Good thinking habits

Health, Fitness, Food, Insurance, Longevity, Diets,...
thrifty++
Posts: 1171
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 3:46 pm

Good thinking habits

Post by thrifty++ »

..
Last edited by thrifty++ on Mon May 23, 2022 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15907
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: Good thinking habits

Post by jacob »

The majority of humans never bother to understand how other humans think/feel/experience things differently. They just assume that whatever goes on in their own personal mind is replicated---admittedly with some variation of personal tastes or preferences---in the minds of everybody else.

A significant number of humans don't even bother to understand their own mind. They just react and then rationalize their reaction later. It's possible to go through life like this, albeit haltingly. They don't reflect on the self when accused of bad behavior; instead they do the "I'm rubber you're glue"-routine and project their shadow unto others. Unseen to them, excruciatingly obvious to others.

What are good thinking habits?

I think it depends a lot on what kind of thinking that's compatible with your neurochemistry. Great thinking methods exist, but they're useless if you don't feel like practicing them. Other great methods also exist which you might feel more inclined to practice. So asking what is good or best is kinda like asking what the best diet is or what the best way to invest is. You're going to get a bunch of "what worked for me" answers.

If you really wanna know, you need to engage in a journey of CCCCCC. Best not stick to copying and comparing people on the interwebs thinking that there's a quick and easy answer to that question.

chenda
Posts: 3289
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:17 pm
Location: Nether Wallop

Re: Good thinking habits

Post by chenda »

I'm skeptical someone can consciously change their way of thinking.

daylen
Posts: 2528
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: Good thinking habits

Post by daylen »

@chenda I accept your challenge.

daylen
Posts: 2528
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: Good thinking habits

Post by daylen »

Nevermind your right, I can't change my mind. I forfeit.

Toska2
Posts: 420
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:51 pm

Re: Good thinking habits

Post by Toska2 »

This journey strikes me as dependent on kegan levels. How you precieve yourself and you place in community (loosely defined). I would theorize that thinking, doing and immersion into the human element would provide adequate results. (Aka why so many parents find raising kids rewarding)

The Serenity Prayer and the book The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt might be of some help.

daylen
Posts: 2528
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: Good thinking habits

Post by daylen »

Perhaps T (thinking) tends to pivot upon sharp dichotomous contractions in such a way that Ti pulls bits in and Te pushes bits out (with respect to arm-centric metaphor). T generally being tree-like with multiple potential seeds. In contrast, F (feeling) is more like a superposition of vibrations or frequencies that blur in spacetime to a greater degree due to a lack of internal edges.

A trail of T bits in the past can give rise to potential bits in the future (Ti -> Te). Agency over thought then being a process of bit flow that mirrors inner feels while being enclosed by a sensorium that is presumed to print the universe as well as imprint the self (sensation and intuition).

Good thinking habits then potentially building off of the arrangement of bits in a tree-like structure extending out in the limit to basins of attraction in which the inductive and deductive consequences of a tree reveal themselves in a mirrored application or experimentation on apparent reality. Hence, an expansion that matches several sharp contractions will tend to suggest future contractions and expansions towards the infinitely null and infinitely large.

mathiverse
Posts: 788
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:40 pm

Re: Good thinking habits

Post by mathiverse »

What are some ways of thinking that have enough material to learn them? I can think of rationality (ala LessWrong, et al) and stoicism as ways of thinking that could be useful and have training material. I can also think of techniques and tactics for changing thinking like CBT, DBT, and meditation. Would different philosophical theories count as a way of thinking? Does changing from optimizing at WL5 to systems thinking at WL6+ count as changing your way of thinking?

daylen
Posts: 2528
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: Good thinking habits

Post by daylen »

mathiverse wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 10:22 am
Would different philosophical theories count as a way of thinking? Does changing from optimizing at WL5 to systems thinking at WL6+ count as changing your way of thinking?
I would say yes. Learning how to read and write mathematical proofs being a bare-bones approach with substantial background content (albeit dense and benefiting greatly from good teachers). Math being built up from set or type theoretic axioms that can then be subtly interpreted in different ways corresponding to different schools of philosophical thought. The analytical tradition of philosophy tending to treat logical transformations as real and important when evaluating truth claims through methods of proof. Continental philosophy tending more towards a skeptical stance on proof and preferring multiple vantage points linking to multiple metaphorical anchors.

Within mathematics, analysis is a branch that deals with limits (often infinite) and algebra is a branch that deals in abstractions (house of cards). Each favoring different yet compatible modes of thinking that can conflict upon closer inspection of specific problems with edge cases involving zero and/or infinity (or generally uncountable procedures). Constellating into proofs operating on proofs to demonstrate the potential incompleteness(*) of systems stemming from finite ontologies (i.e. assumptions that treat a countable number of things as existent). Or at least this is a current interpretation that came to mind.

(*) or otherwise inconsistency.

Whether or not learning such ways of thinking is "conscious" or not is up for debate. Though, I tend to err on the side of presuming agency over tangible things until proven otherwise. <- this sorta being a hidden assumption behind the ERE philosophy.

chenda
Posts: 3289
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:17 pm
Location: Nether Wallop

Re: Good thinking habits

Post by chenda »

mathiverse wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 10:22 am
I can also think of techniques and tactics for changing thinking like CBT, DBT, and meditation.
My experience with all three has led me to the conclusion they are all bunkham. Maybe that's just me but my god, both my CBT and DBT therapist were utterly useless.

I think the most common way people change their thinking is through some bad unpleasant trauma (PTSD) or less commonly, through some intense but positive experiences.

Scott 2
Posts: 2824
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:34 pm

Re: Good thinking habits

Post by Scott 2 »

Along those lines, I recently ran across a program that tries to induce Post-Traumatic Growth:

https://thespecialforcesexperience.com/about-us/

So someone pays a bunch of money, to spend a week of their life suffering, in hopes of coming out stronger on the other end. They already weeded me out, but I can believe some thrive from it.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Good thinking habits

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Scott 2:

I will charge you $0 to come squat and perform grueling manual labor at my abandoned derelict house/permaculture project in semi-sketchy urban neighborhood. Some depth growth experiences made available will be:

1) Self-comforting ritual practice after sudden wake-up on dirty futon on asphalt floor of poorly ventilated shed/garage accompanied by thought "What is that noise?"
2) Moment of deep gratitude when I finally show up with some clean drinking water after you've been hauling compost for 6 hours in the sun.
3) Increased ability to fully inhabit mantra of "I have nothing. I know nothing" after being approached by pupil-dilated vagrants snuffling around for scrap metals.

User avatar
jennypenny
Posts: 6851
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm

Re: Good thinking habits

Post by jennypenny »

When I was young, Outward Bound was popular as a way to experience 'hardship' in an educational and parentally-acceptable manner. Not sure if its still around.

chenda
Posts: 3289
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:17 pm
Location: Nether Wallop

Re: Good thinking habits

Post by chenda »

Yes indeed. 'Mood follows action' as a wise forumrite once said.

I think there can be too much thinking sometimes, all this stuff about Ni and T quadrants and stuff strikes me as a form of intellectual masterbation. Kinda enjoyable but it's not the real experience as it were.

Focusing on something outside of yourself which you care about and curbing too much introspection is the secret to furfillment imo.

Edit. In a similar vein they say boxing clubs do more to cut crime than police stations in inner city areas. That may be an exaggeration but I'm sure there's some truth to it.

daylen
Posts: 2528
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: Good thinking habits

Post by daylen »

I kinda see it like high-dimensional tether ball. So long as the ball is still attached, the ground is nearby. Abstractions tend to bundle near the surface of "material stuff" with use, so that when engaged with can seem "real" when spirits and souls are involved (most commonly when relating to humans or other sentient beings like institutions). The world is alive and volving all around us, feeling more apart of the dance of volution can be aided through logical extensions. Analysis paralysis and recursive traps acting as land mines in the vast field(s) of "understanding". Going down the rabbit holes may seem painful though that is just the low-state climax of an otherwise full-depth journey up the mountain.

Scott 2
Posts: 2824
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:34 pm

Re: Good thinking habits

Post by Scott 2 »

Credit to the post traumatic growth guys, they have more thought behind the plan than suffering. Here's a podcast where one of the instructors talks about it:

https://miketnelson.com/the-special-for ... -training/

A documentary is scheduled for launch this Summer. I'll watch. It looks interesting.

Using special forces as their hook - I find that off putting. I get that it's effective marketing, but the equating of hyper-masculinity with personal growth is tacky. They are selecting for a very specific audience.


Something I do think they get right - the people leading you to become better, have made the walk. There's no shortage talkers who haven't done anything, saying what the audience wants to hear. Much better to look at what someone has done.

That's one of the things I like about this forum. Typically the person telling you how to do the thing, has already done the thing, often at a very high level.

theanimal
Posts: 2628
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:05 pm
Location: AK
Contact:

Re: Good thinking habits

Post by theanimal »

Outward Bound is still around. My NOLS experience was similar. Wilderness or wilderness like environments remove any filter, can be unrelenting teachers and there are real consequences. If you spend enough time outside, you will find plenty of adversity and quickly find out how you react to it. Reading about the importance of grit, perseverance and positive mental attitude is not the same thing as experiencing it and being forced to learn it first hand, like after you have already been living on a glacier for 2 weeks and end up having to put in a 20 hr day to travel 1/2 mi down a steep slope over multiple crevasses to beat a snow storm. I seem to remember Jacob talking about similar style experiences during his sailboat racing days.

Only in America will people pay nearly $7k (~1 Jacob!)for a week's worth of heavy physical exertion outside. Part of that is because people are decoupled from the physical world. Heat comes on via a switch and water via the flick of a handle. It makes me think that these people could likely experience the same things by following more of a literal chop wood, carry water approach. Ride your bike, provide for your own food, heat and water. Fix things when they break. There's plenty of adversity and perseverance to be found in trying to do things when you know nearly nothing about a topic and are learning on the fly. Or rather are far too stubborn and cheap to go the consumer route. Speaking from plenty of experience . ;)

zbigi
Posts: 978
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:04 pm

Re: Good thinking habits

Post by zbigi »

Scott 2 wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 9:05 pm

Using special forces as their hook - I find that off putting. I get that it's effective marketing, but the equating of hyper-masculinity with personal growth is tacky. They are selecting for a very specific audience.
This is the trend in (American) internet right now. The special forces guys and people like Goggins are everywhere. It's looks very one-dimensional to me, it's basically achievement porn. I suspect it mostly appeals to young males, who are competitive by nature, but I don't think that elevation of such outlook serves society as a whole.

white belt
Posts: 1452
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 12:15 am

Re: Good thinking habits

Post by white belt »

Scott 2 wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 12:45 pm
Along those lines, I recently ran across a program that tries to induce Post-Traumatic Growth:

https://thespecialforcesexperience.com/about-us/

So someone pays a bunch of money, to spend a week of their life suffering, in hopes of coming out stronger on the other end. They already weeded me out, but I can believe some thrive from it.
I think this trend largely started in the late 2000s/early 2010s with the popularity of Crossfit. All of a sudden there was a mainstream fitness program whose participants prided themselves on difficult, uncomfortable workouts. It was almost a badge of honor if you puke or feel like you are going to die. As far as I can tell, this was quite a departure from typical mainstream fitness trends which tended to emphasize results with minimal effort and focused on having fun.

I hadn't heard of the Special Forces Experience before, but it seems pretty similar to GORUCK which has had events for the past decade with similar structure and objectives. Basically these events appeal to people who work unchallenging desk jobs and feel completely disconnected to the physical world (very much a first world problem).

zbigi wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 4:23 am
This is the trend in (American) internet right now. The special forces guys and people like Goggins are everywhere. It's looks very one-dimensional to me, it's basically achievement porn. I suspect it mostly appeals to young males, who are competitive by nature, but I don't think that elevation of such outlook serves society as a whole.
There is definitely an element of achievement porn in that consuming content may give viewers a sense they are actually working towards some kind of goal without actually having to do the uncomfortable step of taking action.

However, I have a different perspective on the whole hyper-masculinity debate. Throughout human history, daily life afforded men many outlets to express their dominant/competitive/violent side (a well-documented effect of testosterone on the human brain). There was hunting, warfare, and violent contact sport, to name just a few activities. For many men in the developed world, participating in those things is no longer a part of life. I think that helps to explain some of the fascination with things like military Special Ops and Mixed Martial Arts. There is something fundamentally human about violence that exists at the cerebral level; one cannot logic it away. A straightforward example would be that if you ban contact/competitive sports in elementary school at recess, you are guaranteed to increase the occurrence of fights in the classroom, hallways, and outside of school. There needs to be an outlet for such aggression or else it will manifest in unpredictable ways, yet the modern world tries to claim that we have somehow "evolved" past such things.

Additionally, every society had well understood rites of passages for boys to enter adulthood (many of which were extremely physically/psychologically difficult). Those are rare in the modern world.

Therefore, the trend is not surprising because it is checks the block of rite of passage and physically/mentally difficult.

chenda
Posts: 3289
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:17 pm
Location: Nether Wallop

Re: Good thinking habits

Post by chenda »

white belt wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 2:50 pm
There needs to be an outlet for such aggression or else it will manifest in unpredictable ways, yet the modern world tries to claim that we have somehow "evolved" past such things.
Yes indeed, what I was getting at with boxing clubs above. Especially important when you consider that the vast majority of crime is committed by men (especially violent and even more so sexual crime) Not making excuses for it of cause but a healthy outlet for male's evolutionary propensity to violence is essential for a harmonious society I believe.

I suspect also the decline in heavy industry in many western countries and the economic shift towards hitech and service industries has put many working class men at a huge economic disadvantage and exacerbated the problem.

Post Reply