Tactics For Dealing With Predatory Relatives In Old Age

[Ego]

Recent happenings here in Egoland have caused us to think ahead a few decades.

It is possible that someday we will need help. Usually that job falls to children, but they do not always have your best interest at heart. And some of us do not have kids. In that case, when something goes wrong, the authorities search for a relative or designated person who can make decisions. It is possible that the person may be outright hostile to your interests.

What are some tactics to protect against this happening?

Also see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D40uHmTSPew

[Tyler9000]

How to explain that I have recent knowledge of this even if I don't want to get into details...

In my experience, the number one thing to look out for is not a predatory relative or a court-appointed agent of the state but the spouse of the individual who needs help. A malicious person taking advantage of a legally incapacitated spouse is almost impossible to displace even by that spouse's direct children with documented evidence of abuse. About the best you can do is lean on adult protective services to step in and hound them to the best of their ability, but even they are very limited in what they can do. It's really hard. So my first advice is that if you see a loved one in need get into a bad relationship, step in and say something. They may hate you for it at the time but thank you later.

Beyond that, the next thing that you can do is to create a will. Be sure to include a living will that specifies in detail exactly who you want to be responsible for you if you can no longer make your own decisions. Give them legal and medical power of attorney when the time comes. Trust me -- it makes it so much easier.

For me and the DW, we also have no kids but we do both have a few siblings that we should be able to lean on if necessary. And while I don't know much about it, I do know that there are programs out there to help those even with no family. Here's a good article that touches on a variety of options.

And that movie looks awesome! I could definitely use a good revenge flick on this topic. But seriously -- I've also met some government workers who specialize in helping elderly people in need who could legitimately qualify as guardian angels. You wouldn't believe the heartbreaking situations they deal with on a daily basis, and the ones that stick with it are a rare breed.

Just in case anyone is wondering, while I'd prefer not to make this about me I'll at least share that my own story does have a happy ending. So everything is good!

[Sclass]

I have the opposite problem now.

My aunt up in Los Angeles is trying to get me to help her. She thinks I’m “available” now that my mom has passed.

She has two kids out of state but she doesn’t want to leave her home. Convenient I live closer. At least in her mind.

I just ignore her. 100% ghosting. Silly old aunt. Time will bring her to her senses. She and my dad are telling everyone she has me even though we haven’t spoken in three years. Idiots.

There are no guarantees in this life except death. If you become incapacitated you probably won’t have to worry about it too long. If you do, getting ripped off will only hasten the inevitable. I’m sorry I don’t have any magic advice. I got really cynical after caring for my mom.

ETA - I think the movie preview is an exaggeration. I know somebody who got his mother taken away in custodianship. He deserved it. The courts were at wits end trying to get him to step up to caring for his mom and it was clear he just was financially abusing her. Yep, they took her and kept her away from him.

I had to personally deal with this when I took care of my mom. Adult protective services got involved when my neighbors said my mom was wandering and I wasn’t doing anything about it. The minute I started taking action the LA County Sheriff backed off and rubber stamped my case as closed. I was guilty of not having around the clock care at a certain period of my mother’s illness. The county gave me ample room to take care of business and rectify the situation. I imagine if I ignored them custodianship would have been proposed. The cops really didn’t want to do anything at the end of the day.

Pro tip: if you want to defuse a situation like they show in that movie preview, just move one county over. If the old lady in the film was really of sound mind, moving a county over would throw a wrench in the gears of the entire conspiracy to take her into custody.

[zbigi]

Have a very good friend who has your best interest in their heart? I know, it's not really actionable advice.

[7Wannabe5]

Get involved in the lives of young people in your community. Maintain a social circle of peers. Make jolly plans to put an end to yourself and exit before you become that decrepit.

[chenda]

This is an important question which does not get nearly enough attention in the ERE/FIRE community. Strong social capital would definitely help but I think some kind of managed trust with reputable trustees (like a law firm) would help to protect assets, either from predators or your own irresponsible future self. I suspect we could learn a lot from old money families. Making things difficult for a would be fraudster with several layers of legal barriers.

Linked to this is the very high costs of care homes and nursing care, which no amount of ERE skills will likely help with. A decent nursing home can cost $1000 a week. Short of relocating to a low COL country, which in old age you might be unwilling or unable to, how are you going to be able to fund that ? Young(ish) people often just answer this flippantly by saying something like just 'give me a morphine overdose' which in practice would likely be illegal and not actually want you want.

[IlliniDave]

Like with many things, there are no 100% guarantees. Chenda's advice to have some sort of a financial trust set up, if possible with trustees who are also fiduciaries, is good. That at least separates the money part from the caregiving part, possibly reducing potential conflicts of interest.

[Ego]

We have some predators in the family. The degree of their predation was revealed recently after a death in the family. I can't say I am surprised or sad for the dead person. He was a top-of-the-food-chain predator himself. Many years ago he taught the others by sinking so low it caused Mrs. Ego and I to flee and never look back.

My goal is to protect us from the subsequent generations of predators who have reached maturity. They have a degree of hunger and desperation that their parents and grandparents did not have. Our incapacitation is far enough away (we hope) that we cannot know who we would want to make decisions on our behalf. And frankly, I would hate to put the burden on anyone.

The one thing we know for sure is who we do NOT want making decisions on our behalf. We don't know how we would make this fact known legally. I will have to look over living-wills again and see if there is a place where we can sneak this information in.

[unemployable]

So the frame of reference is "dealing" with predatory presumptive heirs, most often but not necessarily kids. Of course it can work in the other direction, parents complaining their kids aren't doing enough for them, as Sclass seems to be experiencing.

I have written about my own inter-generational family issues here and plan to provide additional insight when my annual term with Mom ends in another month or two. For now some stuff has happened and my thoughts are inchoate, but point is it's a related (ha!) topic. One applicable thought from that thread is that making decisions too early is greatly preferable to being forced to make a decision when you need to. How much of a will do have drawn up right now? If you were to die, who would get what, and for what reason (common law vs. named beneficiaries on accounts vs. spelled out somewhere vs. whoever gets there first/yells the loudest)?

Funny thing is I've become more ready to let go myself. If my sisters want to screw me over... it means more to them I guess, money isn't really a problem now, what I stand to inherit really wouldn't change my life too much and I can simply continue not talking to them. Not sure how you can tell presumptive heirs to be more stoic though. Give them Epictetus and tell them their share will determined by their responses to a 50-question quiz, perhaps.

If the kids are being assholes, is writing them out of the will an option? Or leaving them with like $1,000 so they know what you think of their behavior and that you didn't make a mistake. Isn't that money better spent on an estate lawyer than on them? What's the hangup, that you love them? Well you gave peace a chance. My relationship with my siblings -- neither I nor they have kids -- is such that I have designated a charity as my sole beneficiary.

I wouldn't worry about stuff such as furniture or invaluable keepsakes unless they're on the let-Sotheby's-handle-it level. They're doing you a favor by taking it off your cold, dead hands so eagerly.

If you're worried about how you'll be treated while still alive, have you signed a DNR?

The one thing we know for sure is who we do NOT want making decisions on our behalf. We don't know how we would make this fact known legally.

Isn't this covered by naming power of attorney, including medical POA, and executors of the estate, or am I missing something?

[Ego]

Isn't this covered by naming power of attorney and executors of the estate, or am I missing something?

I don't really care about what happens after we are dead. My concern is what could happen while one or both of us are very much alive. DNRs don't protect against young, motivated predators.

[unemployable]

But wouldn't the problem be they're imagining you dead? That's the literal definition of predator!

[Ego]

No. See the video in the first post.

[unemployable]

Does that happen in real life? With people who don't get caught? I've heard of house title fraud; not sure how big an issue it is or whether it's just something people on late-night tv scare you into worrying about.

In the real world you get served process and have a chance to answer a summons.

Using the right trust/LLC structure probably makes this a lot harder, although most especially with people who don't personally know you.

They can't come for you if they don't know where you live.

[bostonimproper]

Does that happen in real life?

Yes, conservatorship abuse is very real.

[theanimal]

Yes, as outlined in the movie and article, with an emergency order the court is under no obligation to summon you to appear. They are acting in your best interest after all.

I just became aware of a similar story of a guy who I've linked to in another thread:

This guy and his wife bought 400 acres in Northern California in 1968 and lived on the property since. They built 3 unique houses, homeschooled their kids and got much of their food from the property....
https://youtu.be/2qcsWajivnI

He's a 90 year old widow now with kids that have no interest in the property, yet he wants to keep his vision for the future and what he's created in place. He formed an agreement with Humboldt State University to give them his land and act as the conservator and carry out his vision as stipulated in the contract. Well within months of the contract they apparently began to stop upholding their end of the agreement. Not paying him, not allowing him access to his property, not doing any of the agreed upon tree management etc. According to him, his lawyers advised him that the concessions the university has made are more of a ploy to wait him out until his end. Beware of any institutions as well? Not entirely sure the lesson in his scenario.



It's worth noting that it's just as important to have this stuff figured out when you are younger as well. Terri Schiavo is the obvious example for this category or more recently, Britney Spears.

[Scott 2]

I don't think it's possible to establish a certain trust relationship that will last decades. Life happens. People and organizations change or die. With sufficient resources, the answer is to involve multiple parties. The hope being they provide sufficient checks and balances among one another.

From what I've observed - even a single party fully committed to the best interests of the elder, bolstered by essentially unlimited resources, cannot protect from the indignities of aging. So I err on the side of maximizing life prior to reaching an infirm state.


What I am doing:

1. Money management - simple portfolio, delay social security as long as possible. At least if I lose it all, I'll have an inflation protected income stream. Unpaid debt is one of the risks that trigger predators. I may also consider an annuity past 80. I considered, but cannot afford, outsourcing the money management to a reputable firm.

2. Healthcare - assuming it's still around, I'll take medicare original with a plan G and plan D. I'll have those paid directly from my social security. I am currently learning to use the medical system. I am sticking within the "better" systems in my area, despite them being more expensive. The goal is to actively engage in healthcare, while avoiding predatory medical professionals.

3. Long Term Care - I own my home and exclude the value from any SWR calculations. I also use a more conservative WR. The intent is to have sufficient reserves that should a long term care need arise, I can pay. I have seen and do not want to live in a government funded facility.

4. Diminishing Memory and Executive Function - I am habitually using a digital planner for my day. It includes my recurring annual tasks. The hope is with decades of practice, this pattern will persist, even as the associated facilities fail. My grandma got another year or two aging in place, using her notebook.

5. Live simply. A senior at my local lap pool wears Versace Slides. How much money does he have, that's he's swimming in $400 sandals??? Frankly, he's frail and presents as a lucrative target. I might have Adidas money, but my Levi's were $16. It's more likely I am confused with the homeless than pegged as a target. I also only have Adidas money. I'm far from the wealthy in my area.

[Mister Imperceptible]

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1164/1164-h/1164-h.htm

In the terrible wolf-struggle of those centuries, no man was permanently safe, no matter how much wealth he amassed. Out of fear for the welfare of their families, men devised the scheme of insurance. To us, in this intelligent age, such a device is laughably absurd and primitive. But in that age insurance was a very serious matter. The amusing part of it is that the funds of the insurance companies were frequently plundered and wasted by the very officials who were intrusted with the management of them.

This breaking of wills was a peculiar feature of the period. With the accumulation of vast fortunes, the problem of disposing of these fortunes after death was a vexing one to the accumulators. Will-making and will-breaking became complementary trades, like armor-making and gun-making. The shrewdest will-making lawyers were called in to make wills that could not be broken. But these wills were always broken, and very often by the very lawyers that had drawn them up. Nevertheless the delusion persisted in the wealthy class that an absolutely unbreakable will could be cast; and so, through the generations, clients and lawyers pursued the illusion. It was a pursuit like unto that of the Universal Solvent of the mediæval alchemists.

My guess is that the Rothschilds have their trillions because each Rothschild boy is raised to imitate the father. Words and contracts have no meaning beyond the flesh and steel to enforce it.

I plan to bequeath my principles to my future son, and relieve myself of control before death, because I see no other way for the assets not to be stolen.

[Sclass]

Ego it sounds like you have some horrible relatives.

Is there some reason you think these people will prey on you in the future?

Or, why them rather than anyone else?

My advice is to distance yourself. If they really suck as people you don’t need to be particularly close to them.

As for the original question, just run away from these toxic people. Ego I think your lifestyle and personality makes you resistant to these kinds of predators. How can you catch the Egos?

There are many institutions out there that will take care of you till death for a lump sum. I had a childless aunt who went into one at 75 and passed in their nursing center at 97. She gave everything to them. She had this window to settle all finances the year before she went in. It worked out well. I guess the trick is finding a trustworthy outfit.

The odd and interesting thing about her is she was a 1%er in social capital. She had dedicated her entire life to an orphanage. I recall she had hundreds of “kids”. They packed the church at her funeral and we got calls during her last years from people coming out of the woodwork to see if she needed anything. She told me she didn’t want to be a burden on anyone. And she specifically chose that old folks home so she wouldn’t interfere with the lives of her hundred “kids”.

I watched this film as a kid at a theater that played art films. It stuck with me. I didn’t understand it at the time and just remembered the raw sex scenes. But beneath that it is a powerful story. I didn’t really get it till I had to look after my mom. It’s about old people living in a struggling Japanese farm village where they really cannot afford to care for unproductive members. They have this rule where you have to wander off to this snowy mountain at age 70. Kind of Logan’s Run meets Kurosawa. It was brutal and poignant. The protagonist is still a healthy matriarch in the village at 70 but she willingly goes at the end.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084390/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk

[Ego]

Is there some reason you think these people will prey on you in the future?

Or, why them rather than anyone else?

Good question. It has been nearly fifteen years since we have seen the person who got picked apart piece by piece. Back then he was both mentally and physically tougher than all of them combined. He was ruthlessly disciplined in his habits and was usually three steps ahead of everyone else. He had risen to the top in a survival-of-the-fittest environment that was unimaginable. If his life were made into a movie, it would be unbelievable.

I guess I naively expected him to have some plan that would allow him to keep the predators at bay. If he had a plan, it did not work. He certainly did not anticipate that we would simply walk away from it all and never look back. The end was apparently very ugly.

I see no indication that they will prey on us and I believe our lifestyle makes it very difficult for them to succeed if they tried. But I want to avoid being overly confident. In the end, that was his biggest mistake. He thought he could use wealth to control. We have no desire to control. We have no desire to have any connection at all.

While our situation is an extreme example, I don't think it is unique. I thought it might encourage others to think about how their lives could play out and plan for the unforeseen.

[WFJ]

US perspective. All states have different trust laws and advice is dependent on AUM and state. For example, a basic trust in CA may cost $30k to set up and require the attorney to be a trustee at a cost of an additional $10k-$15k/year vs. the identical trust in another state will cost $1,500 for a one time set up and a balloon payment of around $10k upon death with specific instructions.

Due to the legal nature of the Netflix movie and complex tax/death laws, a good and trusted attorney from a small law firm with a good succession plan is advisable. If one has high enough AUM, a large firm might be worth the money but will cost you. It is also advisable to find an unrelated non-attorney 3rd party (CPA maybe) to serve as executor, but finding one is not easy as who in their right mind would sign up to battle predatory relatives for a small fee? Imagine stepping into the Brittany Spears situation and trying to mitigate that mess.

Not a lawyer, but would set up irrevocable living trust, make sure all financial institutions have this on file and forget about it. If the person in the movie had an irrevocable living trust, nothing bad can happen in that scenario. There are MANY other trusts and depending on AUM and sophistication of wishes that can be created and maintained. It is ridiculous the number and types of trusts that specify instructions and result in 0% death taxes for those who can afford the fees: GRAT, IDGT, Dynasty, QTIP, close to 20 others. I've recommended IDGT recently for tax planning purposes but would also protect against predatory relatives and con artists as in the movie. House could be in an IDGT and 100% protected.

The positive side of these issues is all are resolved when the money is gone.