"How to Drop Out"

[jacob]

I guess my point is, we only see the doors that exist in front of us at the moment. But the map is not the territory and opening up one door can lead to something else that we hadn't imagined.

Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Key when semiFI or living on the 25x edge with 60 years to go is to keep an eye out for the different potentials for money "yields". Money is just another kind of utility. As humans, we need a few of them but we realize that they don't all substitute for each other. Key is to avoid testing Liebig's law of the minimum with any one of them.

[Lemur]

Great blog. Bookmarked for further reading.

I liked the author's point on what type of jobs to look for (low-grade professional jobs where the income is above median but the stress and responsibility is low). I had a job like that once and I took it for granted (well the 2 hour commute was horrible) and decided to climb the ladder instead. Meh, no regrets, I moved from a $55k salary to six figures over those years and had an MMM style savings rate during that time.

This move did effect my mental health but not for all loss - an unintended consequence of a high stress job is that if you become at least somewhat competent in dealing with the noise and stress - it can raise your ceiling for what constitutes a stressful job. The door is wider and now you've a larger pool of so called low-grade professional jobs to choose from after you inevitably resign, quit, or get fired. This could be a strategy in itself - pursue high-income, high stress job to test where your threshold is and then you'll have a wider lens of jobs to choose from post mental health breakdown.

I am now finding myself with a new government job that I will start at some point this year with a similar salary and I have a gut feeling it will be much less stress then I am dealing with now. Still not exactly low-grade by the author's definition (the salary is far above median) but compared to what I currently do it should be much easier unless I find that the grass wasn't greener.

In a final thought....one could just learn better how to not give a fu*k anyway Mark Manson style (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Subtl ... ing_a_Fuck) but I sucked at that. Too much Guardian in me or something I guess.

[WFJ]

I've had at least 6 distinct full-time career jobs, where several of my co-workers are still at the same jobs in the same locations. Every job eventually gets old and was accused of "Dropping out" by co-workers when quitting. Experience at any jobs eventually leads to a long run of negative days/weeks/years and one can either give up, like the author, or look to build skills for their next opportunity. From an employer's perspective, dropping out, although makes for good blog posts, is most likely a path dependent error as once one gives up, it would be difficult to convince others that they have decided to engage once again.

Modern jobs are completely devoid of any danger and should never induce stress. Stress was developed to deal with a life-altering episode, a lion attack, where stress allows for a more robust reaction. Reading an email or having to redo a TPS report is not going to result in losing a limb and stress levels should reflect this.

Always desire to learn something useful.
Sophocles

[prudentelo]

Do you mean "from an employee's perspective..."?

Can you elaborate on your belief that dropping out is an error despite having done it(?) at least five times?

[AxelHeyst]

Reading an email or having to redo a TPS report is not going to result in losing a limb and stress levels should reflect this.

Well, yeah, they should, but they don't, for almost everyone, including people who are well aware of how silly it is that their stress response is being triggered by a tps report and have spent considerable effort trying to alter their stress response, with mixed results. Maybe these people (points at self) just haven't tried the right method yet...

Imo it's more of a fool me once... Situation. I hit myself in the face with a hammer for twelve years. Think from now on I'll just stay away from hammers.

[KRUMPn]

@WFJ I think a lot of the stress can be attributed to lack of autonomy, constantly being on edge from micromanagement, having to be in a place for 8+ hours even when you'd rather be somewhere significantly different, lack of purpose, being siloed, etc. As far as I understand the stress is low level but near chronic which is why it's an issue, where as your lion situation is high stress, but acute (i.e. the originally purpose of stress/cortisol bumps). Our bodies aren't really designed for the former. I think a lot of this builds resentment towards employment in general (it did for me early on at least). Maybe there are jobs where this is not the case, but even my situation (I consider this almost as good as it gets: remote, almost unlimited autonomy, relatively high pay and relatively low expectations). The company I work for is even relatively high on the Forbes best places to work. However, I still feel "bored-out" and would rather do something else with my time and be somewhere else a lot of the time. Also there is a distinct lack of purpose, no matter how much I try to generate one. It just feels draining, whether it should or not. Like @AxelHeyst said maybe I just haven't found a good coping method, but I don't know that having a coping method for your everyday life is a sound path.

To add to this, I did notice when I was originally going to leave last July my body started feeling lighter and a lot of aches and pains disappeared. When I decided to stay longer as my original plans fell through a lot of those issues came back within a few days and that was the only thing that changed. Not sure there's anything scientific about that but it was definitely noticeable.

[Lemur]

True ... it is mostly the chronic low-level stress that employment gives you day in and day out. Especially for our salaried people. And it is not necessarily just the work itself but the opportunity cost of 9-5 everyday where you could be doing other things. Higher stress for those who really understand the value of time. You could somewhat put a time cost of thinking about your employment outside of the 9-5 as well.

But we could learn to ignore some of the noise. The job is part of the system right? Another relevant note though is our mindset about stress itself...

https://youtu.be/dFR_wFN23ZY

The TLDW is we should try to view stress as a call to action (positive mindset connotation) as opposed to something to be avoided / coped with (negative connotation). IOW, growth mindset vs fixed mindset respectively...Easier said then done and takes practice. Speaking of raising the stress threshold - I could see this as a skill. And something worth building. From the wider ERE perspective - being comfortable with being different. In the long run, I can't see how anyone can "drop out" if they're not comfortable with going against the mainstream.

@AxelHeyst

Basically why I'm leaving consulting. Tired of dealing with the blows of the consulting hammer. Maybe the government hammer will feel different. The calluses has built up in my brain so that is what I'm going for personally.

[KRUMPn]

@Lemur I enjoyed listening to that episode around when it was released. I have definitely noticed in other endeavors when I just shift my mindset from "this sucks" to "this is an opportunity to test myself" the experience becomes much better and even enjoyable sometimes. It was nice to see that there's some tangible science to back that up. However, is this possible to maintain for the extended stretch that is full time work? It's much easier to implement when there is an obvious end to singular task, but when it's the same thing day in and day out with no real end, is this feasible? My guess is yes, but it's something I haven't been able to accomplish at this point. I mean as Newman says "the mail never stops". Maybe a good goal to test this would be to focus on shifting one's mindset on each task individually throughout the day.

[AxelHeyst]

It's a ratchet. The better you get, the better you better get. Unless you very intentionally hide from further responsibility, your demands will increase. If 'bearable and appropriate' stress is 100, then the system seems to be set up to dynamically balance at 120.

That said, I am appreciative at what I can handle now. 100 to me now is something like 689 to me ten years ago. This serves my current desires, because there are things I want to do that this ability serves well. I'm not sure it was worth it, but it is what it is at this point.

[KRUMPn]

Very true. I've noticed this works in reverse too though. From a physiological standpoint I used to be able to run around in shorts and a tank top in 20 degree weather and feel normal, but I stopped working on that and now doing so would require a huge push/shift in mindset to want to do that. I guess I do have the knowledge I can do it though, so maybe that's the actual "ratchet" part. I do wonder how well this type of thing carries over between domains. Does the capability to handle acute high stress environments really well make you better able to hand chronic low stress environments? I would guess to some extent you might not notice the chronic low stress nearly as much if the acute high stress is regular enough. Kind of like a callus of the stress sensing part of the mind? Back to my physiological reference, I would only be out for a relatively short period (maybe a half hour) but could hang out in ~55 degree temps inside without much issue for much longer periods of time.

I have had less issue maintaining the "I'm a weirdo" mindset that is really required of dropping out for whatever reason. Maybe that has to do with taking on the identity of being different? If you identify as being different, it's probably a lot easier to do most of the things involved in dropping out. I think these two concepts play well on each other i.e. using mindset to change identity and identity to open up mindset.

[take2]

Does the capability to handle acute high stress environments really well make you better able to hand chronic low stress environments?

I think there’s definitely something to this. After an intense workout most of what’s been stressing me out (work related, falling under chronic low stress) goes away for a short while. Usually 2-8 hours, depending on how intense the workout was.

I’m not sure that what you meant by an acute high stress environment though; perhaps this benefit is better explained by switching up mental exertion with physical.

[WFJ]

Do you mean "from an employee's perspective..."?

Can you elaborate on your belief that dropping out is an error despite having done it(?) at least five times?

The author appears to have completely quit society where after "I" left Initech to become a construction worker is learning new skills. Taking a new job to learn a new skills vs. learning how to dumpster dive and couch surf is the juxtaposition I was trying to convey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wczkA_cULYk

Would you rather hire Peter as a programmer after he spent 5 years as a construction worker or the author who spent 5 years dumpster diving? Almost all of life's lessons can be learned from "Office Space".

[WFJ]

@WFJ I think a lot of the stress can be attributed to lack of autonomy, constantly being on edge from micromanagement, having to be in a place for 8+ hours even when you'd rather be somewhere significantly different, lack of purpose, being siloed, etc. As far as I understand the stress is low level but near chronic which is why it's an issue, where as your lion situation is high stress, but acute (i.e. the originally purpose of stress/cortisol bumps). Our bodies aren't really designed for the former. I think a lot of this builds resentment towards employment in general (it did for me early on at least). Maybe there are jobs where this is not the case, but even my situation (I consider this almost as good as it gets: remote, almost unlimited autonomy, relatively high pay and relatively low expectations). The company I work for is even relatively high on the Forbes best places to work. However, I still feel "bored-out" and would rather do something else with my time and be somewhere else a lot of the time. Also there is a distinct lack of purpose, no matter how much I try to generate one. It just feels draining, whether it should or not. Like @AxelHeyst said maybe I just haven't found a good coping method, but I don't know that having a coping method for your everyday life is a sound path.

To add to this, I did notice when I was originally going to leave last July my body started feeling lighter and a lot of aches and pains disappeared. When I decided to stay longer as my original plans fell through a lot of those issues came back within a few days and that was the only thing that changed. Not sure there's anything scientific about that but it was definitely noticeable.

The only strategy I developed in these honeycomb cubicle matrix dystopian constructs was to use the mass resources usually available to develop skills and certifications and focus my brain power these new pursuits rather than the low-level droan of TPS reports. I would take as many opportunities to observe as many roles in the organization as possible and acquire free skills even if I never planned to use them. Always took the mindset that my labor is 100% flexible, could leave any day at any time, never look back, while the megacorp was locked into all kinds of fixed costs and administrative bloat giving me all the power in the relationship. All but the bottom 1%-5% of employees are less valuable than the risk and cost to recruit a new employee and usually coasted to be a 50%, build skills, focus on moving on from current employer vs. striving to be in the top 10% and be promoted within.

Some of my jobs were soulless and know of good people who had nervous breakdowns all due to the job, but only remember having a few short-term health issues mainly when huge divisions were being removed without notice and nearly everyone was stressed. The above was only possible with a low spend and a stash of cash. Without this, it probably would have been different.

[WFJ]

Well, yeah, they should, but they don't, for almost everyone, including people who are well aware of how silly it is that their stress response is being triggered by a tps report and have spent considerable effort trying to alter their stress response, with mixed results. Maybe these people (points at self) just haven't tried the right method yet...

Imo it's more of a fool me once... Situation. I hit myself in the face with a hammer for twelve years. Think from now on I'll just stay away from hammers.

If I ever even feel stress coming on, I asked myself if a relative from 200, 2,000, 20,000 years ago would feel the same. Me "I have to redo some paperwork and will miss the rerun of Ross-Rachel hooking up", or "Someone doesn't like the way I look at their shoes" ancient relative "I almost died collecting a pound of nuts today. Here's a Youtube clip of the episode". Unless my manager also moonlights at the Roman Colosseum providing fodder for lions, I ignore.

Stress is something that is only good for use in athletic/physical endeavors, ignored otherwise. Playing sports my entire life has also probably helped becoming aware of when stress is entering my body and adjust my thoughts and ask my ancient relatives for their sage advice.

[guitarplayer]

I am going to incorporate the exercise of asking ancient relatives things into my toolkit. It fits well with 2022 being my year of stoic exercises, thanks @WFJ. Also, had a laugh at the Roman Colosseum bit.

[AxelHeyst]

Yeah that's cool. My thing was to contemplate the inevitable heat death of the universe, but ancient relatives contemplation is likely more visceral. Something something social proof?

I still suspect that you (wfj) are a cognitive outlier, and telling people to just ignore low level stress is sort of like telling depressed people to buck up, but I'm keen to learn anything else you've got to share on avoiding and dropping stress.

[Western Red Cedar]

Stress is something that is only good for use in athletic/physical endeavors, ignored otherwise.

I think I understand where you are coming from, but ignoring stress is a bad idea. It will lead to mental and physical breakdowns. It sounds to me like what you are actually doing is addressing your stressors from a rational perspective and reframing your view of of the external environment. This is a valuable skill and you should keep practicing it. It is a fundamental tenet of stoicism.

It is worth noting that a lot of people are dealing with work related stress that is far beyond a late TPS report. Some people have highly toxic work environments with passive aggressive (or straight up aggressive) managers and coworkers. In my last job I had a death threat, which was added to the list of other colleagues who received those. It wasn't unusual for someone to scream at me or my coworkers for implementing local laws and regulations. That job was stressful as fuck and I'm glad I got out when I did.

Stress often results from working on something that is very challenging while you have low skills (see Mihaly csikszentmihalyi on flow and worker productivity). When you add familial/monetary obligations into that equation it quickly becomes a pressure cooker.

We are also inundated with news and negative messaging through the internet in modern times. Combine that with increased social isolation, and it begins to explain why stress/anxiety/depression are at record levels for teens (see Johaan Hari's books or Ted Talks).

What would our ancestors think if the sky was filled with smoke and you couldn't see the sun for months at a time every year?

--------

One of the issues with chronic stress is that most people aren't completing their stress cycles. When someone was running rom a predator the fact that they ran and escaped acted as a natural release valve. They completed that stress cycle. We don't do that often with modern stressors. We bottle it up instead. There are different ways to complete the stress cycle, but working out/exercise is my favorite. Even better if it is in nature.

-----

@Take2 - My old boss used to be a pretty avid rock climber. He mentioned to me that his climbing experiences helped keep work-related stressors in perspective.

[AxelHeyst]

+1 rock climbing helping with putting work into perspective.

Also, some people think their work matters. Whether or not they are correct is immaterial. I thought my work mattered, and therefore had a lot invested in successful outcomes. The dysfunction of the office thwarting my efforts to achieve successful outcomes was very difficult to distance from. I imagine it's easier to do so if you don't think what you're doing actually matters much.

[KRUMPn]

@WFJ you sound like you have a good system going. For the record, I'm pretty low on the stressed out scale. I've managed to progress to more money and less responsibility than I could have imagined all within the same company. I think a big part of that is due to front loading working "hard", which let me slow down and coast without issue because I've gotten over the first impression bias. Most of the stress is just self-inflicted from laziness or boredom. I think the constant job switching in pursuit of skills would be a way better route than the one I took in the long term as far as marketability goes. I took on most of my skill development on outside of work, because, as a software developer, I feel like most modern tech is scam-esque garbage. Not the actually mechanical tech, more modern software "innovations". It was way different than the dreams of it I had as a teenager.

So "dropping out" in your scenario ("dropping by'?) is probably much more sustainable and useful in the long run, if you can handle the cube farms that is. The third option as I see it for dropping out though is focusing on building skills that are marketable on your own terms (i.e. not pursuing them only because they are marketable but because they are generally of interest). I think @jacob's stint as a quant is an example of this yeah?

One of the issues with chronic stress is that most people aren't completing their stress cycles. When someone was running rom a predator the fact that they ran and escaped acted as a natural release valve. They completed that stress cycle. We don't do that often with modern stressors. We bottle it up instead. There are different ways to complete the stress cycle, but working out/exercise is my favorite. Even better if it is in nature.

YES! That's a perfect way of phrasing what I was trying to get across. The stress doesn't cause any immediate problems, but can just build and build with no release.

@AxelHeyst I can confirm, if you know your work is relatively pointless, stress can be pretty low and you can focus on out of work endeavors. As much company propaganda as I've gotten, they still haven't convinced me that I'm part of a family or what I do "matters." Probably less healthy long term for other reasons, but I'm not sure I could be convinced otherwise for the work I do now.

[7Wannabe5]

Jobs are like men, much easier to deal with when you don't need them, in general or particular. IOW, they're both like buses, in that if you miss one, the next one will likely be along in 15 minutes. Not worth getting stressed out over.