WL 5 -> 6 MMMG

[candide]

I wanted to draw attention to this thread from Scott 2's journal

viewtopic.php?p=266770#p266770

He spent $6 on restaurants last year, and his reasoning shows how these become habits, and how our habits can change us.

[ertyu]

If I rank relevance by expenditure, investing is certainly the place to start, no other category "bleeds" as much

Housing is a no-go, as a foreigner on a work visa who needs to be registered with the police and have an aboveboard rental contract for various other administrative tasks down the line, the best I can do is rent a smaller, cheaper place and consider distance from j*b. Many professional expat positions reimburse housing up to some reasonable limit so the key optimization metric is often something other than cost.

Food is a module that bleeds less than investing but where I'm mightily inefficient. Cooking skill isn't a limiting factor, I can cook well enough to feed myself. I spend so much on "mall food" and take-out mainly because I am meeting other needs, such as 1. exercising freedom: in this case, to not do a task when all day at work I do not have that freedom, 2. allowing myself to safely expect a positive experience (being in a nice environment with caffeine + a highly palatable baked good, which would then bring additional enjoyment via chemically enhanced focus), 3. giving myself some joy in life, 4. having predictability, reliability, and control over having a positive experiences in life, 5. meeting social needs (parallel play) in a social space where the convention is that i will not have to interact or be bothered beyond any exchanges I have with the barista -- social needs can be met without the pressure to perform social theater to specification,,,

etcetera.

The situation with transportation is similar - it's not that cheaper options to the uber to work are unavailable, it's that they imply walking routes that are depressing and aesthetically unpleasant (which, if done daily, has an impact on mental health). or they imply waiting for the bus next to a construction materials factory that often gives the surrounding area an organic solvent smell. Ubering is a way to avoid pollution, re-capture sleep, and maximize time not spent at work or on work-related tasks.

In other words, a lot of my excess spending is a coping mechanism for full-time employment

[OutOfTheBlue]

In other words, a lot of my excess spending is a coping mechanism for full-time employment

Full-time employment can be quite taxing… This looks like a non virtuous cycle.

How can you break it?

You just left your previous work, so you are in a good position to find a more synergistic/homeotelic arrangement.

Having reimbursed housing seems quite legit. If you can pull that off and combine it with a rental near your work (or a work location that is accessible by public transport) that includes a kitchen and is not far from food markets, you'd only have to focus on one thing out of the big three: food/cooking.

A challenge for a year of no eating out could do wonders to help you further insource this and instill a lasting habitual change.

Maybe combine this with a dive into healthy nutrition, longevity and the like.

Could you opt to go freelance this time? This could also change the dynamics.

Another thought. You can just give yourself a few months off or a sabbatical. This may be just what you need to help alleviate the reliance on a coping mechanism.

Finally, living abroad doesn't mean you have to see yourself as an expat. How do the locals live? What would a local do? In a low cost country, one can find a lot inspiration by observing local life. Think glocally

PS: I can post this on your journal instead, or feel free to respond there if it's more appropriate.

[candide]

Hey all.

I would draw the attention all all group members to Avalok's journal, where he has posted some fishbones for the modules that make up potential WoG work.

We seem to be stalled here, and maybe discussion on this will get us going again. I don't mind if progress is slow here, even glacially slow, as long we in fact moving. After all, we have members of the group more on a monthly pattern of checking the forums. (MMGs with meetings are going to be faster -- this is an attempt to see if we can get a value-add doing this thread-based).

But I think we should look Avalok's fishbones and then maybe comment on, copy, or modify any of these in any way that works for you.

So, Avalok's diagram on cooking:

Cooking

I notice how there are no negatives. In fact, something that was listed as a negative on so many other charts -- time -- Avalok it putting a plus, which is spot on, once you have a good cooking system -- either with super simple dishes, or doing good things with batches -- it saves time versus going out or even picking up.

For my part, though, I am going to add the negative of dishes. I have been working on it, and I working on the tweaks to finally get it consistently where it needs to be, but I have found that every time my wife and I hit the level of cooking for ourselves that frugality would indicate, we have overloaded ourselves with dishes.

... Okay, that's me trying to prime the pump here. The next module I'll do this treatment on will probably be "career," but I am also going to let this sit and see if this gets anyone else going, which would be much preferred.

Thanks again Avalok for doing this, especially in the context of having suggested another course of action for the group/thread.

[jacob]

I notice how there are no negatives.

Good observation! I think this is important.

Optimism: Focus on adding to the positives and hoping that the negatives don't crush you.
Pessimism: Focus on eliminating negatives and hoping that the positives aid you.
Realism: Rare unicorns doing both.

I'm a pessimist. This is also reflected in my portfolio designs and returns. When markets go down, I don't lose nearly as much. When they go up, I'm average at best. A mental model for this is offensive alpha (optimism) and defensive alpha (pessimism). Add these up for a total alpha.

Also, it might be interesting to think about WOGs in terms of a positive WOG and a negative WOG separately. If one of them looks weak or lacks details, maybe that's the place to focus for a more balanced view. When designing systems 1+1>2.

[mathiverse]

Ha, my fishbone diagram for cooking definitely includes taking *more* time than the five minutes it takes to push buttons on an app for delivery and to grab the food once delivered. I rarely go out to eat in person. However, I don't include the time to pay for the dish at a restaurant compared to the time to pay for home cooking though, so maybe that's why mine has time as a negative.

[ertyu]

For my part, though, I am going to add the negative of dishes.

dishes simplify exponentially if you stick to plant-based cooking

[candide]

@mathiverse

You got me there. I wasn't even thinking about delivery apps as a possibility.

[white belt]

For my part, though, I am going to add the negative of dishes. I have been working on it, and I working on the tweaks to finally get it consistently where it needs to be, but I have found that every time my wife and I hit the level of cooking for ourselves that frugality would indicate, we have overloaded ourselves with dishes.

One thing that helped me a lot was sticking to hand washing and adding a very large drying rack. This allows me to use pretty much the same set of dishes for every meal because after the meal I can just wash it and put it on the rack to dry. Then the dishes are ready for the next meal when the time comes, no need to deal with putting things in and out of cabinets. Additionally, the rack is a shelf that goes over the sink, so there is minimal lost counter space. This also means the dishes are much easier to clean since they aren't sitting all day with crap stuck on them. I posted about it here: viewtopic.php?p=248779#p248779

I also rarely soak anything unless it absolutely needs it since that takes so much extra time. I basically use this technique although I don't have a double sink or drain stopper so the water just goes down the drain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9kVsnTQh-g

When cooking, often you can minimize the number of dishes used with some careful planning. Another technique I like to use is to clean dishes during lulls in the meal preperation. I'm basically moving non-stop when in the kitchen so if I have a few seconds I'm putting ingredients away or getting ahead on dishes. But I'm also the type of person that likes to tidy up a little bit at a time as a go, rather than waiting until things pile up at the end. I know others have different attitudes towards cleaning/clutter.

[avalok]

I notice how there are no negatives.

I'm glad this was picked up because it did not sit right with me to have an all-positive fishbone but I wasn't going to force myself to think of a negative. Dishes would certainly be a negative for me, though having wrangled with "the dishes problem" a lot, I think it is a fantastic example in how one can turn problems/negatives on their head:

@white belt's approach is a really good optimization, a system similar to my own. I will also add that I use the time to (a) continue conversation with DW, (b) listen to an audiobook or In Our Time, (c) enjoy some music. In a way this has cancelled some of the negatives of dishes by reducing the time taken/effort involved and stacking more enjoyable things on top of a necessity. One's problem solving/optimization skills have also improved in the process of answering the question how do I improve and reduce the time spent doing the dishes?. The end result is a negative at face value that has at the worst become less so.

Going back to the heavy positive skew; the main reason I chose to put all effects as positive was because, while I could think of alternative approaches, cooking for myself seems the optimal way to achieve all the effects. For example, cooking costs money (especially with European energy bills!), but is far cheaper than ordering food in, going out etc. I could not find a way in which cooking was negative, yet not better than an alternative.

[ertyu]

Here is mine for cooking. Tried to stay honest and stick to my actual revealed psychological goals and motivations rather than what "could" or "should" be my goals and motivations.




My current psychological state is stacked against cooking and thus, unsurprisingly, I cook less than would be rationally optimal.

[OutOfTheBlue]

@Ertyu

It's seems you are not in the best of headspaces right now...

My first thought was to say that this does not sound like a great time to tackle the food chapter, as the priorities may be elsewhere.

But then, nutrition may have repercussions on our mood and affect our psychological state. Take sugary food for instance.

If you still want to do something about it now, you could take nutrition from that angle. Can I prioritize foods that help me feel better even if it's less soothing in the moment, and avoid foods that have adverse effects? Also, as per Atomic Habits, how to make healthy/mood-promoting food satisfying and food whose intake you'd better limit unsatisfying?

In this instance, I would no draw the line on costs, or on food you cook food yourself rather that get it from the market. Just focus on the effect on health/mood as you address the other issues.

As the appetite for "healthy" food is restored, soon enough, you'll arrive at the conclusion that food you cook yourself fits that bill more easily.

Seen under this light, cooking (and more generally choosing what to ingest) is a form of self care.

[candide]

@ertyu

Your honesty here is greatly appreciated, and is necessary for moving forward. Too many people on the wider forum are stuck with finding what they want to flex rather than address what they need to work on. And, I mean, I get it, and have been guilty of it myself; it is more fun to show off what you are doing well or what you know, but honesty is what we need to gain by admitting we are not yet WL 6 and that it something we at least aspire to.

To specific suggestions, I have a few. They are just friendly suggestions and I understand they may not work for you.

(1) Lower the amount of variety in your diet (or lower the number of days that have variety).

Something I figured out from *sigh* Tim Ferriss. Those who succeed at this diets (broadly defined, thus for any purpose) tend to go to same meals over and over. It is that cognitive load piece you are talking about. You shouldn't be deciding what you are going to eat that day, but rather have defaults ready.

This advice would not work with my wife, and therefore is not how our household goes. But I know I could do something like

breakfast. Oats with seeds or nuts (h/t Jacob years ago).
lunch. Lentil dish.
dinner. pasta dish or curry dish.

As it stands, I only control my breakfast and lunch during the work week, so after years of miscommunication, frustration, and failure, I eventually realized that I needed to realize my wife wasn't going to change on this, and I needed to account for her desire for variety if we were ever going to make eating at home the default.

(2) Have a pre-written system.

Experiment to find out what your minimum effective load of variety is. Then write out a document with dishes you can make or heat up that will provide that variety.

(3) Maybe try a variant of the Akrasia System I have been doing.

If there is a divide between what your aspirational/long-run self wants and your today/convenience self wants, I would say shift the incentives so the ERE actions are rewarded and the other actions have a cost.

I don't reward myself for the act of cooking, because I just like it, but I really always have. (It's doing dishes that I have to give myself rewards). But if you need a push to cook, I would say do so.

[jacob]

I used to enjoy cooking or rather I used to enjoy learning new recipes. However as is my wont I lost interest and now I just do the bare minimum.

Three things to reduce the load:
1) I only eat once a day. This is actually good for you[r longevity]. Science has finally caught up/gotten out of the "grazing 6 small meals a day" paradigm. Not to start yet another diet war, but at least it's now recognized that eating once a day is not bad for you. In any case, it simplifies things greatly.
2) Batch cook for several days. I very rarely cook amounts that I finish up in less than 4 days. This means I spend about 1 hr total per week cooking everything.
3) Prioritize one-pot meals. For me it's usually a sauce with beans that I can put on pasta or beans (This technically makes it a two potter). Or stir fry. Insofar the amounts of dishes that are generated are at a minimum, you're doing it right.

Absolute targets: 1 pot, 1 bowl, 1 spoon, 1 utility knife, 30 minutes, 6 days. (This can be done.)

Side-effect: Hedonic adaption. After a while you get used to it. Eating out or elsewhere will feel like a treat rather than a convenience.

[avalok]

@ertyu thank you for being honest and sharing your fishbone. The only other suggestion I would add is that it might be worthwhile considering the effects of how you currently eat now, beyond cooking. With no other intention than to reveal what that gives you. For example, despite the expense of cafes they could be a location for serendipity; one may find food/drink there they hadn't tried before; some find them relaxing/creative spaces. These effects can stand in response to the expense. It is probably worthwhile acknowledging what you are getting from your current pattern, even if you do want to change it.

Absolute targets: 1 pot, 1 bowl, 1 spoon, 1 utility knife, 30 minutes, 6 days. (This can be done.)

@jacob I'm curious how you manage to combine this optimization with veg harvests throughout the growing season. I tend to cook little and often from April onwards because food becomes available unpredictably and a batch-cooked pot might cause part of a harvest to go to waste.

[jacob]

@jacob I'm curious how you manage to combine this optimization with veg harvests throughout the growing season. I tend to cook little and often from April onwards because food becomes available unpredictably and a batch-cooked pot might cause part of a harvest to go to waste.

I actually use a "deep plate" instead of a bowl. Sometimes basic things get lost in translation. The plate is also used as a cutting surface. Wait what? Steel edge on ceramic? Yes! I angle the knife so only the edge of the tip suffers ... and then just drag it through whatever vegetable.

Or ... were you asking about how to handle the timing of produce season? If you have a garden, you need adapt to whatever comes out of the ground for free. Stir fry using the "vegetable of the week" as the dominant ingredient is the easiest strategy, e.g. stir fry with rice+beans+turnip ... or rice+beans+zucchini ...

"Sauces" are a bit more complicated.

In [our] practice, we usually end up having to freeze/can at least some of the produce. No way to eat 80 pounds of tomatoes within one week.

[guitarplayer]

Tangent: we have about 30 parsnips that flew our way yesterday and I just googled if it is okay to eat raw parsnip because I can stuff only so many of them into the slow cooker. Apparently yes, and they are even better for you that way.

I am heading to the fridge to try one now.

ETA:

Better thank cooked! Sweet and snappy, a bit nutty and taste slightly of liquorice (@jacob can munch on some to remind him of home). Mind you, I tried a fairly small one, reportedly the large ones can have a fibrous stem.

ETA2: DW has said that it reminds her of coconut.

Happy discovering.

[avalok]

Or ... were you asking about how to handle the timing of produce season? If you have a garden, you need adapt to whatever comes out of the ground for free.

For the first paragraph of your answer I was extremely confused . Hmmm... I will give bulk cooking w/ harvests a go when everything picks back up again. I feel like most of the time it is trying to get through the salad; likely just need to get better at having salads alongside the bulk cooked meal.

@guitarplayer thank you for the parsnip tangent; I have never had success growing them, but my Dad generally does well with them. Will be sure to bite into one raw next time one comes our way.

All this talk of gardening makes me wonder why I didn't list compost scraps as another positive side effect of cooking...

[ertyu]

Thank you to everyone who took the time to give me advice. I will contemplate and respond in my journal when I've decided on a course of action.

[Divandan]

Just read through this thread and I am enjoying it.

After reading I realize I am squarely somewhere between WL4 and 5. I think a lot of people get stuck here though and using me as an example high income, no debt and because of high income it is easy to save close to 50%. Now it is probably even easier to save because my wife and I combined finances starting in FY23. For me this goes back to the statement and philosophy of not solving every problem with money which is a great mindset.

Reading back through chapters 4 and 5 of the ERE book as it is always good reference for me. One of the things I have had success with was the No Buy Month (for shopping) that I will probably try and alternate every month.

I know this article has been shared before but a great article that shows the shift in mindset over the course of the year:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/ ... hier-wiser