Examples of ERE2 Lifestyles (or rather, holons?)

The "other" ERE. Societal aspects of the ERE philosophy. Emergent change-making, scale-effects,...
AxelHeyst
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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by AxelHeyst »

jennypenny wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:28 pm
Is the 2.0 goal to see how a collective ’we’ can benefit us (ERErs) and strengthen our ties to each other? Or is 2.0 just a step towards 3.0, where 2.0 is how a 'we' can benefit us and 3.0 is how a collection of 'we's can grow and strengthen everyone?
I'll take a stab. 'What is the goal of 2.0' might not be the right question. Or, the short answer to your question is "both/and". ERE2.0 is a term used to describe what might happen when the density of ERE1.0 folk hit some threshold (Jacob gives 25% in his response above). The 'goal' of ERE2.0 might better be described as an 'effect', as in, what is the emergent effect of a region with an ERE1.0 density of >25%?

The way ERE is constructed, it seems that such a circumstance would benefit both the ERE people and the non-ERE people. The ERE people would strengthen their toes with each other, and presumably any chunk of people that is 25% ERErs would strengthen everyone.

Insofar as Jacob is trying to save the world from itself, and ERE is about how to free individuals from the cave, ERE2 is about thinking through what happens when a bunch of freed individuals develop ties with each other.

---

I'd like to emphasize a point. I don't think a bunch of ERE1.0 people going off and being extreme in small groups that are exclusionary to the rest of society is ERE2.0. It's just ERE1.0, except with a group of us. That's not actually different in kind.

ERE2, we hypothesize, is a thing with emergent properties. It is not a heap of ERE1 people, it is a new Thing (a new holon, technically).

Boyle is very interesting, but as himself, he's just a very high WL individual. Only by considering his relationships and engagements with other people - both high WL and not high WL - can we start to notice interesting and relevant things to ERE2.0.

Ertyu's thoughts on monasticism are interesting not because of how monks isolate, but because of how they are in fact engaged with their communities.

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by jacob »

What AH said.

(Maybe to avoid confusion, we should stick to ERE1 and ERE2 and avoid the version numbers. I might have used them previously, but ERE1 and ERE2 are different in kind. ERE1.99 doesn't transform into ERE2.0 at the next update.)

Also, keep in mind that in order for emergence to happen, the quality can not exist on a deserted island. One person (or one household) can not be ERE2. In order for there to be features of ERE2, several ERE1 people or more specifically their WOGs have to be connected together whether deliberately or spontaneously.

Think of ERE2 as what changes when WOGs are connected with other WOGs.

Recall that most people don't have WOGs. They have one-dimensional arm-length transactions of money for stuff or services.

WOG--WOG could be quite different.

Current examples of ERE2, albeit total baby steps, would be viewtopic.php?t=6255 or viewtopic.php?t=11627 or viewforum.php?f=28 . The forum itself is also an emergent factor---it wouldn't have come into existing without the blog, but not it exists because of itself. Most of these are online, one-offs, or isolated, so consider this the baby stage.

One step beyond that is the fact that some of us visit each other or plan our trips around such visits.

The FIRE movement is ahead on this. While simpler, they have a lot more people and thus more potential for larger structures like conferences, joint trips, camps, ..., and even "strange attractor" type relocation (the fact that several have moved to Longmont, CO).

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by jacob »

jacob wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:42 am
Think of ERE2 as what changes when WOGs are connected with other WOGs.
And because ERE1 mostly attracts people who are independent, competent, and individualistic, the probability of forming these connections is small.

To contrast and compare, in some climate doomer groups, where members are closer to the opposite side of the spectrum---dependent, narrowly unskilled, and collectively-oriented---lots of connections are formed, but lacking skills and being locked-into current structures, makes it just as hard to create any kind of emergence beyond "talking fests" on zoom.

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by rref »

@Jacob: Could you watch this five minute presentation of Grobund and weigh in on whether it is an example of something ERE2 or not?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szljOTbTuPY

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by jacob »

rref wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:11 am
@Jacob: Could you watch this five minute presentation of Grobund and weigh in on whether it is an example of something ERE2 or not?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szljOTbTuPY
Yes, because it's something I could imagine a bunch of ERE1 people creating. Integrated systems, closed resource loops, production of necessities like housing, food, and energy, self-reliance, and at scale. Which is impressive!

No, because reading the website, it's my impression that one can buy one's way in for ~$10k and so this may attract members based on hopes and dreams rather than skills. IOW, I don't know how much of this is emergent and how much of it depends on a few "ERE1" people "holding everything together". It's hard to evaluate before knowing its ability to maintain itself as an ongoing operation; and it's ability to maintain itself without key-people or founders.

It's basically the difference between a) a bunch of sailors coming together to build a ship in order to sail around the world; and b) a bunch of landlubbers putting in $10k each for a ticket around the world on a ship that's already been procured by a captain and a few mates. A lot of intentional communities are more of the latter kind, a dude ranch, than the former kind.

Examples are difficult because you have to know not just how it looks on the outside, but also what it looks like on the inside (of people's heads).

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by AxelHeyst »

I was reading Six Degrees last night, about how many civilizations fell due to drought (e.g. the Mayan). These societies were structured appropriately to the environment they evolved within, but were not structured to be able to adapt to significant and frequent enough perturbations such as drought. Their society lacked the ability to a) model or imagine future scenarios such as repeat megadroughts and b) adapt society structure to be able to handle such scenarios.

ERE1, from one framing, is about modeling future scenarios that the individual might face (economic disaster, local 'natural' disaster, social destabilization, food supply interruption, personal health issues, etc) and adapting a personal structure (personal financial situation, location, skills, buffers, relationships, health and fitness) to be able to handle such scenarios.

If we stop there, the downsides are mostly obvious (or at least we've discussed them enough that they feel obvious at this point): it can feel isolating to be a solo ERE1 practitioner; any individual or household can only handle so many or so powerful of perturbations before it succumbs, being just one household; what about friends, extended family, neighbors, community? Is the ERE1 household supposed to sit there and watch while others get hacked to pieces by unfolding environment? That doesn't feel good.

I was listening to the Nate Hagens podcast the other day, the fourth conversation with Daniel Schmachtenberger. It's really good. The point I want to bring in here is this:

Schmachtenberger makes the case that when humans broke out of purely genomic evolution, the unit of adaptation that was responding to selection pressures became the coordination ability of groups of humans PLUS their tech stack (agglomeration of skills and knowledge with respect to physical infrastructure; flint knapping, brain tanning, persistence hunting, basket weaving, cordage, canoe building, firemaking, ironwork, the wheel, irrigation canals, animal husbandry, the radio, the internet, etc) PLUS what he calls their superstructure by which I think he means something like group-shared paradigm, cultural goals, etc.

Social coordination ruleset + tech stack + paradigm.

Implicit in what he's saying is that the individual isn't what evolves in adaptation to unfolding environment, it's groups of humans, this unit. Individual tech stacks and paradigms die with the individual. Group-coordinated tech stacks and paradigms pass down and evolve through time in communication with unfolding environment. And this can happen very rapidly.

One way to think about ERE2 is how to create these evolutionary group units, and what might these group units look like? Since the nature of the groups is evolutionary, and how exactly environment (climate, political, social) is going to unfold is a bit of a guessing game, it's probably only worth attempting to envision what these units might look like upon first 'going holon', achieving (semi?)-autonomous emergent-behavior status. Once a unit achieves this state, then it will evolve in response to unfolding environment and we don't have to worry about it anymore. It's been spun up and is responsible for itself now, including it's own self-authoring and visioning.

The imaginal challenge is, what does it take, what does it look like, to get to that initial point?

An extra motivation is that at the moment, the individual ERE1 components are reliant on the environment existing close to the way it now does. I think. This community relies on the internet, on-demand printing, most of us rely on a very industrial-consumer tech stack, our financial systems rely on the economy not being a total crater, etc. Yes, each of us as ERE1 individuals are much better suited to deal with serious perturbations than most people, but then we die of old age or whatever and that's it. There ERE community is fragile.

This strikes me as a prime motivator for talking about ERE2. At some point, the knowledge that I'm probably all right for now isn't good enough. My O2 mask is on, neat, good for me, but a bunch of people around me haven't even yet figured out that they're sucking super thin air and should probably grab a mask. And the only way we're all not going to die soon is if enough people on the plane get their masks on, so we can work together to figure out what the problem is and either patch the hole in the fuselage, or figure out how to glide-land the plane in the jungle and start building a little community there, or whatever needs to be done.

I have some more specific thoughts on what an ERE2 unit might look like but it needs more time in the oven.

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by rref »

jacob wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:46 am
IOW, I don't know how much of this is emergent and how much of it depends on a few "ERE1" people "holding everything together". It's hard to evaluate before knowing its ability to maintain itself as an ongoing operation; and it's ability to maintain itself without key-people or founders.
That is a fair point. The long-term viability is uncertain. From the outside it does seem like the driving forces are Steen Møller and the people behind Småbyg. As a counterpoint: Can any human system maintain itself without key-people?

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by jennypenny »

Ok, well thanks for replying. I gotta say though, what you both described holds zero interest for me, mostly for the same reasons we looked at, and eventually passed on, prepper groups that have formed over the last few years. Too insular and too focused on 'not dying' as opposed to 'living'.

I originally came to ERE1 because it struck me as an island of misfit toys ... independent people with the similar goals but going about it in very different ways. The longer and deeper ERE goes, the narrower and more stifling it sounds. I get having some barriers to entry, but I have no desire to hang/live with people who are all the same. I'd rather live in a diverse group where there are people who might not pull their weight wrt finances or weeding the garden but can cook amazing meals from scratch or entertain the group nightly with their guitar playing.

I wish everyone luck.

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by daylen »

@jennypenny

Why do vision and diversity need to be mutually exclusive?

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by AxelHeyst »

jennypenny wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:24 pm
I originally came to ERE1 because it struck me as an island of misfit toys ... independent people with the similar goals but going about it in very different ways. The longer and deeper ERE goes, the narrower and more stifling it sounds. I get having some barriers to entry, but I have no desire to hang/live with people who are all the same. I'd rather live in a diverse group where there are people who might not pull their weight wrt finances or weeding the garden but can cook amazing meals from scratch or entertain the group nightly with their guitar playing.
That sounds great. Sounds like a fine, brief description of a possible ERE2 group of folks.

ERE1 is based on principles of diversity, loose coupling, etc etc. I'm not sure why you think we'd go from that to unitarian insularity? Again: ERE2 is *not* an insular group composed entirely of similarly-minded ERE1 hardcore weirdos. I don't know what it is, but it is not a bunch of INTJs sitting around not talking except in brief dense bursts of info-dense jargon. That sounds terrible.

Part of the point of this thread is for us to flesh out some of these ideas. To make it clear - to ourselves at least! - that we're not after some narrow or stifling thing. And we need all the voices we can get to make sure we don't accidentally do that.

I'm grateful that you've pointed out that however we've described it so far sounds insular and narrow to you. We've got work to do to make sure we figure out how to communicate the opposite.

If you're over it, I get it, but can you point to what about our replies specifically gives you the vibe of narrow and insular, and all-the-sameness? I reread the last few posts and I don't see it. I'd really like to understand how I'm inadvertently dog-whistling for the Borg.

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by jennypenny »

daylen wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:50 pm
Why do vision and diversity need to be mutually exclusive?
They don't, unless the vision is unnecessarily narrow so as to exclude most people.

How many active users have there been over the last 10 years, many of whom have come to the forum excitedly proclaiming 'I've found my tribe". And how many are left discussing ERE2 ideas? 4? 5?

I'm sure someone will post a chart or new WL showing how it's because most of us just need to level up to understand what's being discussed. I'd argue that a lot the long-timers understand but feel it's not where they thought ERE was headed, or where they'd like to go themselves. It feels wrong ... like the kind of thing I fled 10 years ago when I found ERE.

Look, this is jacob's playground and it's wrong for me to shit on his ideas here. I wish everyone well. Truly. But I have nothing further to add.

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by daylen »

But you can't have most people without also having the corresponding some people that are not in the majority(*). A society without ISTJ's, INTJ's, ESFP's or any other "type" doesn't work. Diversity is married to exclusivity of traits and ways of talking/interacting/contributing.

A constrained yet encompassing perspective of what society is and the freedom of the individual to be unique within it go hand in hand.

(*) Inversely, some people cannot exist without most people.

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by daylen »

ERE is biased towards INTJ. There are also groups or clubs that bias towards all the other types. There could be 2, 16, or 100 types.. depending on how granular you want to look. I think it is reasonable to assume that across a wide range of type scopes, particular types group together and come to do their thing in a way that extends to how they are going to change the world. It is likely worth keeping in mind that the world is also going to change the group in return.

Over space or the surface of earth, blobs of a sufficient size will contain a fairly standard distribution of the types. A more granular type view will require a larger blob to arrive at the attractor. Perhaps the entire world is continuously arriving at an attractor in a higher dimensionality of culture (for now given our collective memory is stable).

There are all sorts of smaller blobs that are not quite as diverse yet still add to the overall diversity (i.e. diversity of scales). I don't know about you all, but I like the idea of subtly nudging the world (and learning myself in the process) towards a playground/office/bar/farm/etc that is accommodating for my type as well as everyone else's type. That would be ideal and perhaps a bit utopic but in modesty idealism may be essential to our success.. whatever that means. Point being that we could start reframing more towards an inclusion of groups across many scales that perhaps are not doing what we perceive as ERE. Though, this may be antithetical to preserving what ERE is at the individual scale.

I think this is what Jennypenny and others were getting at in part and what I was touching on earlier. The traveling musicians hold an important key to whatever game b is. As well as the monks, the mystics, the pastors, the nurses, etc.. what do the more exclusive clubs led by these roles look like? How can we cooperate with what we see as well-intentioned clubs? To what extent should we distance ourselves from what we see at not well-intentioned clubs?

At the local scale, what kinds of clubs appear around you? For instance, I work part-time at a Chabad house as a cook. In some sense I would say the community around the Chabad is ERE2 in that they are well-connected with other Chabad houses around the world and regularly have festive events.
Last edited by daylen on Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by AxelHeyst »

Hey JP, it's fine if you don't want to respond if you're done here, but you raise some interesting points that I'd like to respond to because I want to make sure there is no confusion for people reading this thread in the future.
jennypenny wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:15 pm
They don't, unless the vision is unnecessarily narrow so as to exclude most people.

How many active users have there been over the last 10 years, many of whom have come to the forum excitedly proclaiming 'I've found my tribe". And how many are left discussing ERE2 ideas? 4? 5?
I think you're referring to the vision for this forum? (The ERE2 vision is for humans to maintain their ability to keep on human-ing throughout time, inclusive of activities like cooking and strumming guitars, so I assume you mean 'the vision of what the purpose of this forum is'). It seems like you think there's one singular vision for this forum. I think you are mistaken.

The vision isn't for the forum to just talk about ERE2, which appears to be your concern. (?) The vision is for this board to have enough space for both ERE1 and ERE2 discussion.

There appear to be people who want ERE 1 and 2 discussion to happen here, and people who want just ERE1 content to happen here. There are no people who want just ERE2 content to happen here.

I think it's kind of messed up to want ERE2 content to not exist here. There is a lot of ERE1 stuff happening here (especially now that we've begun to reverse the MMG-caused darknetting effect), and if people want even more, great! Start more threads! There's plenty of room.

And we've had a good heart to heart about how it's bad form to waltz into an ERE1 thread and spew ERE2 stuff. That ought to be dying down now that we've all had a chance to digest what was happening there.

In short, the vision for this community isn't getting more narrow. It's getting less narrow.

This is Jacob's playground, but he's not a tyrant. He's not sitting over there yelling at people to get off the swingset. (He did block off the monkey bars (politics), but that's another discussion). He's totally cool with the swingset people, in fact he wants them to keep doing their swingy thing. He just happens to be fascinated with the slide right now. And there are some other slide-obsessed people. If the swingset people want to come check out the slide, cool. If they want to keep swinging and ignore the slide, also cool. No one is tapping their foot impatiently, making snide remarks about the swingset people for not being advanced enough to realize how dope the slide is. The slide people don't want to tear down everything except the slide. That would be terrible! Yay slides and yay swingsets!

That is all I wanted to make sure is clear.

ETA: A similar situation is that there are a lot of people on this forum who do not participate in the investing threads because they are not well enough educated to participate. That very much includes me. That's all right. I'm fine with those threads existing, even though every time I see one it reminds me that I'm less well read than the people who know what a CAPE is. (On that note, I don't see anyone asking the investing nerds to stop using jargon like P/E, CAPE, securitization, yield inversion, etc...). Why the inclusivity of investing but not ERE2? I suspect just because it's new. Investing is baked in to the ERE1 canon from the beginning. Community-building was not baked in from the beginning. So there's an immune response occurring. Understandable. But the ERE community organism is robust enough to enfold ERE2 (aka community-centric discussion) into what this place is. I feel.

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by jacob »

jennypenny wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:15 pm
How many active users have there been over the last 10 years, many of whom have come to the forum excitedly proclaiming 'I've found my tribe". And how many are left discussing ERE2 ideas? 4? 5?
Ten years is a long time when it comes to social trends. ERE1 is about 14 years old now. ERE2 is about 1 year old and just a young puppy. If I compare ERE2 in 2022 to ERE1 in 2008, having four or five "actives" is not bad at all. The various other sites in the metacrisis space have about the same number of actives and they've been at it for years.

The reason I don't think having a separate ERE2 space with a more seriously sounding name is that the potential number of interested people is much larger here than it would in the internet at large... or even in the metacrisis space as ERE is materially more practically oriented than the rest of the space.

I think ERE is still a tribe of misfits. What's happening is that a new tribe of "misfitting misfits" seem to be forming within the existing tribe of misfits. Previously, I could group the forum into two groups. Call them "advanced FIRE" and "ERE". They seemed to co-exist fine aside from endlessly debating whether to "just make more money vs learning to DIY". Now there's a third group. Call it "post-ERE". Maybe the problem is that it's punching above its weight and being too loud? Maybe it's the same feeling as if the forum was invaded by threads about getting out of debt, the snowball method, and how to save 10% on your car insurance. I can see that. However, I suspect the friction comes down to whether the focus was/is on finding a tribe who happens to be misfits vs finding a space for misfits who happen to form tribes (perhaps excluding via jargon even if not deliberately) beyond a critical density.

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by jennypenny »

If you want to make things clear for people reading this thread later on, then I'll respond to a misconception ...
AxelHeyst wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:50 pm
The vision isn't for the forum to just talk about ERE2, which appears to be your concern. (?) The vision is for this board to have enough space for both ERE1 and ERE2 discussion.
No, that's not my concern. This isn’t about whether people discuss ERE1 or ERE2 or both/neither. It’s about the direction of ERE2 specifically. It feels wrong to me … and not just the narrow scope, overuse of jargon, clique-ish vibe, etc. It feels like there was a wrong turn somewhere.

How is it that suddenly (over the last year) most of the active forum members feel like they aren't interested in going any deeper on the ERE path anymore? It's not because our collective IQ dropped or we've decided we want to rejoin the rat race. Something is off. Those lost forumites have tried in different ways to explain why things feel off but always get met with walls of text instead of open-mindedness or thoughtful reconsideration of some of the issues. I thought Horsewoman did a good job of explaining it in the darknetting thread, but I could tell by the subsequent replies that people didn't understand what she said, thinking it was still about comprehension.

I have no problem with the tenets of ERE1 but if the goal is to (hopefully) funnel people towards ERE2, I can’t really support it or recommend it anymore. It doesn't lead to a healthy place. I feel like my epitaph here should read “I was mislead.”


------


eta: @jacob -- I don't think ERE2 needs a separate space. My point is that if it can't drum up interest in this space, maybe it needs some retooling.

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by daylen »

jennypenny wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:24 pm
I have no problem with the tenets of ERE1 but if the goal is to (hopefully) funnel people towards ERE2..
The way I see it, the path is deconstructing itself. Instead of just being a guide/community for how INTJ's decouple from the economy/culture/society, ERE also becoming a guide/community for reintegrating back with the economy/culture/society. It is a system that generates paths and is becoming aware of their reversabilities, perhaps. Allowing some degree of ideological safety that avoids harm associated with false promises of false trails leading to false rewards. Perhaps we should work on making the limitations of ERE more explicit at each turn. This is partially conveyed through the school analogy and WL chart itself.

Perhaps not so much funneling as allowing? We are but an emergent niche attempting to stay "open" for the good of the "whole". However we prefer to conceptualize.. we are much closer than we would often like to admit on a shared vision of what "reality" is and how we "should" act within it (and I am talking about humanity here).

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by jacob »

jennypenny wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:24 pm
eta: @jacob -- I don't think ERE2 needs a separate space. My point is that if it can't drum up interest in this space, maybe it needs some retooling.
But [ERE2] does drum up interest in this space. It's just not for everybody yet.

And from my perspective, that's just par for the course. As dismissive as it may sound---but I really don't know a better metaphor---this is not my first "the forum has changed too much, I'm side-lining myself until [it changes back]"-rodeo. The more things change, the more they stay the same. After a while, one comes to accept pattern as the state of things. I dunno, perhaps there's a kind of magic where this doesn't need to happen, but I don't know how to bring it about. I can only say that I've seen it happen several times before over the years. I don't think this crisis is different than from what has gone before.

Whenever I complained about managing the forum, several people have suggested that I should go back to writing white papers. Attractive as this sounds, having those ERE1 conversations on the forum were also instrumental to getting more people to actually grok ERE1 (as explained in the book). I mainly write to be understood. However, a book is not enough to be understood. Understanding is also not instantaneous. Someone can take years before reaching a point where their current perspective becomes untenable or unsatisfactory. If that takes a lifetime, which is the case for many, they're golden and will die satisfied.

For almost a decade, most of the forum was in "failure mode" (as explained in the Stoa2 talk) as far as ERE1 was concerned. "Who diz web of goals?" "Why should I do anything myself when I can just earn more money?" "I'm already using systems theory because I have a system of accounts and pensions so I'm good thank you very much." Basically, the forum served as platform for those who had made it to the WL4-5 plateau while finding the intellectual/extreme tone somewhat inspiring compared to the rest of the FIRE-sphere yet not seeing the point of thinking beyond the "just make more money and spend it better"-framework.

The COVID lockdowns were a wake-up call for many. Suddenly ERE1 made more sense than advanced-FIRE. While ERE1 had existed for years, many just didn't see the value in it and so they largely ignored it until it bit them in the proverbial ass. This is sometimes what it takes and often one just has to wait for that. The forum underwent what could justifiably called a phase-shift in values and methods. There was now a critical mass of ERE1 and enough to begin discussing ERE2. And so that's what happened a few years ago.

Currently, the forum focus is in a failure mode (again Stoa2---failure mode basically means adopting a cafeteria style towards a new paradigm instead of adopting the complete menu) as far as ERE2 is concerned just as it used to be wrt ERE1. "Why do I care about other people being ERE1? I'm good!" "I just want people to continue consuming so my investments keep paying!" "If I want diversity I already can find it in my existing community/ies." However, it remains turtles all the way down. It's just that ERE2 adds a new turtle in order to be ready in case the individualistic ERE1 breaks. Just like ERE1 was ready for when FIRE touched its breaking point during the lockdowns.

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by AxelHeyst »

Some thoughts related to the OP topic of what an ERE2 lifestyle/group/holon might look like, mostly scraping together thoughts so far in the thread. In retrospect, the thread title should probably be "Examples of what an ERE2 Holon Would Look Like".
  • An ERE2 Holon is defined as a group of people who are related in some way, that has a minimum percentage of ERE1 people such that their WoGs are connected. The minimum percentage is maybe 25%. The point is that the holon arises when enough ERE1 WoG's connect to generate emergent group behavior, and the group is defined as not just the ERE1 people but also the people that the ERE1 people are in relation with.
  • An ERE2 Holon might be difficult to point at. It might not have a website, a name, or a fb page. It's possible an ERE2 Holon could exist where no one *in* the holon knows they're actually in a holon, they just know something cool is going on that Is Different from Most People's Experience. This would happen when that threshold of ERE1 WoG's coming together happened not by design but by accident. One possible reason is because there are people who have WoG's but have never heard of ERE, they're just OG like that, so they don't have a framework or jargon to say things like "oh hey lol we're forming an ERE2 Holon", but the effect we're pointing at happens regardless.
  • Thus, it would not be an exclusive club. You would not need to show your "Third Party Verified WL7" badge at the door. There probably isn't a door or even the idea of a club, although there could be.
  • I'm not sure about this, but: There might be no group-shared goal. Prepper communities have a shared goal of surviving the zombie apocalypse, for example. An ERE2 Holon might not have anything like this. Or an ERE2 Holon might evolve to have one, but that's not a necessary condition.
  • If ERE2 Holons DO have group-shared goals, because group-shared goals turn out to be necessary for the formation of the holon, the group-shared goal of one ERE2 Holon won't necessarily be the same as that of another.
  • The only universal, aka meta, group-shared goal of all the ERE2 Holons is the same as any group of humans: to keep on human-ing, with as much individual and group autonomy/freedom-of-action as possible. This is a very western/American way of saying it. I mean people want to live they way they want to live. Americans like to imagine they're rugged individualists. Europeans would put it more like... well I don't know how to put it without sounding ignorant or getting it wrong. They'd be more concerned about group cohesion? But that's the way they'd tend to want to live. Etc for all the various flavors of 'we want to live the way we want to live.'
  • I think there's a lot in David Fleming's work that points to what an ERE2 holon would look like. Slack, carnival, the art of idleness/leisure, knowing your neighbor, trust bonds (as opposed to fiat currency trustless transactions).
  • Speaking of, Fleming talks a lot about how some of the elements of his Lean Economy idea are unstable when the market economy still exists, such as working less. Any group unit that wants to survive while the market still exists will have to invent some kinds of intentional social controls to make working less a stable dynamic within the group. So, part of what ERE2 Holon life looks like is group governance. Hashing out the rules of how the group functions in a stable way.
  • That might mean that the holon must be self-aware. Or at least at some point it has to become self-aware. Maybe it's possible for the holon to become a holon accidentally, but soon after it becomes aware of itself or it collapses back into a heap. [The link to Holons article explains how I mean the word 'heap'. A heap is just a pile of components with no emergent properties. A holon is when a pile of components becomes a new Thing.]

Hm, in fact,
  • Individual ERE1 lifestyles might not look or feel terribly different to the individual. AKA life as an ERE1 component of the world we all live in now might not feel terribly different than life as a component of an ERE2 Holon.
  • We're all currently part of group holons that aren't ERE2. Membership of an ERE2 Holon might just mean there's a bit less of the friction we're all familiar with. You're seen as a bit less weird. You don't have to lie/fudge what you do all day because you're 35 and don't 'have a j*b', because that's pretty normal to the group.
  • You collaborate on projects more, because there's more people around you who also don't have j*bs and have time and competence to be involved.
  • You probably work on projects that are greater-than-household scale than you used to: a neighborhood power distribution system, a greenhouse for the whole block, you're in a band with neighbors, you help teach at the community unschool, etc.
Oh, in fact, maybe it's helpful to say that you don't need to be at a high WL to be in an ERE2 Holon. The relationship between the WL table and ERE2 is that WL's point at your level of engagement with, and understanding of, the ERE2 holon.

I'm 'in' the holon of American style representative democracy, even though I don't understand how it works barely, and am certainly not competent to effect/engage with it. I'm WL2.

Similarly, an ERE2 Holon is going to be composed of all kinds of people, ranging from WL1/0 all the way to WL9+. Membership in the ERE2 Holon has to do with your relation to the unit that is emergent when enough WoGs interact with each other. If I pulled off spinning up an ERE2 Holon here in the Mojave, my parents would be in the holon and my buddy in town would be in the holon due to their relationship to me and the effects of what that holon does in the world.

The higher WL you are, the more engaged you are with the ERE2 holon. You understand it better, and you have some role in guiding/changing/forming/etc it.

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Ego
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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by Ego »

From the start this place skewed in the direction of the theoretical over the practical. There are not many (any?) plumbers or electricians here.

ERE2 is nuclear powered theory. The practicality of ERE2 is hard to see. Precisely why so few examples of ERE2 lifestyles have been presented in this thread.

Jacob literally has a Phd in theoretical physics. He obviously loves to think about and talk about theories. But he has actually done shit too.

For others, talking about theories is the perfect distraction from doing ERE1 shit. That fact makes it hard for some of us to read and engage with the ERE2 walls of words.

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