Stack theory 101

The "other" ERE. Societal aspects of the ERE philosophy. Emergent change-making, scale-effects,...
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Stack theory 101

Post by jacob »

A quick guide to figure out your stack given your type.

N/S are so-called perceiving functions. This relates to WHAT kind of information you take in. N is formal or abstract and focused on context and how things connect (think Asian). S is concrete and focused on the objects themselves.

T/F are the judging functions. They determine HOW you think about the information from your perceiving functions. T means thinking and usually involves some kind of logic or "if A then B"-chains of reasoning. F means (gut-)feeling where the perceptions are processed en masse with the result of the perception either feeling "agreeable" or "disagreeable" rather than true/false.

All humans have 8 functions in their brain space. In no particular order, they're Se, Si, Ne, Ni, Te, Ti, Fe, and Fi. Other species might have a more limited number on account of having more limited brain functionality.

Relative preference determines personality.
Absolute development determines maturity.

The other two variables (E/I)x(J/P) are the key to unlocking how these are prioritized in terms of personality. There are four combinations: E**J, I**J, E**P, and I**P. Note that this says nothing about maturity. A more mature person will be able to express more than one "personality-type". However, expressing more types does not imply maturity---it may simply be that the person has no preference or equally low development in many functions.

E**J types are the simplest to understand. They reveal their primary function outright because it is extroverted and explicitly available because they use it to express judgments. They'll run their thinking or feeling right through their talking. Thus ESTJ and ENTJs will lead with Te. ESFJ and ENFJs will lead with Fe. What you see is what you get. E**Js are immediately transparent. You'll recognize them by how they'll immediately express an opinion on everything. Their supporting function will always be the introverted perception of the relevant letter in their typing. Thus ENTJ will lead with Te (because JE) and this is backed with Ni (because N and opposite of E), thus ENTJ = TeNi. Similarly, ESFJ is FeSi, and so on.

I**J types withhold their judging functions behind a layer of perception. The "man behind the curtain"-types. They look things over before they "extrovert" their judgement based on what they've seen. Introversion means that what you see is NOT what you get. IOW, I**J types perceive first and then communicate how they judge their own perception. Thus INTJs will still appear to the world like Te but only after filtering through Ni ("According to my theory, ... ). ISTJs will also appear like Te but only after applying Si ("According to the rules or my experience, ...) INFJs appear like Fe but only after Ni. ISFJs also appear like Fe but only after Si.

E**P are the "look butterfly, shiny"-types. Always trying to take in new perceptions. Their primary functions follow accordingly: ESFP and ESTP is Se, that is, whatever concrete thing is in front of them right now. ENFP and ENTP is Ne, that is, "whatabout this one idea or that other idea". The supporting function will (as always) be the introverted judging function. Thus ENFP leads with Ne and is supported by Fi. ESTP leads with Se and is supported with Ti. And so on.

I**P types are doubly complicated. They perceive but also withhold the conclusions of their perceptions most of the time. They're two layers deep. Their judging functions are introverted (their primary is Ti or Fi). This in turn means that their perception is extroverted (Ne or Se) and so they'll be asking tons of questions to refine their respective Ti and Fi... when they finally unspool their Ti or Fi, it'll be expressed with a tool in the form of a refined theory(N) or skill(S). Anyhoo ... say, an ISTP would then lead with Ti and be supported by asking Se type questions. This would be someone learning to use a tool like a rifle or a guitar, endlessly seeking Se input to refine their own understanding.

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Re: Stack theory 101

Post by jacob »

The last two functions (3rd and 4th) automagically follows from the first two stack functions as established above.
Think of it this way. If you have a strongly typed temperament---lets do INTJ---the first (primary) leads, here Ni. Te follows. Te being less dominant (of the type) leaves room for the other judging function as number 3. This will be Fi. The opposite judging function has to point the opposite direction. Number 4 is the neglected one. Here Ni has led the way in terms of perception, so Se becomes the 3-year old in the car-model.

This pattern is way more clear/obvious in strongly typed (preferred) temperaments.

Lets just do another one. A strongly typed ESFP. In that case, perception is extraverted so Se leads. This leaves an introverted judging function as number two, thus here Fi. The third function thus has to be Te (extroverted opposite of Fi).. and so the fourth becomes Ni. In total ESFP=SeFiTeNi.

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Re: Stack theory 101

Post by jacob »

Methinks you can understand yourself and others in terms of e.g. two (simple), four (MBTI), or all eight (deep shadow) functions.

Knowing the first two will tell you what drives someone's worldview---how they experience the world and proceed to "talk" about it.

Knowing the first four will tell you someone's [MBTI] personality type.

Knowing all eight will reveal the shadow as well.

To reveal all 8 based on knowing the first 4 or 2, retain the order and flip the e/i on all the functions. Your own shadow is not the well-developed inverse of your own developed type e.g. INTJ-ESFP or ESTJ-INFP---rather its your most dysfunctional self, that is, the functions you've neglected to develop.

The first 4 functions can be neatly arranged via the CAR-model, that is, the driver, the codriver, the 10 year old and the 3 year old for the four models respectively---your own functions may be more or less evolved respectively. This explains the maturity of the inputs w/o getting into how the functions interact.

The bottom 4 functions get more complicated. They've been repressed or neglected by you since forever. They likely have a lot to say ... but what they have to say is likely retarded and stupid. Even so, it's best to acknowledge these sentiments or voices.

guitarplayer
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Re: Stack theory 101

Post by guitarplayer »

Thanks @jacob, I find this succinct intro helpful. Not necessarily wrt myself, looks like I score all over the place MBTI-wise, but in terms of trying to make sense out of other people. In the past I tried to pull together info from the forum about MBTI but it was too scattered/never had time to read through it all.

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Re: Stack theory 101

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

Thank you for this write-up. This is very helpful. I am struck that it might be useful to begin to identify function use in others in order to better understand one's own shadow functions and the areas in which they may be causing self-sabotage. Learning to identify which function is driving which behavior seems a useful tool for introspection.

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Re: Stack theory 101

Post by jacob »

The (literal) car-model is a driving model (I slay myself) for understanding strongly typed temperaments. Imagine the 4 functions as a family in a sedan.

Primary - Driver
Auxiliary - Codriver
Tertiary - 10 year old
Inferior - 3 year old

This framework relates to both who is in charge of steering, who is helping the steering, and the overall maturity (development) of the passengers on board as they may also on occasion determine where the parents will go. Note how the parents are [usually] equally mature. They exist as a collaboration of an introvert and extrovert function respectively. The extrovert always does the talking.

A given function, e.g. Ni, will serve both different roles but also have different capabilities whether it sits in the primary position (INTJ=NiTeFiSe) or the inferior position (ESTP=SeTiFeNi). Vice versa for Se.

In the INTJ, Ni seeks to build a system of the world starting from a very young age. They can literally intuit the principle behind a logical system focusing on what's important and what's not important and quickly reduce it to the fundamentals. For NiTe it's a universe of formal thinking where abstract principles matter and facts are just there for verification. (For INFJ=NiFe... they live in a world of ethical principles, human perspectives, and community relations.) Se is the function that engages with the external physical world, but it has the energy and insight of a 3 year old. It's easily tired out and you can only get its attention with strong sensations like going hard or extreme sports or novel experiences (only works once), ... take it to a restaurant or a party with lots of people or sensations and it'll quickly get bored or tired.

In the ESTP, Se is the primary. It's focused exclusively with what's presently in front of the person right now. Does it look good? Is it fun? Funny? Is it loud? Is it new? Magnificent? Have you tried? Look at those lines! ... It's all about the maximally sensed experience in the present. The world of restaurants, fun fairs, roller coasters, jokes, partying, and maybe morning radio... is built for Se. The Ni is the 3-year old who thinks the best understanding comes from following your gut. Contingent statements (if X then Y) are considered irrelevant because the future is considered fundamentally unpredictable and something "nobody can know". Explanations are communicated as short lists of bullet points.

In less strongly typed or more balanced (typically older) individuals, the 10-year old and/or the 3-year old will have aged significantly more. For example, an INTJ might have worked in sales and been forced to learn how to talk to people, mingling in trade fairs, cold calling, and selling. They might even be so good at [sales] that they convince themself that they're extroverted or at least people-friendly. In that case, the inferior function will have substantially more depth, like maybe a 20 year old.

In that sense, we can ascribe different age levels to the various functions to get an idea of their respective depth. Since the majority of adults slow down their development around age 17-25 and in most cases come to a complete stop---"I'm the same on the inside as when I was 20"---a person that had all 4 functions developed to that level instead of just the primary two (front seats) would be hard to type and might even have a hard time typing themselves. (I think even Kegan numbers have an easier time typing themselves than odd Kegan numbers.)

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Re: Stack theory 101

Post by guitarplayer »

So a shadow for, say, ESFP=SeFiTeNi would be ISFJ=SiFeTiNe?

I also wonder about a parallel between being strongly and weakly typed and a specialist and generalist re life skills, respectively, from the point of view of strengths and weaknesses of these different arrangements.

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Re: Stack theory 101

Post by daylen »

@guitarplayer

Yes on first question. Second question is rather more complicated as I expect we would need to build descriptions of cognitive depth for each function and classify various specializations. It may not be as straightforward as it sounds. For instance, it is conceivable to have weakly typed specialists and strongly typed generalists (may depend on how generalized we are talking here). Also I suspect "light" and "dark" depth could come into play along with a web of goals or activities. Interlinking all this will take some time.

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Re: Stack theory 101

Post by guitarplayer »

Thanks @daylen.

I see where you are coming from re the second question.

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Re: Stack theory 101

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

So, as an eNTP, my shadow would be an evil INTJ, like Littlefinger from “Game of Thrones?” And,it would follow that the 5 I should wanting to be as a 7, would be INTP rather than INTJ? IOW, simply striving to strengthen Ti relative to Ne?

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Re: Stack theory 101

Post by daylen »

Both Ti and Te correlate heavily with 5. Bridging the two seems to be reliably done through programming or computer operation in general. Though, designing and implementing your own curriculum on "insert topic here" would also suffice.

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Re: Stack theory 101

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@daylen:

Well, I am currently getting a A+ in Systems Analysis (grade inflation probable), so Ti covered. My Fe is reasonably mature due to lots of Mom years. So, I guess I am down to Si? I’m obviously extremely handicapped in Se because rarely alert to my surroundings, but I don’t think I am particularly memory impaired.

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Re: Stack theory 101

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

For the shadow functions, does stack theory indicate one function is going to be more of a shadow than the others? Ie, is Ne going to be your biggest shadow function as an INTJ? Or can it vary entirely which function is your weakest point?

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Re: Stack theory 101

Post by daylen »

@7w5 that post showed quite a bit of Si, ha. Perhaps try to treat functions more as a micro level in which activities or tasks at the micro-messo border use all functions to some degree (especially if a flow-state is reached which corresponds to actuation in my model). The Ni perception of functions trending more towards superimposed waves spread across spacetime that can cohere or decohere.

@AE that gets into a more advanced topic that may be fleshed out in Stack Theory 102, though generally, the 7th function is considered the blind spot or point of least resistance for a given type. As it is two pivots away from the main two functions (e.g. Ti, Ne -> Si, Fe, Te, Ni -> Se, Fi) and it does not share a commonality with the dominate function (e.g. both Ti and Fi for INTP are deliberative).

Fe and Te being interfacing, Se and Ne being active, and Si and Ni being passive.
Last edited by daylen on Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: Stack theory 101

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

Thanks daylen, that makes sense. I'm wondering if strengthening one's weaker functions/shadow might have therapeutic benefits in bringing awareness to the unconscious. That is, if you have very weak Se, working on physical training or sports might be therapeutic. Or for weak Fe, you might develop higher emotional intelligence and actively try to do kind things for others. Or weak Fi, perhaps a greater investment in aesthetics and self-expression. I notice that a lot of formal therapeutic techniques work either through Fe, Fi, or Se, and I wonder if that's the mechanism.

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Re: Stack theory 101

Post by daylen »

I think perhaps third and forth slot functions provide a reliable avenue for translational growth, and the subconscious, back-stack towards transformational growth (especially if the 7th or polar function can be targeted). I prefer to think of the back-stack as subconscious and subtle relative to the grossly conscious front-stack. Unconsciousness itself or deep sleep unites all conscious experience to the supreme or ultimate identity/instrument(*). The working or practical identity [in here] being specified relative to tangible instruments [out there], though any formal or mechanical system may be excavated away until a bare-bones axiomatic set is left. From here, the axioms can be inverted to deduce a shadowed system which will suggest alternative branching hypothesizes which can never quite falsify or verify the original system. The resulting shadow-log between the trees waving through the air can hint upon an underlying unity in the roots tangling through the infinite ground from which reality arises.

(*) Which seems to be the only implementation. All others may be considered caricatures.

I could be crazy though.

In other words, conscious growth differs from subconscious growth which will periodically t-bone your constructed identify-instrument combinations speeding down the highway. The real strength of a typing system is not in complacency with respect to a given type but with respect to building up a shadow-log of what you tend not to see, then embracing situations where the logs can be organized symmetrically to what you believe is readily apparent.
Last edited by daylen on Thu Apr 21, 2022 9:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Stack theory 101

Post by daylen »

Perhaps there is a way to convert webs of goals into webs of activities and from here the activities can be covered with various markov blankets(*) corresponding to specialties. Then a generalization scheme can be brought into focus that can test whether a given blanketed web of activities would tend to develop depth across all the functions over enough spacetime.

Cognitive depth perhaps being a widening of the span of states an agent can reach with a given function. Low depth only being able to access either a low, mid, or high state; mid depth being able to access low/mid or mid/high states; and high depth having access to low, mid, and high states.

A zeroth-order generalization covering only the two primary functions of a type; a first-order generalization covering all except the 7th and 8th slot functions, and a second-order generalization covering all functions. This would align with the concept of function pivots(+) where each function can be pivoted to from any other function by either sharing S, N, T, or F or by sharing an axis (e.g. Se can reach Si or Ni). The axes being Ne-Si, Ti-Fe, Te-Fi, and Ni-Se.

(*) That is, a probabilistic model of what is in and what is out.

(+) Which would be more of an Si functional paradigm relative to an Ni functional paradigm that views the functions as superimposed waves in time, space, or spacetime that cohere/decohere. Perhaps with the following matches:

time
Si and Ti: trailing past
Se and Te: present potential (nondual discovery)
Fi and Ni: likely futures
Fe and Ne: present possibilities (dual construction)

space
Si and Ti: external tracking
Se and Te: external control
Fi and Ni: internal matching
Fe and Ne: internal creation

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Re: Stack theory 101

Post by daylen »

Kinda like this where 2-5 are zeroth-order coverings or specialties for the dominate two functions (with 1 being a shadowed activity cluster), G1 or generalization 1 being of the first-order extending until last two functions, and G2 or generalization 2 being of the second-order covering all functions. Each node being activities leading to goals.

Image

The backdrop is the lifetime of an agent. We are not necessarily only in spacetime here, and the numbers do not indicate an ordering of any kind.

ADD: Each point, although actuated as an identity/instrument implementation, is a time vector associated with a type attractor which determines the gradation of the agent valley.
Last edited by daylen on Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Stack theory 101

Post by daylen »

This may be a stretch but perhaps two bayesian machines could be setup as..

(Si -> Se, Ne -> Ni) x (Se -> Si, Ni -> Ne)
(Ti -> Te, Fe -> Fi) x (Te -> Ti, Fi -> Fe)

..with the following time template: (past -> present -> future) x (present potential -> past, future -> present possibilities)

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Re: Stack theory 101

Post by daylen »

Then for intuition/feeling building, the activity square of an agent lifetime above can be mapped into AQAL or (ego, eco) x (singular, plural), where the functions can be visualized as flows in the area outside activity points of actuation where all functions are neutralized. Closer to the singular edge, perhaps corresponding to high state activities with higher relative unification of activities. Then closer to the plural edge, low state activities would tend to emerge. The ego edge correlating to an internal attention to identification, and the eco edge correlating to an external attention to instruments.

ST tracking and controlling instruments and NF creating and matching identities. Coming half circle.

Perhaps all simplified through an ellipse or a superposition of such ellipses generated through summing frequencies.

ADD: this setup may lead to issues with drawing boundaries around activities with discontinuous jumping up/down and/or left/right.
Last edited by daylen on Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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