Avoiding smartphones

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chenda
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Avoiding smartphones

Post by chenda »

Once we had phones which just did calls, texts and entertained us with snake. I was happy with this.

But smart phones are becoming impossible to avoid. Online banking, for example, now requires I enter a special code which can only be generated via their special app. Everyone wants to talk in Whatsapp groups. Covid passes and vaccination records get generated on apps. Tickets are always online. Directions are sent online via google maps.

I hate smart phones. They are expensive, fragile and made on the back of child labour. How do we avoid this ?

slsdly
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Re: Avoiding smartphones

Post by slsdly »

I have minimum smartphone influence in my life, but it is still there. I just try to keep the phone running for as long as possible -- mine is a 2013 phone that I run LineageOS on to still get security updates. The touchscreen is starting to go, and even the LineageOS updates run out next year as my phone couldn't be ported to the next major version (closed drivers, sigh).

My social circle mostly uses Signal and email now. At least I almost exclusively use the desktop client after setting up initially on a phone. I have a VoIP service that can send/receive SMS for terrible 2FA -- I can use the phone as a phone with it, but I often take my calls at my desk via the computer.

I'm debating what I will replace the phone with when it finally gives out. Probably a Fairphone, possibly a Pinephone (but probably too early still). Not the cheapest option, would be financially better to get some disposable cheap Motorola phone every few years or something. I want something that will be able to run mobile Linux instead of Android one day, with as open drivers as possible so that my software support doesn't go out the window. Replaceable battery since that is often the first thing to die.

ffj
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Re: Avoiding smartphones

Post by ffj »

The Amish around me do a good job of avoiding them. A lot of them run businesses that require a phone but they will opt for old style flip phones that literally only make phone calls and perform texts so I know they are available.

Now, regarding businesses and apps, buying tickets online, etc. unfortunately that ship has sailed. Same for having a credit card. You can opt out of having both a smart phone and a credit card but you will get punished for it through major inconveniences. But I'm old enough to remember when none of these technologies existed and we still managed to get around and communicate.

If you would like a realistic view on how entrenched we are in technology with total lack of privacy then research how to go off the grid. For fun, imagine you would have to remove all traces of yourself from society. Good luck. I would posit that it is almost impossible in the long term. By not having a smart phone you are more identifiable than having one.

slsdly
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Re: Avoiding smartphones

Post by slsdly »

I would guess that not having a phone might make you more interesting to hypothetical computers analyzing our behaviours, so they might pay you special attention ;). I would say that mine is always left at home in my day to day. I don't have a data plan on it, and my PAYG is incredibly expensive for text/voice. I take it for emergencies if I leave the city and for adding a 30 day data plan for hotspotting on very rare occasions.

M
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Re: Avoiding smartphones

Post by M »

I avoided them for years and years. I finally bought one to save money. Yes. I bought a smartphone to save money.

I had a rental property. Tenant insisted on paying by check. My bank has mobile deposit, but only using the smartphone app. I bought an old used smartphone on Ebay. The gas savings paid for the phone.

Nowadays I can't avoid them. I literally need one to login to work, login to bank account, etc, etc.

You can own a smartphone without using it in the same way most people use their smartphones. This is what I do now. I buy old used smartphone on ebay. The depreciation rate on smartphones is absurdly high. You can buy an old used one for 30-50 dollars. People would normally throw these things away anyway so I don't feel bad at all from an environmental perspective.

Then buy red pocket annual plan for $2.50 /month off ebay. Just search for red pocket on ebay. It is 30 dollars for one year. Then put Google voice on phone. Whenever you have WiFi you now have unlimited voice and text.

I don't put any social media, video streaming, etc on the phone. I don't use it much, but it has replaced several other devices. For example I don't own any cameras, video recorders, audio recorders, GPS systems, etc. I just use the phone for all these functions..

They are nearly impossible to avoid these days but you CAN control how you use them. Used correctly they can save you money and you can think of them like a flip phone plus.

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unemployable
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Re: Avoiding smartphones

Post by unemployable »

I'm always skeptical of these exercises. Technology is neutral and how much of it you use is a choice. You've already implied you're perfectly fine with some level of 21st-century phone technology.

My current phone plan cost me around $5/month, prepaid for a year including the phone. In the US this kind of deal is easy to find. I can swing that. When it breaks or I lose it or whatever I buy another one -- likely the next service plan I buy will come with another new phone even. Last time I switched phones there was some sort of procedure that copied all my apps and accounts over to the new one. As for "fragile" -- more fragile than say a laptop or camera? Easier to lose than keys and wallets? I find them to be on the same order of other objects of similar size and importance in my life.

If your government wants to find you it'll find you. Mine found the Unabomber; they found Eric Rudolph dumpster diving after dozens of FBI agents searched for years with helicopters and infrared cameras; they found the guy who lived in the Maine wilderness for 27 years. Not that I'd call breaking into cabins for food living "off-the-grid". See also Alexander Supertramp, who probably also did that, and who also was eventually "found".

You can make it harder for people, especially those who don't have the force of government behind them, to connect the dots. One is to use completely different names on the various internet fora and social media you participate on. Are you "chenda" or say "chenda74" anywhere else? Well you've blown your cover. I've stalked people this way, such as ex-girlfriends who thought they could say shit about me without my knowing.

Much of the work involving staying relatively anonymous doesn't involve technology, or like the username thing isn't specific to technology. Most people, when they buy a house, put it in their name rather than that of an LLC or a trust. And get mail there, rather than at a PO box. Oh and apartment leases are very easy to fake and if you're using them as proof of residency I've never seen them verified. Or just get South Dakota residency and claim wherever else you want to live is "temporary". These are not ways to completely hide, but they are extra layers of privacy.

In recent months I've needed to download apps to use event tickets and a bikeshare at a state park. I have Venmo to accept rent payments. When I get a check for something I use my brokerage app (my brokerage account serves as my "bank") to photograph and deposit it. All these make my life immensely easier than the before times, when I had to meet people in person to exchange tickets, or wait for checks to come in the mail which I then had to drive to Denver to deposit in person. I don't want to go back to doing any of that.

But I don't use Facebook or Instagram or Twitter or Tiktok, other than to register my name to keep someone else from taking it -- and I have filters on my browser to prevent them from creating a profile for me anyway, which Facebook does otherwise. I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything; I mean I ascribe none of my life's disappointments from not being on those things, and others have mentioned substitutes. I tried having a fake Facebook account, got bored after a few days. Google I'm sure has a pretty thorough profile of me, but so what? I'm among billions. My travels may look interesting, especially by absence when I go out of range, but otherwise I think I'd be pretty boring to them. Hiding in plain sight.

I can't do anything about the "child labor" complaint, assuming it's even true. But what about the clothes you're wearing, the TV you watch, the bike you ride (many are made in China now), the various trinkets you have around your home... or is the point to go completely ascetic beyond whining on the Internet about phones? And phones use plastic, which come from oil, ermahgerd climate change!

Point is the most reasonable approach is to embrace the aspects of technology that truly do make your life easier. No one's forcing you to do any more than that.

chenda
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Re: Avoiding smartphones

Post by chenda »

M wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:29 am
They are nearly impossible to avoid these days but you CAN control how you use them. Used correctly they can save you money and you can think of them like a flip phone plus.
Yes that's true, and there is a lot of efficiency in the market with people upgrading every year, so buying a second hand 'outdated' phone is a lot cheaper and does the job just fine.

@unemployable - I don't have a problem with technology, nor am I trying to hide from anyone. I just resent been forced into buying something I don't really need or otherwise value. For child labour see cobalt mining in Africa.

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unemployable
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Re: Avoiding smartphones

Post by unemployable »

chenda wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:31 pm
@unemployable - I don't have a problem with technology, nor am I trying to hide from anyone. I just resent been forced into buying something I don't really need or otherwise value. For child labour see cobalt mining in Africa.
Your original post, including the title, came across as "phone bad" and I tend to Nagasaki that shit.

I certainly didn't like paying $50/month ($15k at an imputed 4% withdrawal rate) for something I derived far less benefit than that from, but it was one of the easier costs to reduce at no reduction in utility, and is now one of the more tolerable baseline living expenditures I make.

Cobalt lithium-ion batteries are in most EVs, including electric buses and trains, so I'm not sure how that affects your transportation decisions. Not to mention storage facilities for solar and wind energy.

ffj
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Re: Avoiding smartphones

Post by ffj »

Sidebar:


"If your government wants to find you it'll find you. Mine found the Unabomber; they found Eric Rudolph dumpster diving after dozens of FBI agents searched for years with helicopters and infrared cameras; they found the guy who lived in the Maine wilderness for 27 years. Not that I'd call breaking into cabins for food living "off-the-grid". See also Alexander Supertramp, who probably also did that, and who also was eventually "found"."

I thought Ted's brother turned him in, a beat cop caught Rudolph rummaging a a dumpster by chance one night, didn't the residents set video traps for the Maine dude? and I'm not sure where you are going with SuperTramp?

Not a challenge, just curious.

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unemployable
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Re: Avoiding smartphones

Post by unemployable »

ffj wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:05 pm
Not a challenge, just curious.
Ted's brother tipped the FBI off that the manifesto read like his style. I believe the FBI used mailing records to locate him in Montana and then started asking around. They were definitely the ones who surveilled and found him.

Eric Rudolph pretty much wanted to get caught; there is suspicion family and friends helped him stay at large. It was a local cop but I still count that.

Someone mentioned the off-grid ethic so I brought up Chris McCandless, who probably wasn't as "off-grid" as he is as glamorized to have been. And who could've taken better advantage of the "grid" to keep from dying.

I was (and am) going off on a tangent with all that, and @chenda didn't directly bring up the surveillance aspect of smartphones anyway. (Nor is it my intent to equate him with terrorist bombers.) But the very act of trying to stay 100% anonymous does arouse suspicion, and most criminals, who have far more to lose than do those of us pursuing privacy as an intellectual exercise, make a mistake somewhere or give up the fight. See also the mobsters behind the California bank robbery or Pierre Hotel Robbery, both in 1972, who got so close to covering all their tracks. You could try leaving the country, which is working for Eric Snowdon... so far...

Most of us accept smartphones do a lot to make our lives easier, better and more enjoyable. Loss of privacy, which can be controlled but not completely eliminated, is one price we pay for it.

chenda
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Re: Avoiding smartphones

Post by chenda »

unemployable wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:51 pm
Your original post, including the title, came across as "phone bad" and I tend to Nagasaki that shit.
Nothing against phones. Just like to be able to buy one for £20 rather than £100.
unemployable wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:51 pm
Cobalt lithium-ion batteries are in most EVs, including electric buses and trains,
I rarely use either. Not that I am particularly boycotting Colbalt but its just another reason not to own one. OT but circa 2010 when smartphones were starting to become a thing there were a number of cargo aircraft crashes caused by the lithium batteries auto-igniting in the hold. I think they were stacked too close together and the radiating heat caused the ignition.

By coincidence I am writing a story about a petty criminal who has to lay low for a while and disappear. It became necessary to set the storey at least 20 years ago to make the plotline vaguely plausible. Getting lost on the moors, running out of fuel and having to knock on the door of a creepy old house to ask to use the phone is all a bit implausible in a world of satnavs, mobiles and google maps. And social media was just an unnecessary complication.

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Re: Avoiding smartphones

Post by jacob »

This thread has made me realize that my supposed moral opposition to smartphones is mostly about price plus the fact that I've always hated talking on the phone. There isn't that much focus on that particular part of the consumer Venn diagram. Most people seem to like talking on the phone and don't mind paying $50/month to do so.

I actually own 2 smartphones. People keep giving them to me. That is, they give them to DW and then she gives them to me. However, I never bothered to connect to anything but wifi, and I avoided phone numbers because that could lead people to calling me: "If it's that important, send me an email!" I've basically used my smartphones as pocket-sized laptops with a missing keyboard. Better than nothing, but not much. Try reading a 600 page pdf on an iPhone :-P

However, the continued app'ification of information and transactions does mean that navigating life without a smartphone is increasingly inconvenient. It has come to the point where if you don't have a smartphone, then you need a printer. And you need to plan in advance. E.g. to get on a bus, you need to print out a bus ticket before leaving home, because in some places ticket vending machines are gone from both the stations and the buses as a cost-saving measure because 95% of everybody is just using the app. Oh, and don't forget to print out the plan for when the bus arrives, because that's gone too. Basically, parts of reality are poorer because they have relocated to an "augmented reality" that you can't see without a smartphone.

The Red Pocket plan above seems to fit my bill in the cases where you need to flash a QR code as proof of purchase to some other smartphone based system ... or where you're literally standing in a hotel lobby trying to book a room for the "online price" because the price at the desk is $40 more and the clerk can't or doesn't know any other way.

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Sclass
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Re: Avoiding smartphones

Post by Sclass »

chenda wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:29 am
I hate smart phones. They are expensive, fragile and made on the back of child labour. How do we avoid this ?
I hate expensive smartphones. There’s a lot to hate.

My wife had a similar reaction to mobile phones in 2000. She used to call them slave tools.

They’re just tools at the end of the day.

Like guns. And knives. And hammers.

ETA - oh I forgot to answer the original question. How do we avoid this? I use Google voice with a number. I have it hooked to a voip line but really it doesn’t need to be connected to anything. Give out this number. Receive calls on a PC. Txt messages. Voicemail. Looks just like a phone without being a physical phone. It’s a free country, you can still live smart phone free if you choose. I think it is just a tool like a hammer. I don’t love hammers and I don’t hate them. I have a few in my shop.

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unemployable
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Re: Avoiding smartphones

Post by unemployable »

unemployable wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:34 pm
You could try leaving the country, which is working for [Edward] Snowd[e]n... so far...
Snowden 1, America 0

Myakka
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Re: Avoiding smartphones

Post by Myakka »

I know one way of avoiding smartphones. Unfortunately, I expect that it is not generally reproducable. It is to be a wife and let your husband take care of those nasty phone needing things.

He likes phones better anyway and is the one who cares about event tickets.

I hate phones :P

recal
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Re: Avoiding smartphones

Post by recal »

I read through the thread and I think most of you are coming out ahead of the smartphone game. Not sure about everyone's ages here, but I
usually suggest transforming your smartphone into a useful tool and not using it as a fun device. It seems all of you are talking about it as a tool already! This could be a reflection of a generation gap.

As far as the financial part of it goes, I'm not sure the cheap Motorolas are better than the nice phones. I went on cheap Motorolas for years and they'd die within 2 years, keeping the cost at about $100 USD per year, not counting my data plan. I've now had a Samsung Galaxy S10 for 3 years that's nowhere near death. I actually do find them to be useful and convenient, but again, this may be my age. Anyway, I'd buy a used nice phone someone's trying to get rid of, do a battery refresh, and hold onto it for a couple of years. You just have to worry about updates (the lack of them, this is a security concern and apps may stop supporting your older device. This won't happen for 5-7 years though).

I even do my taxes on my smartphone. But here's the thing -- I don't use computers anymore. I own 2 I got for free that are 10 years old, and after they die, I'll keep one around just because sometimes you need it... (Same way some of you feel about smartphones!)

My point is: Smartphones, computers, two sides of the same coin. Pick your poison.

Use in moderation, buy used or great quality new, use them as a tool, and get a cheap, probably prepaid plan. (I don't have an answer to this last bit because due to my age, I am and will probably for decades be on a group plan with my family where it's cheaper for us to share than to separate.)

@slsdly -- Thanks for the tip about Fairphone! I hadn't heard of this before and will keep an eye on this company.

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