellectual stimulation (dopamine flushing ), has gotten bored of ERE 1.0 concepts and isn't sure what the next great endeavor should be.

I see a whole bunch of presentations and esoteric ideas and I think what a load of palava. I don't see smart. I see a muddy thinking. This is my personality make up though.

When I was at work I was good friends with a big boss. We got along great because we both didn't like hearing stuff that could be explained simply being explained like spaghetti code.

Perhaps I am selfish - but for me ERE was just a way to live a good life with minimal effort or focus on traditional 'work'.

One should see ERE as complimentary to life, not as the purpose of life.

Exactly. This is important as well. I like being given ideas and discussing those ideas which means being critical. When it comes to the FIRE movement it was always though about my happiness and my own path. My wife loves it as well. The kids just have to suck it up.

I was going to respond to @ertyu as well but I read your post.

Here is another point. Some people are by nature maybe more communal or society based whereas others are more individual or Randian based. I'm more Rand than communal.

[steveo73]

I am looking forward to easing off these meta discussions and getting back to more nuts and bolts discussions and actions around living our EREx lives.

I don't care if people want to do ERE2 stuff. I don't know what it means but I don't think anyone on here does at this point. You gotta drill into the details.

My take is anyone can do the meta discussion. It's getting into the details which is important.

[steveo73]

That was a really nice post. Thank you!

You've always been a great poster. I think your lifestyle is very different to mine but that's cool.

[candide]

This post is descending into ad hominem and insensitivity, and frankly if taken seriously could be the kind of body blow that if added up leads to the "we're done" moment. Real question -- is that what you want? The whole forum closed down just so the possibility of ERE2 conversations is over?

Yes, it ERE2 has no current praxis beyond ERE1/this forum, but there's no reason to be super mean about it... What about all the other stuff all the people involved do on this forum, from answering questions to in Daylen's case offering to help tutor on any of the big frameworks that are creating the jargon? ... Can you actually name anyone who has contributed to ERE2 that doesn't offer free value here in other ways?

In my experience people who use big words usually do so because they don't understand concepts. The big word/jargon should be used to simplify discussions and not complicate them. My impression of ERE2 is that it's a lack of intelligence or maybe better put clear thinking that leads to the terminology being used. This was something that I found used to happen at work by the people who were bum suckers or they just didn't get the work that we were doing. To be clear I worked in data and predominantly SQL and data analysis. It isn't that hard but some people don't get it. A bunch of us couldn't believe how well we were paid for not working that hard but so many people simply couldn't cut it.

That is one use of jargon. Another is to achieve more density -- say more in less space, or taking up a shorter amount of time. Here are three snapshots from the thread of another time someone said "just explain it clearer, but in few words... Why aren't you smart enough to do that?"

viewtopic.php?p=244657#p244657
viewtopic.php?p=244897#p244897
viewtopic.php?p=244666#p244666

I will admit that at times ERE2 has looked less like post-docs presenting their research, and more like management in bullshit/rebrand mode -- but that was for lack of awareness that it looked that way. (Heck, it might it might even be for lack of serving in, or serving long enough, in dysfunctional organizations). Honest effort has been made by a lot of people since issues were brought up in the darknet thread. Why shit on people so hard even if you are in the right?

[steveo73]

This post is descending into ad hominem and insensitivity, and frankly if taken seriously could be the kind of body blow that if added up leads to the "we're done" moment. Real question -- is that what you want? The whole forum closed down just so the possibility of ERE2 conversations is over?

That is pretty intense dude. I disagree with your assessment. I can accept the insensitivity but the ad hominen comment doesn't cut it with me.

To be clear I don't want the forum closed down to stop ERE2 conversations. I find that ridiculous. Please keep discussing ERE2. I read it a while back but I didn't say anything. I had a laugh but not that big a one.

That is one use of jargon. Another is to achieve more density -- say more in less space, or taking up a shorter amount of time. Here are three snapshots from the thread of another time someone said "just explain it clearer, but in few words... Why aren't you smart enough to do that?"

I am smart enough to do that. If I use jargon I try to use it to explain complex topics more simply. I actually stated that was sometimes the whole point of jargon. It is to say less words and get your point across. The problem that I had from reading a bunch of the ERE2 stuff is that it's basically all jargon. It's all esoteric stuff which makes it meaningless words.

Why shit on people so hard even if you are in the right?

This is a good question. Firstly I didn't consider that a hard shit. Secondly I think you've nailed the point. I'm just talking to the issue. People shouldn't be so sensitive.

I mentioned my old boss who I got along with great, He was really confrontational and would confront these issues. He did it with me and it's water off a duck's back but he did it with a mate and he was so pissed off.

Some people are sensitive and some aren't. Some talk directly and some don't. I was a sensitive little bitch when I was younger but I've toughened up. I think being direct is the right way to be.

Hope that helps. I'll add that I don't have to keep commenting. I initially responded to Jacob stating that my belief of cultish behavior was based on not understanding the jargon but it had nothing to do with that. It's how the jargon is used.

[M]

Eh - I don't think this is a cult.

If this were a cult dear leader would have already bought 80 acres of prime timberland in Michigan and started hosting retreats and workshops for the purpose of learning various skills like gardening, woodworking, hunting, welding, canning, how to butcher a cow, cooking, coding, and the theory of dumpster diving. Something like this:

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandho ... 4486-77641

He would also teach us all how to cut our own chain saw milled lumber and build 10' x 10' mini cabins on the property (which require no permits) and setup shop close enough to hit wifi from the main house and some people would be invited to live there more long term in exchange for help with the garden, help with chain saw milling more lumber, help with building new cabins, teaching classes, etc.

Even then - I don't think it would be a cult. It would be more like a nice place to have in person meetups while learning new ERE skills and abilities. I mean - how much would it really cost to build a 10' x 10' cabin built from chain saw milled lumber from trees cut down on one's own property?

If ERE 2.0 is about community, then we should build a community.

ETA: For reference, here is a guy who loves in Michigan and builds his own chain saw milled lumber mini cabins:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2fAnDfXbmvs

[candide]

@Steveo73 I don't want to leave you unacknowledged, but I don't feel like debating tone or ERE2 meta any further at this point.

[Ego]

Yeah - I mean - I don't completely understand what the big deal is exactly.

People will talk about what they feel like talking about, and many fields have their own terminology. esp. STEM, medical fields, etc. This is not uncommon.

On Saturday I was having an interesting conversation with a friend when two other guys decided to join us. The conversation continued to be interesting until one guy used a sportsball reference that was related to the topic at hand. Before we could continue, the other took the reference and ran with it, completely shifting the topic to sportsball.

I made a gesture to the guy I was originally speaking with and we turned aside to continue with the original topic that we both found very interesting.

Both and also purple, the so-called "cold colors". Break the code and you'll be cast out albeit in different ways, each way reflecting the opposite of the highest held value. The individual who refuses to play along will get sanctioned according to what the group values.

Purple values family bonds, so out = disowned by the family
Blue values faith, so out = excommunicated from the faith community
Green values loving inclusion, so out = cold shoulder from the group

Ironically, extreme individualists likely don't care that much about the punishment, but for the collectively oriented person who didn't conform, these sanctions would be bad news indeed.

The military is red/blue. Breaking the military code results in a dishonorable discharge: excommunicated (blue) and loss of honor (red).

J&G asked for it. Jacob answered. And the topic is in the ERE2 boards. Someone else will almost certainly chime in and the original topic is.... down for the count.

Of course, Jacob owns the place so he has every right to shift the conversation in whatever direction he sees fit.

[guitarplayer]

I think that all those colour theories might be potentially helpful in that having a sort of slang paradoxically allows for a freer conversation and helps to avoid using words that have a common meaning but also technical one (think Cipolla's stupid). Giving technical meaning to words that have a common meaning is a very common source of misunderstandings in social science, this goes for philosophy also. Having those enigmatic words is a bit like creating dummy variables to then fill them up with meaning.

In fact, I think the guys who came up with the colour theory had that aim because they worked in apartheid South Africa so it was better to have all those purples and blues rather than everything in black and white, if you see what I mean.

As to social sciences theories, I almost want to say that this stuff is not difficult to comprehend (like the colour theory), one of the links @jacob posts to here and there will do. But I might be biased because I have read quite a few of the theories. I find that if a social theory is hard to comprehend it is more often than not a rubbish theory. Not because it is hard to get but because this field is not yet developed enough to afford complicated frameworks.

Nota bene: I have just read this extraordinary article about, coincidentally, Plato's allegory of the cave as the original metaphor for religious conversion. The author splits hair over whether the original word for conversion was epistrephō ('convert,' 'turn,' 'return,' or 'go back') or periagō ('turn around') and how subsequent translators of the original text might have had vested interest in using one word over the other. I guess we are not the first ones debating vocabulary.

[mathiverse]

This isn't unique to ERE2 threads and topics. This has happened for a long time on the forum. This happens in threads on ERE2, threads about investing (eg every active investing thread hijacked by the 4%-index-investing-missionaries on the forum), threads about raising kids which get side threads thrown up about finding relationship partners in the first place, threads about various topics that are hijacked by politicization (see locked threads). Maybe the better advice isn't to ban colors/jargon/etc, but to encourage what you and your friend did? The people invested in the original topic ask to keep the thread on topic while continuing the discussion and the new folks are encouraged to start a new thread on the topic. I took the liberty of doing that in the thread you mentioned.

Jacob also has the power to move posts to new threads where it is appropriate, so this can also be done with a request to jacob (eg "Hey could you move posts XYZ to a new thread called ABC?")