What do you miss from your pre ERE life?

[ertyu]

I guess growing up, one learns a set of social skills ultimately premised on one being similar to one's peers: being of roughly the same socioeconomic standing, ethnicity, politics/values, sexual orientation, etc. There were kids richer than me in high school, but I didn't hang out with those kids, they hung out with each other and had a different set of values, e.g. about the importance of appearance, brand clothes, etc. The social skills I developed were the social skills that allowed me to function well within that group -- and I did, I had a cool group of metalhead friends in high school and was one of those people whose high school social experience wasn't a living hell.

ERE requires you to have a set of social skills where you are different from other people. So, to successfully combine ERE and a social life with your older cohort, you need a new set of social skills even if you have the same people as friends. Now, I am a bit of a social potato - I tend to be a loner, and I'm even possibly mildly autistic/aspie (no diagnosis, but it wouldn't suprise me if true). I never quite acquired those social skills - the ones that would allow me to be both different and liked - and heard and respected. So in my social life, my trajectory has been towards isolation. It is less painful and shame-inducing even if it means I'm deficient in the social networks component of the renaissance mesh

[M]

Hmmm...I'm not sure if I had a pre ERE life. I started working at 16 because my dad was several months behind on the mortgage and I had to pay it or be homeless. When I first moved out I immediately bought a house and paid it off due to this same anxiety about being homeless. Then came the anxiety about what if I lost my job? ERE was more about finding the answer to these money anxieties.

I guess, when I was 15, I never worried or thought about money. I kind of miss being blissfully unaware of money.

In terms of relationships, I simply don't talk about money. Most of my social circle has no idea. For the few who realize I drive an old beat up car and make six figures and have questions I just tell them I contribute a lot to the 401k at work and no one has asked any questions beyond that. For most everyone else I just pretend to be broke like they are and try to relate as much as possible. People seem to understand this since my expenses may be a quarter of what I make they are about the same as the income of most of my social circle thus I appear normal. I don't outright lie about things but simply complain in the same manner they do and they seem to accept this as normal.

Of course, this does make for some very shallow, fake relationships but...they don't know that.

[candide]

Re: these stories of wrecked relationships.

Would anyone then recommend just lying?

Since I have no social media presence anymore, I think I could just not tell people I stopped teaching, when I do such a thing. If my someone asks about my holidays, etc, to plan around, I could just look online at the school calendar for my old district to answer.

Just lying would also stop people thinking my free time is therefore theirs.

ETA: I started writing this before M posted. Nice to have confirmation. Just lie, er, omit details. Most people don't really want the truth on these matters.

[candide]

Now, I am a bit of a social potato - I tend to be a loner, and I'm even possibly mildly autistic/aspie (no diagnosis, but it wouldn't suprise me if true). I never quite acquired those social skills - the ones that would allow me to be both different and liked - and heard and respected. So in my social life, my trajectory has been towards isolation. It is less painful and shame-inducing even if it means I'm deficient in the social networks component of the renaissance mesh

I feel solidarity with you. Aspie potatoes of the world unite. . . or meh, whatever.

[M]

Re: these stories of wrecked relationships.

Would anyone then recommend just lying?

Since I have no social media presence anymore, I think I could just not tell people I stopped teaching, when I do such a thing. If my someone asks about my holidays, etc, to plan around, I could just look online at the school calendar for my old district to answer.

Just lying would also stop people thinking my free time is therefore theirs.

Honestly - In my experience this depends on the maturity level of the person you're talking to. If you're honest about it with a low income immature individual then you just become 'the money guy' or 'money bags' etc and now you are just the guy they constantly beg for money or try to borrow from to buy their drugs/toys/junk food/etc. When you then tell them no they get angry because you are 'rich' and should be providing for your friends instead of telling them to get a job. This never ends well.

If someone is more mature they usually know enough about money that they don't really need or want advice anyway. Ergo it becomes a pointless conversation for both parties.

This is why I eventually just stopped talking about money except in broad generalities and mimic the same complaints everyone else has. This has generally resulted in the best outcome.

[unemployable]

Would anyone then recommend just lying?

Any relationships you have to lie to maintain aren't worth keeping.

Part of my "brand" is not to obfuscate the truth, and I suspect this trait is commonly-held among ERErs.

I forget what I've said to whom at times, and successfully lying requires one to remember the lie, so include me out on that criterion too.

That said, I have no problem with so-called "sins of omissions", vagueness, or just keeping your mouth shut.

[candide]

@M

You are speaking the gospel here, IMHO.

That said, I have no problem with so-called "sins of omissions", vagueness, or just keeping your mouth shut.

We can build on that foundation. If I went through this sin of omission strategy, I would tell my friends the truth if they directly asked, but not family. If that means my relationship with family members seems shallower, that is only true from the standpoint of authenticity. The family relationship seems more about comfort -- emotional and physical -- at least as they age. . .

All I have left on my side, really, is my mother and the chance for her to treat me as an adult with my own ideas and desires or even anything but a non-playing character ended a long time ago. As for my wife's side, what those Boomers and bougie fucks don't know won't hurt 'em.

Render unto family what is family's and unto True friendship what is True friendship.

[theanimal]

The lack of ambition aspect is very concerning to me and something I fear. In a way, it makes achieving FI seem like a fool's errand. We seek security, obtain too much and it ends up hindering us mentally/psychologically. @J+G's and @c_L posts on semi-ERE really speak to this. In that regard, if there's one thing I miss and would like to cultivate more is feeling more comfortable with uncertainty and insecurity. Like when having $2.000 in the bank made me feel like the king of the world. There's much more than that now but the nagging voice in the back of my head always suggests, "You' need security. more, more, more."

The issue with friends discussed above may be more a result of associating with salarymen versus being FI. Most of my friends work seasonally/intermittently or at least have a couple months off during the year. There are many of the same stereotypical financial complaints from their own poor decisions, but not working isn't an impediment to being friends and doesn't raise big question marks.

[ertyu]

Would anyone then recommend just lying?

Since I have no social media presence anymore, I think I could just not tell people I stopped teaching, when I do such a thing. If my someone asks about my holidays, etc, to plan around, I could just look online at the school calendar for my old district to answer.

If you do want to lie when it comes to teaching, you can always say you're teaching English courses or AP Courses to Chinese (or other Asian nationality) students online. With the time difference, all your classes will be in the middle of the night so it would be no surprise that no one ever sees you working or that yuo are free during regular local work hours. You don't get paid much and it's hard to wake up at odd hours and teach in the middle of the night, but it allows you to fulfill X family responsibility. Something like that.

[unemployable]

Or say you teach test prep. SAT, GMAT, whatever. I used to do it as a second job for one of the well-known companies and did one-on-one tutorials on the side. Against the terms of my employment but what did I just write about keeping your mouth shut. Anyway, it doesn't require much specialized knowledge or a workplace to go to. I charged $60/hour in 1997; if you went through the company I think they charged $80 and I got like $15.

[zbigi]

Like when having $2.000 in the bank made me feel like the king of the world. There's much more than that now but the nagging voice in the back of my head always suggests, "You' need security. more, more, more."

Hah, exactly same here. When I was in my twenties, I managed twice to accumulate around $20k and quit my job to pursue interests. That money would've lasted me around two years, which, when you live properly, is basically almost an eternity. I wasn't concerned about the money running out - instead, I was excited about the things I will try out during that time. Now, I have ~50-75 years of living expenses saved and I came back to work for more. It think it's because of current SWE salaries (when I was younger, SWE salaries were much lower, so the siren call was much weaker) and also kind of a general burnout.

[jacob]

Also consider personal development. People change at different rates. Some don't change very much---arrested development by the end of high school. You can learn how to communicate over a wide range just like you can learn how to talk to children. Perhaps you can "bond" over things by remembering past stages, like how you felt when you were 10 or how you felt when you were "passionate about your job".

People will not necessarily change at the same rate. As such people will drift or separate in development. There will therefore be conversations and concerns that become impossible to relate with 100% fidelity and the strategy for this is usually to attempt some translation.

If one does not find one's younger self a particularly interesting person because one has matured out of range, it should not be surprising that the same holds for friends, colleagues, etc.

To wit, just looking at the ERE Wheaton levels, you're probably mostly excited by conversations around your primary focus, because this is how you think, and this is why these are your talking points. You can somewhat talk about previous stages but further stages generally seem like "hippie talk". Note that this is scheme is not just for ERE but with thinking in general. The table is just a concrete example.

For example, professionally, most adults will be focused either on how they can become better at their job or how they can be promoted to a better job. Their job is something they ARE. When your perspective on work is something you HAVE, you're having a conversation with a fish who doesn't see the water. You can talk about swimming, but you can't ever mention the water.

Most adults will divide themselves into two groups. Other adults who focus on bettering themselves at their jobs or getting a new one, and kids and teenagers who focus on superheroes, friends, and stupid drama. Post-ERE, you're in a third group. Your interest in the former two will be about the same; they will be equally unrelateable.

[AxelHeyst]

"The higher your vibe, the smaller your tribe". The importance and difficulty of finding and cultivating your tribe increases as you get wierder. Also, the importance and difficulty of finding new / different things to care or be ambitious about.

I'm not FI and I'm still newish to ERE (<3yrs), but so far what I *don't* miss about preERE life was how I could sense my ambition and desire beginning to gutter out. I'm at the end phase of ERE praxis being shiny and new though (dear God I will never again draw a wl7 wog for as long as I live), but I sense a rich world out there yet to discover and explore, that's been opened up by ERE. It'll be interesting to check back in on this post in 5 and 10 years and see how I feel about 2022Axel's perspective.

[Jean]

I must be very lucky with my friends.

[7Wannabe5]

I kind of miss being more clueless about resource depletion, climate change, ...the general predicament. I'm kind of on the fence between the warm color (individualist) and cool color (collectivist) trip up the spiral, so my perspective on ethics (to the extent that I live by them...probably average at best) is that personal responsibility applies equally to consumption and production. So, I would feel crappier living off of $10,000 year Exxon dividends than $10,000 year tutoring underserved minority kids in math for 8 hours/week.

So, in a weird way (although my tendency towards maximizing being a slacker has been lifelong so I may be overstating the matter) some of the knowledge I have gained through this forum has actually made it more difficult for me to achieve FI, because reframed the 'goal' as more challenging. My current financial situation is no better, perhaps even slightly worse, than when I first joined the forum, so either it hasn't worked for me, or (more likely) I haven't worked for it (sigh.)

OTOH, since I don't have a big chunk of cash to barricade with my slacker semi-ERE approach, it has been relatively easy for me to maintain a bi-polar social circle consisting of broke-azz Bohemian types-including much of my family- (low cash flow out)and men-I-date-who-have-more-money-than-me (positive flow.) I cheerfully interact with more conventional types, such as women I teach with who talk about buying clothing on the internet over lunch, but I don't hang out with them in consumptive settings.

[jacob]

I think pre-ERE was also "simple" or "obvious", see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynefin_framework ... and as such there wasn't much to focus on. This was a good thing because it made it possible to be quite effective: "You had one job!" I think consumer/career-humanity mainly live in the obvious and complicated quadrants where answers are given and easy.

ERE lives in the complex quadrant where everything is connected to everything. Outcomes are emergent and comes from proper systems management. I suspect that fear that FI will decouple ambition from survival is that that connection (work or starve) is after all pretty simple. You stay rooted if you need 4 hours of work per day for "bread labor". Less rooted if resources just "arrive" due to decisions and tweaks made years ago. Pre-ERE one lives in a world where action is strongly coupled to effect in a local sense. Post-ERE this becomes decoupled and global.

It can be hard to communicate the difference. "What are you working on?" and "What do you do for a living?" are both sense-making questions that presume that the answer is obvious. Clearly, with ERE, if you're "working" on something, it means you screwed up your systems design somewhere, because work is only required to overcome friction from bad design. And the point is as "you" don't "do" anything for a living since meaning-making is not based on survival.

[Jean]

exactly.
I always consider work as a consequence of bad design.

[7Wannabe5]

Pre-ERE one lives in a world where action is strongly coupled to effect in a local sense. Post-ERE this becomes decoupled and global.

I think this is a problem for anybody with more of a blue/green/turquoise perspective, because it is the functional opposite of “think globally, act locally.” IOW, personal responsibility for the activities of production is effectively dispersed.

[ducknald_don]

I always consider work as a consequence of bad design.

Or rather spending.

There are some aspects of the work that I miss but any pleasure I got from that was completely overwhelmed by the politics and travel. I did think of some of my colleagues as friends but soon become disabused of that notion once I left.

I suppose sometimes my inability to splash the cash does cause some friction in our house. Right now our kitchen is falling apart and really needs some work but I won't just throw money at it. Finding a low cost solution will mean it will take time.

[unemployable]

Right now our kitchen is falling apart and really needs some work but I won't just throw money at it. Finding a low cost solution will mean it will take time.

Wait for a recession, or should I say wait for the one that's started to get worse. Probably only need a few more months.