BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

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thrifty++
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BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by thrifty++ »

I recently came across a few modalities of FIRE which I found somewhat entertaining and also useful as a means of breaking down progress.

I have heard the phrase fatFIRE for a long time and its clearly not my bag or very ERE oriented. And then I heard LeanFIRE which seems my approach. But I also recently heard of the categories BaistaFIRE and CoastFIRE and found them intriguing.

Is anyone pursuing a BaristaFIRE or CoastFIRE approach?

ertyu
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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by ertyu »

I think a number of people are, coastfire and baristafire are simply where you have taken care of the savings, let's say they're in VTSAX and tumbling up and down with the stock market, and you now only need to concern yourself with meeting immediate expenses. If your expenses are low, your job doesn't need to be that intensive, demanding, or regular. A number of people here have the option of living this way if they choose
Last edited by ertyu on Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by unemployable »

thrifty++ wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:18 pm
I recently came across a few modalities of FIRE
In other words, you started surfing Reddit.

I don't know of a single sub that's a great isomorphism to ERE. The FIRE subs all tend to focus on the money part, earning and spending and modeling asset performance, which is certainly important but stays around ERE Wheaton 3 or 4. If the object is to use Reddit as a source of enlightenment (ha!) you may want to check out some subs that aren't strictly about money or retirement such as r/simpleliving, r/iwantout, r/vandwellers or r/vagabond. I don't find r/frugal or r/personalfinance that interesting. Then there are the subs that deal with reducing specific expenses such as r/nocontract and r/eatcheapandhealthy, and I recommend them for that purpose. I learned a fair amount about car maintenance and repair from r/justrolledintotheshop.

Most of my finance-related posts on Reddit are to the joke subs.

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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by classical_Liberal »

thrifty++ wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:18 pm
Is anyone pursuing a BaristaFIRE or CoastFIRE approach?
Yes. I think here it has been named semi-ERE. Mostly because the financial part is a minority concern (vis-a-vis @unemployables comment).

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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by DutchGirl »

If CoastFIRE is defined as "having enough money so that by normal retirement age it has grown to a sufficient amount to retire on (taking into account social security as well)", then I still find this a rather precarious position to be in, if you were to stop at that and would start spending all of your income going forward. It would mean that if at any point between now and age 63 or so you'd lose your job for some reason, you'd be in rather big trouble financially.

Luckily I think most people see coastFIRE as a milestone on the way to even more financial freedom, and so they continue building up their assets and their lives beyond the coastFIRE point.

I might be doing my own version of BaristaFIRE. In the Netherlands, you don't have to have a job to have good health insurance (which is one of the reasons why it's called BaristaFIRE because Starbucks (used to?) also provide health care as a benefit for parttime employees), but to reach full FI status I would need to let my assets grow some more, and one way to do that would be to work for a few hours per week for a few more years to cover part of my expenses.

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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by IlliniDave »

One could probably make an argument those terms could fit the various levels en route to the realm of fatFire. At some point you'll hit some sort of coast phase where you're doing all the right things but need to continue on as you are, then you hit a point where you can get by with a cut in work income (Barrista), then just barely get by with no work income if careful (Lean), then you begin to build margin towards fatFire. I've heard of people hopping off the train at all those levels.

It's funny because by the standard metrics here, I probably fall into fatFire pretty easily, and maybe I felt that way when I pulled the plug last summer. But throw in some inflation, quasi-recession, and bear markets and I'm feeling more like I'm on the cusp of lean/barrista Fire. I'm even considering a parttime job when I get back in the fall, albeit one that allows me to wallow in a newfound leisure hobby.

I think they could all exist within an ERE framework, or pretty much outside of it, the latter being the route I took.

Laura Ingalls
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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by Laura Ingalls »

@IlliniDave
Jobs meet other needs to. DH loves being outside. His job at the park is time outside, exercise, free source of firewood. He says when we move away he will want to check in on the trees he has planted.

I definitely think there is some utility to backing out of paid employment as opposed to abruptly just not doing it anymore.

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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by jacob »

It's market differentiation reflecting that FIRE is increasingly (currently) mainstream. Now that the FIRE movement numbers in the low millions (1-2) people are looking both for a way to distinguish themselves and to sort themselves in like mindsets. The increased branding also simplifies the concepts and possibly help some people gain an identity; explaining themselves not only to themself but also to each other. However, in terms of innovation and methods, I don't think it adds much insight.

Sardonically speaking, it's just millennial rewording of known concepts. For example, baristaFIRE is Bob Clyatt's semi-retirement with part-time health care coverage. However, that trick is not likely to last forever nor is healthcare something that's impossible to get outside of working for Starbucks. It's more a neat trick that's been branded as cool by the popular crowd; note that Home Depot offers the same deal but somehow serving home improvement goods is not as cool as serving latte.

In that regard coastFIRE is practically jumping the shark. This basically just means having saved enough pension funds to retire comfortably (=normally responsible) at the traditional age after adding in a public pension like social security. There's no FI and there's no RE associated. All it means is having enough retirement funds, yet FIRE is where the cool kids of personal finance hangs out now---unlike 10 years ago when FIRE was only the nerds of personal finance---so now every personal finance strategy must somehow be a kind/brand of FIRE.

But that's all speaking like an engineer holding function over form. Holding form over function, the evolution of form with its branding and marketing does help spread the word even as it happens at WL3-4. More people are talking about it and that means that different conversations become possible. For example, previously FIRE was easily dismissed as an unrealistic radical pursuit of the few. Now, when politicians and economists keep hearing more people use the terms, they have to start taking it more seriously. Even the mass of people (WL1-2) will start thinking about previously ignored or disunderstood concepts, like "a budget", "spending less than you earn", "saving and investing",... because all the cool kids seem to be doing it.

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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by thrifty++ »

DutchGirl wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:56 am
I might be doing my own version of BaristaFIRE. In the Netherlands, you don't have to have a job to have good health insurance (which is one of the reasons why it's called BaristaFIRE because Starbucks (used to?) also provide health care as a benefit for parttime employees), but to reach full FI status I would need to let my assets grow some more, and one way to do that would be to work for a few hours per week for a few more years to cover part of my expenses.
Thats iinteresting Dutchgirl. So are you doing this now? Working just a few hours each week? How is that going? Sounds ideal.

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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by thrifty++ »

IlliniDave wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:08 am
One could probably make an argument those terms could fit the various levels en route to the realm of fatFire. ok.
Yes thats true. I think it probably looks like:

1. CoastFIRE
2. BaristaFIRE
3. LeanFIRE
4. FIRE
5. FatFIRE

Im not sure where the povertyFIRE sits in the mix of things but reading those posts it sounds like ERE style but quite a negative twist on the label.

I would say I have surpassed CoastFIRE and would be sitting at the BaristaFIRE stage, except that I dont have a Barista type job. I would be more likely to do a highly paid professional job or consulting work part time though. Not for health insurance though.

Im on the cusp of deciding whether to sway more in the direction of "BaristaFIRE" or part-timeFIRE until I hit leanFIRE or whether to keep slogging to LeanFIRE

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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by WFJ »

thrifty++ wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:18 pm


Is anyone pursuing a BaristaFIRE or CoastFIRE approach?
Looking back, probably followed some kind of mix of both of these. Believe the term is "serial-mini retiree" that combines both Barista and Coast. I've been retired well over 10 years out of 25 years of working, but typically had "hobby-jobs" during the downtime. Part of the strategy may have been created due to growing up in a right to work state (can't count how many times I or friends were fired without notice or cause) and major boom-bust area where again, can't count how many people I know went from 7+figure to negative AUM in the span of a few months. These experiences growing up did more to motivate some kind of Coast-Barista FIRE than any other source.

Also have some kind of middle-class "Poor Dad" mentality to be productive rather than sit idol and be mesmerized by my crypto/NFT "balances". I've also learned that the most powerful card to play in any salary/benefits/work condition situation is to say "Can I list you as a reference?" after being asked to come in on Saturday or do some other work not clearly stated in a contract.

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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by Ego »

jacob wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:01 am
---so now every personal finance strategy must somehow be a kind/brand of FIRE.
I've been toying with the idea of releasing my own personal FIRE philosophy. I call it DumpsterFIRE®.

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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by Scott 2 »

I have a close friend doing what's now termed Barista FIRE. Only he simply never clicked with full time work. His 20's and 30's were awesome, taking full advantage of youth. Fantastic experiences, I will never have. Friends around the world. Adventure. Fame. Women. Even some wealth.

Moving into our 40's, as I've reached FIRE, the other trade offs are evident. In short - my reward is much greater security. While tomorrow is never certain, mine is easier than his. In theory, I have far more options.

Objectively though - his life remains broader. The path to FIRE constrained my development in other ways. I think that trade off holds true for everyone. So it's not a simple linear path, with milestones along the way. The person choosing "lesser" FIRE opts for other growth, that's hard to quantify.


One's nature also enters into things. I never could have followed my friends path, nor he mine.

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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by lightfruit55 »

Self-identifying as one of the many reddit-FI labels feels kind of cringey to me, perhaps maybe because these labels have become so mainstream and/or that I no longer find value in seeking FIRE as much as designing and building a fulfilling life, of which financial security/independence is only a constituent.

Great observation @Scott 2. I also feel that the path to FIRE over the past few years has constrained my personal development and limited my life experiences and future vision. This is so jarring whenever I contrast my life with my partner's. My partner does not pursue financial freedom/independence/security in a linear salary-man manner. Unlike me, he does not pursue financial freedom/independence/security as a priority. Instead, he pursues meaning, mastery, interests, and income is just no more than some money he has to make to secure roof, put food on the table and to save for rainy days. His life journey entails such a broad range of connections, life experiences and personal growth that a normal salary man like myself does not have... and the irony is that I feel less free, independent and secure for someone actively pursuing the same.

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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by ertyu »

Scott 2 wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 4:46 pm
The path to FIRE constrained my development in other ways. I think that trade off holds true for everyone.
Not if you're, say, autistic, and those were never needs that could lead to fulfillment. This is not about autism per se just that some neurodivergent people do better on a simple routine (including food-wise) and need a limited amount of human interaction. YMMV ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
lightfruit55 wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:21 pm
reddit-FI
AHAHAHA

@lightfruit, there's a trap (which i've fallen into as well) where the pursuit of FIRE results in manufactured scarcity. the "how can i minimize my spending" rather than "how can i best* meet my needs" trap.

* where best is defined in terms of efficiency/congruence w other goals and present/future trade-offs
Last edited by ertyu on Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

IlliniDave
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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by IlliniDave »

thrifty++ wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:30 pm
...

I would say I have surpassed CoastFIRE and would be sitting at the BaristaFIRE stage, except that I dont have a Barista type job. I would be more likely to do a highly paid professional job or consulting work part time though. Not for health insurance though.

Im on the cusp of deciding whether to sway more in the direction of "BaristaFIRE" or part-timeFIRE until I hit leanFIRE or whether to keep slogging to LeanFIRE
In what I was saying above, I was really gauging things based on degree of FI, so one could be at BaristaFIRE level of FI without a barista-style job. So I was reverting to my ingrained habit of focusing primarily on the wealth-building side of the process (my bad) and sort of separating that side from how the RE might be actuated. In my case, at least at the beginning I probably had a FatFIRE-lite stash (globally speaking, fully FatFIRE in ere context) with a plan to basically live a LeanFire lifestyle, which could wind up being a quasi-BaristaFire implementation in the fall. I say quasi- because although no details have been discussed, I suspect the part-time gig in question does not come with benefits like healthcare.

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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by IlliniDave »

Laura Ingalls wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:30 am
@IlliniDave
Jobs meet other needs to. DH loves being outside. His job at the park is time outside, exercise, free source of firewood. He says when we move away he will want to check in on the trees he has planted.

I definitely think there is some utility to backing out of paid employment as opposed to abruptly just not doing it anymore.
I pretty much agree with this. If I wind up taking the job I mentioned it will be something like 70% because I think it will be fun/interesting/educational. But taking it would have some modest financial implications in that it could cover my "walking around money" reserving the financial structure I set up a priori to cover the more important needs.

I think it depends a little on the person/situation regarding whether easing out of the workforce is preferable to an abrupt transition. For me, for reasons I probably couldn't explain well, it was important to cut the cord completely. Because I was peppered with the "What are you going to do with yourself if you stop working?" question during the run up I was able to put a plan in place for some reasonably active leisure pursuits. Turns out one of those is what might lead me into part-time employment, but there's nothing wrong with baking it into the plan from the start. A lot of people hybridize by converting a hobby into a small business venture when they retire.

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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by Scott 2 »

@ertyu - I think the development constraints of a traditional FIRE path hold, even for someone who is neurodivergent. My growth in the past 18 months of retirement has been greater than the 10 years prior. But, opportunities open to someone in their 20's, are closed to me. I missed those chances.

Chasing FIRE, I found it very easy to fixate on what was an effective lens. While my career developed, it was essentially the same 1 year of experience, repeated 10 times. My financial incentive was to refine and polish, never questioning context. I put all my energy into learning about computers and insurance.

Stepping off the path for early retirement, I shattered the lens. Resource constraints became instrumental and forced a transition. LIke @IlliniDave above, I automatically defaulted back to my career context. But my old definition of security no longer worked. I couldn't support it.

Jacob wrote about these concepts in the ERE book. Plato's cave. Generalist vs. specialist. Going through the experience now, I appreciate them more. I was too entrenched to see. I had no idea my barista FIRE friend was playing at a high level. I was waiting for his full time career.


On the other side, I also see the traditional path not taken. My work peers are becoming directors. Soon they will be VPs. Running companies. Sitting on boards. Shaping lives for hundreds of people. Some of them will have estates worth 10's of millions. A charitable legacy. Their next 20-40 years look much different than mine.


The money is only one aspect, and maybe the least important. I think that gets misconstrued. Jacob's ERE wheaton levels do a good job of capturing why.

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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by jacob »

I think options vs security is a false dichotomy. It's more that optionality is built on a foundation of security. It's possible to generate options on a very small base of security, e.g. yoloing around the world volunteering on a foundation of youth and health, but while this results in a collection of experiences, it does not put food on the table insofar one needs additional optionality that requires more than passing a fog-the-mirror test.

Sacrifice doesn't mean giving something up. It means exchanging something for something better, like I sacrifice the rook for a queen or maybe more accurately a pawn for a better position. However, in the process of accounting, it's not always easy to see the later benefits as one makes the moves to prepare for them. They don't come immediately. They also do not come automatically. What FI security allows is the possibility of building optionality that is contingent on skill. Skill takes time, but people busy working to put food on the table do not have the time to build that, so they stay with their mono-skill specialization or they move around in low-skilled entry labor (barista, cleaning, assembly, ...). Indeed, the later seems to be a not uncommon destination for those who spent their 20s and 30s focusing on great experiences instead of a resume/career (or FI). Now older, they're kinda stuck in the kind of part-time work that funded these activities; it's a lot harder to break out of that pattern like going back to school and starting a career when one is 30-40something. Likewise, it's harder to save significant amounts of money from entry-level work.

Of course everybody is defending their book, including me. However, whereas some might have the pictures and memories of back when they went backpacking in SEA or joined the traveling circus, I have a loaded investment account and I don't have to worry about money or employment. Which is subjectively or objectively better?

I think the only way to compare is by answering a question that I'm often asked in interviews: Do you have any regrets? (In retrospect do you wish you would have made a different choice.) In my case, no.

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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by thrifty++ »

I dont have any regrets myself about having taken a path of pursuing FI.

My regrets are more the opposite - not pursuing FI at an earlier stage. I would have much more financial space had I done so earlier as well as then and would also have had more interesting experiences. Things have only been better for me since beginning the pursuit of FI. I have had more options and better choices and have executed some of those options I would otherwise not have been able to.

I guess though in executing some of the choices pursuing FI has provided me have also been moments of diverting me away from the ultimate FI goal. Only slightly though, and it was the FU money allowing me to do so. I guess if you were only pursuing FI at all costs then maybe it would be not so great. Eg doing a high stress high paid job, long hours, never travelling, not doing any hobbies because they cost money, trimming all costs to the bone without any time or money to pleasurable things. etc.

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