How to start and run a Mastermind Group

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AxelHeyst
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How to start and run a Mastermind Group

Post by AxelHeyst »

Recommended best practices, based on my experience booting up the first one.
  • Size: Any more than 8 is probably too many.
  • How to recruit members: The best way is probably to make a post in your own journal soliciting interest. The people who follow you the most are the most likely to be on the same wavelength as you, so they’ve already passed a “is this good chemistry?” filter. This means that if you want to be in a MMG, it’s up to you to show the initiative to start one! Probably at least a few other people will be in to it.
  • Criteria for membership: No lurkers. Everyone ideally either has a journal, or is active enough on the forum that they don’t “need” a journal - they’re a known entity. I think it’s important for the trust dynamic of the Group for everyone going in it to be able to check each other out and say “yeah, okay, I’m cool with joining a group with these people.” An exception might be that if you know someone who’d be a good candidate for your MMG, who isn’t active on this forum, but are active on permies or somewhere else on the internet, that might work out fine.
  • As a group leader, if you don’t have good vibes about a particular person joining, tell them no, nicely. An uncomfortable exchange now might save you and 7 other people months of drama and bad experience. Trust your gut.
  • The Trust Aspect: Everyone in a MMG shares emails and does voice chats. It’s possible for the paranoid to maintain anonymity even in a MMG (anon email addresses and masking up for video calls), but that’s very much not ideal. For those who want their forum handles to remain anon, they’re going to have to trust their MMG groupies not to dox them. Once the group gets going, that mutual trust becomes a comfortable thing but it can be a little nerve-wracking to hop on that first call.
  • Be organized. Once it’s up and running, the group pretty much runs itself. But it’s important as the leader to not waste people’s time, and to make participation as easy as possible for the members. So take the time at the beginning to get your group Systems running smoothly. If you have any specific questions about this don’t hesitate to ask me.
  • Structure: A video call every two weeks. The first ten minutes is a popcorn checkin on how people’s projects are going. The rest of the time is dedicated to one person’s Deep Dive - them doing a more in depth update on their Projects, getting feedback, etc. Once all members have had a deep dive (which will take (number of members)*2weeks), that’s one “formal session”. Consider taking a few weeks or months to have informal sessions: a call just to talk about the group and any changes you want to make for the next formal session, special topics, special guests, or even totally agenda-less social hangouts. Then do another formal session.
  • Have a chat channel for all group members. We use Signal. Have a main channel for Project Updates and meeting logistics (as the leader, send out a “see you all tomorrow at N o’clock for our call!” the night before, etc). We have a Lounge for BSing, a Food Channel, an Investing channel, and a GTD channel. We only make channels when a need arises, when we get the sense that there’s a topic that only a small subset of the group cares about.
  • Projects Dashboard. Make a google Slides deck, and each member gets one slide. On it, they have a description for their current Mastermind project(s), what their commitment is to accomplish by the next meeting, and any contextual notes.
  • Do a mid-week checkin. Send out on the main chat channel “How’s everyone’s projects going?”
  • Don’t let the main forum die! A danger here is that everyone goes into Mastermind groups and stops participating in the main forum. This would be like cutting off the branch that you’re standing on. Make clear that there’s an expectation to not totally drop off the radar on the forum. It’s natural for some types of participation in the forum to reduce, but make an effort (as the leader of a group and as members of a group) not to neglect the forum. Report back on group progress, update your journal, participate in threads, etc.
Any questions or additions? I’m also happy to share templates and do a one on one chat with anyone thinking about starting their own group up.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: How to start and run a Mastermind Group

Post by mountainFrugal »

I just had a chat with @westernredcedar and @axelheyst about starting more specialized groups and how that might differ from a general group. A few interesting things came out of the conversation. (we had this call scheduled before the flurry of new groups started forming over the last week...YEAH!... many of my basic questions were answered by these groups forming)

A few more thoughts:
1) The potential pool of non-lurking folks on here is not actually that large so that could quickly limit a more specialized group (not impossible, but might be harder).
2) of the folks that are active participants and think groups are interesting, there are even fewer who would share their personal info.
3) A more specialized group could allow the group to feed off one another to really go deep on some topic or area of interest. This happens frequently in the current long running MM group and would likely be enhanced with a more specialized group.
4) Perhaps a way to form a specialized group is to think about your web of goals and DM folks directly that might have similar goals as a way to form a group if you did not want to put out a general call.
5) Feed the summaries back into the forum under the appropriate threads (like this)
6) repeat

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mountainFrugal
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Re: How to start and run a Mastermind Group

Post by mountainFrugal »

Art Mastermind Group Update-

Originally we set out to work through the Gesture, Anatomy, and Portrait courses on www.proko.com (wait until December for steep course discounts). Now it is just whatever folks are working on which include these courses. It helps to provide a low stress, asynchronous, place to post and discuss art projects. It also offers a low level "push" to always be making something. I have personally gotten excellent technical feedback on some things I have been testing.

We started in Feb of this year with 2 users and now we are up to 4 on the discord server. Adding new users requires unanimous consent. Engagement is every other day on average. We started with just 2 channels but now have expanded organically to 7.
General- keeping it casual, welcomes, etc.
Pencil Miles - exercises, sketches, tutorials,
favorites - art that you made that you really like
improvements - art that might not land in favorites, but certain techniques that were consciously improved.
fails - hot messes, celebrate them!
motivation - influences, inspiration, other creations, etc.
workinprogress - feedback for pieces/concepts in progress

Keep it casual and low stakes. Only 1 of the above channels is for posting finished or close to finished work. This is perhaps the exact opposite of Instagram or other social media.

AxelHeyst
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Re: How to start and run a Mastermind Group

Post by AxelHeyst »

I have two ideas about MMGs:

1) Threads are not MMGs. Threads can be about MMGs, but MMGs are by definition a exclusive small group of people who know each other's names and faces who meet occasionally in realtime, in private. A couple of these attributes can be bent, perhaps, but not many of them.

2) Special interests aren't great organizing principles for MMGs. It's too narrow? I'm not sure what the explanation here is, it's more of an observation. The two (?) most flourishing MMGs seem to be organized around the theme of "we are ERE people and we want to kick more ass at being ERE people", and that's as narrow as it gets. The diversity of projects, interests, personalities, stories, etc, seem to provide a richness that keeps momentum up. Maybe it's because the focus is more about the *people* rather than the projects/topics, and people are more interesting to the sort of people who want to be in an MMG. (For example, I'm really interested in *my* projects, but I like running my projects solo. Hearing about other people's projects is mostly boring to me, as is talking about mine. But other people's *stories* I find incredibly interesting. The difference is subtle. But It's what I love about my MMG - 7 other stories that really engage me. I want to know what happens next in their stories.)

Special interest threads are great! (But see idea 1).

These are ideas, not rules.

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Re: How to start and run a Mastermind Group

Post by jacob »

The forum itself---especially by virtue of the journals---can be seen as a giant [asynchronous] MMG.

The synchronous "ERE" MMGs are smaller version of that on speed.

As far as I can google, an MMG in the original Napoleon Hill sense requires two criteria to be satisfied
  1. It's peer-to-peer. The idea being that everybody provides input and output to each other. A group with a teacher providing Q&A or a coach telling people what to do is not an MMG.
  2. It's result-oriented. Either individual goals or a shared goal. This also means that an MMG without goal(s) is not an MMG. Rather it's just a social club. I suspect some MMGs were formed because it seemed like a good idea at the time to make different one's for topics X, Y, Z, ... But it doesn't work unless everybody is committed to making progress on said goal. Also, if the goals are too different, it becomes difficult to meet criteria (1).
IOW, it seems to me that an MMG should closely parallel a student study group or a "training for a specific marathon"-club. As per viewtopic.php?p=270052#p270052 I also think the group-setting is more appealing/useful to some thinking styles than others.

(Being result-oriented may be a consequence of Napoleon Hill's time (modernism). I'm not sure of the process-oriented mentality of postmodernism fits well. In the postmodern groups I've been in, the process was the result. Even if no ends were achieved, most participants (not me) felt like much was accomplished. This is possibly due to postmoderns measuring progress in terms of "conversations had" rather than "things done".)

AxelHeyst
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Re: How to start and run a Mastermind Group

Post by AxelHeyst »

Yeah, "results-oriented" gets hard to pin down when serendipity, incidental yields, and social dynamics become part of what's being optimized for. I feel like the concrete goals/results I establish in my MMG are almost a necessary ruse, an artifice required to create the conditions for the *real* results. The thing/result I realize I wanted was... A crew. Something like a crew. The accountability for goals etc is nice, but the crew/relationships is why I'm in one.

That sense of close knit relation to other people is *the* thing that the forum can't deliver on. The forum is superior at almost everything else you could want from an ERE community, but the nature of it means it just can't deliver on closer bonds/relatedness (because anon, public, no nonverbal communication, etc).

That's just me, though, I'm not saying that's how it ought to be. More concrete and tangible results can be the true desired outcome for individuals or even whole MMGs; cool. I suspect the folks who stick in zoom-style MMGs do so because that relatedness is important if not quietly central to their motivation to participate. Im interested to hear people's reflections.

Eta: Maybe these are just social clubs, really, and I'm the one doing the abusing of the MMG concept. Hmm. Social club feels condescending though. If we called ourselves a social club wed take ourselves less seriously in a bad way, I think, and lose some of the magic. Maybe there's another word or phrase that would suit better.

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grundomatic
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Re: How to start and run a Mastermind Group

Post by grundomatic »

Without a doubt, having a closer connection to people I can see and talk to is the primary value I derive from the MMG. People on a similar journey. Being able to communicate live builds a connection with both those people and the ERE movement that I don’t feel when typing or reading a post.

What are we driving at here? Is it a nomenclature thing–making sure we aren’t calling something the wrong name? Making sure we are doing MMGs “correctly” and getting results?

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Re: How to start and run a Mastermind Group

Post by AxelHeyst »

The former, not the latter.

Whatever we do in our MMGs, as long as it isn't destroying the mothership (eg darknetting), if we're digging it, it's good. There's no right or wrong.

Calling things properly is always a good idea. What we're talking about is a learning process - reflecting on what we've learned by trying various things along this MMG theme. What's working well? What isn't? Why? Future people can learn from our efforts and reflections. (Sort of the point of the forum!)


A brief summary of the learning steps:
1. I cribbed the idea for MMGs from modern business/entrepreneur style MMGs. Actually first I stole the idea from The Stoa, but I don't know how they run their MMGs, probably woo psycho-intellectual AF. Anyways, entrepreneur MMGs that I researched are focused on results, and have the attributes I noted above. These are very much NOT social clubs. Results or gtfo.
2. As we went, we realized that MMG members did in fact tend to 'get ERE results', but a contributing factor seemed to be more the tight knit bonds / closer sense of community, rather than accountability or pressure to perform.* The first several months of the MMG I started, I tried to run it with results in mind. Then I noticed what was happening and backed off. There's structure to pursue results, and there's space to cruise. Members get out what they put in.
3. The Darknetting thread led to people trying thread MMGs, to keep things on the forum. I think those threads are great, I just don't see how they are MMGs at all. Those threads should keep at it! Lots of value going on! Really cool to see all that. Also, maybe I'm being uptight about the terminology. Call it a Thread MMG and that's fine. No one is actually confused about what the deal is.
4. It seems to me that it's hard to keep momentum in speciality topic MMGs. This is maybe because it's *too* focused on results, and doesn't foster an environment conducive to right bonds? I'm not sure. I'm not anti-special topic MMGs, it's just something I'm noticing and raising as an issue to consider.** For example, this forum or MMGs isn't the best place to learn technical skills. That's what YouTube and the library is for. The forum is best at sharing, collaboratively developing, and storing ERE related ideas (eg yields and flows thread) and stories/case studies (journals). MMGs are good for forming tighter bonds between ERE folk. Best place to learn speciality topics? The library and YouTube, or actual IRL training (eg animals woodworking course).


*It feels like we pretend to be after ERE results in order to spend time with each other / build stronger bonds. The incidental yields of these bonds is... ERE results. It's a strange thing that maybe is best if we don't think about it too hard. The real mind bender is, are we in it for the results or the bonds??? I think the answer is 'yes'. I think we should just keep calling them MMGs. It works.

**Often, I've discovered, my role in groups I've found myself in is to name an elephant. "Hey guys, there's an elephant right there, that's kinda weird, right? Is that cool or... Are we gonna like talk about it or...?" And then the group talks it out and it's fine.

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grundomatic
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Re: How to start and run a Mastermind Group

Post by grundomatic »

What you said seems to parallel what has happened in our group. At first we tried the "setting goals to be checked up on later" thing, but abandoned that because many weren’t operating that way. We then picked topics to discuss in our meetings, and then it seemed like we were running out of “universal” ERE topics. Now we are on to the book club format and reading Early Retirement Extreme, which seems to be working well.

I also agree that results have been obtained without a “hard focus” on them in the MMG group. My thought is that if modernists want results, and post-modernists want to relate, then the meta-modernist would want both, integration and all. Probably in addition to something I’m not thinking of or that is beyond me. But yes, maybe not think or talk about it too much.

I do think the MMGs have potential to broaden the reach of ERE. Help those starfish with different thinking styles or personality styles that might pick things up better (or faster) in a format other than the forum.

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Re: How to start and run a Mastermind Group

Post by jacob »

grundomatic wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:24 am
I do think the MMGs have potential to broaden the reach of ERE. Help those starfish with different thinking styles or personality styles that might pick things up better (or faster) in a format other than the forum.
Different learning styles, really.

I don't even think it's a modernist/postmodernist/metamodernist thing as much as it's a temperamental thing with the various forms of *isms being one temperament reaching dominance over the others.

Introverts and extroverts have different brain chemistry and by virtue of that will find some learning environments both easier and more stimulating than others. Introverts have fewer dopamine receptors in the brain but also a thicker amount of grey matter in the frontal lobes which also remains more active even in a resting state due to higher amounts of acetylcholine which is another neurotransmitter. This means that introverts are more easily overstimulated by too much external input while at the same time finding it easier to concentrate and mentally connect many different pieces of information from memory. Extroverts are essentially the other way around which makes it harder to both concentrate and mentally draw from memory but easier to banter with other people and find the solution that way.

Bring those two together and friction obtains. For example, as an extreme introvert, I can connect many more dots internally than can I can achieve through conversation with others---I consider too many angles and frameworks for me to simultaneously output that into short spoken sentences; alternatively inputting conversation while converting it into complex contextual frameworks(*). IOW, my thinking gets both weaker, slower, and more exhausting in a group setting. This gets exponentially worse the more people there are. I can compensate somewhat by strategizing about what I want to say in advance. This also has a cost of course. When I show up in a group it becomes more of a question of trying to "unload" prepared talking points than an actual conversation. Thus in my case, the ROI of bantering in terms of generating new ideas is near zero if not negative. The cost is generally higher than the gain.

(*) This is also why I almost never bother listening to podcasts.

And the opposite holds for extroverts insofar they are made to sit and a process several paragraphs of texts in order to connect on a forum or by correspondence. Not only does ink on paper not provide the dopamine fix of seeing human faces or hearing human voices, but the relative lack of acetylcholine makes reading and contemplation exhausting rather than stimulating. And so the extrovert mind weakens in the company of itself just like the introvert's brain weakens in the company of others but for different reasons. In a group-setting the mind of an extrovert is energized, getting both stronger and faster than when alone. This is why isolated extroverts risk depression.

The ideal solution (the metamodern one) is to have a combination of both. Not necessarily that the people involved have to master both---that's too much to ask---but that there are mechanisms in place to translate between the two. One mechanism might be ambiverts who are comfortable with both formats. Another may be different formats---a kind of exogenous solution. One example of such a link might be for the introverts to do presentations and then for the extroverts to talk about those presentations. Of course, several links are needed to have a feedback loop ensuring that information doesn't just flow one way.

Therefore, it is good that we now have both the forum and the MMGs w/o having one-side go dark on the other or vice versa.

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Re: How to start and run a Mastermind Group

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote: One mechanism might be ambiverts who are comfortable with both format.
As an ambivert, it has been my experience that this sort of thing is oftentimes a thankless, not entirely comfortable, job for the ambivert. For instance, a natural job for an xNTP might be something like owner of an art gallery who has to deal with moody, introverted artists who go into black spells where they produce nothing or only work that is so dark and abstract it is inaccessible to the more extroverted clueless public to whom she must explain its value in order to make sales or acquire investment. For somebody on the more nerdy end of the Explorer personality, introverted humans are like regions on the map that are more difficult to reach, thus more likely to provide unique ideas/art for trading or integration elsewhere. That's why a gallery owner might be given credit for "discovering" an artist. However, it is often the case that instead of being given "credit" for anything, she will instead be disdained by the introverts who see no value in "popularization" of their work and/or crushed by the extroverts who don't much like the notion that they don't fully comprehend the value within realms such as abstract art or mathematics. Therefore, dealing with both of these more extreme types at the same time, whether at the dinner table, in the gallery, the IT business, or in the classroom, is even more of a tightrope walking trick.

Also, I have to wonder whether even the live video format of an MMG provides a realistic social environment. By analogy, in the realm of online dating, it is well known that relationships based on "just writing" or "just photos" or "just phone conversations" are unrealistic- you have to meet in person. I would even go so far as to say that you can't really get to "know" a person in any neutral territory such as a coffee shop. This is due in part to the fact that many humans are more action oriented, so their personalities aren't fully revealed through writing, photos, or even live conversation. But, maybe this is less relevant in a friends collaborating environment than a dating environment. Although, for example, I do think it would still be true that somebody who is very big and bold in their movements would be more likely to be looked to for leadership in meatspace environment, and it's also difficult to determine how naturally warm, huggy, likely to offer you a cookie somebody is in video conference mode. But, I suppose this doesn't really matter unless/until people really want to do something like form an eco-village together.

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Re: How to start and run a Mastermind Group

Post by Frita »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:58 am
As an ambivert, it has been my experience that this sort of thing is oftentimes a thankless, not entirely comfortable, job for the ambivert.
Agreed. Being adaptable with more black-and-white introverts and extroverts is work. As a P, throw in some J’s into the mix for an even bigger possible challenge. It really depends on the awareness and acceptance of different styles, recognizing the strengths and limitations as the potential of something greater by said exposure. What could be workable with one group of people could be tolerable with another or a total shitshow with yet another.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:58 am
Also, I have to wonder whether even the live video format of an MMG provides a realistic social environment.
I wonder this too. I personally struggle with Zoom because of the limited access to nonverbals and the vibe. Just facial expressions, voice tone, and words ends up being rather flat.

But hey, each to their own. I appreciate that the MMGs are evolving and working for some.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: How to start and run a Mastermind Group

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

I've found video calls to be in between forum interaction and real face-to-face interaction in terms of being a realistic social environment. You get to at least put people's faces and voice to their stories, whereas on the forum, everyone is just text. It's certainly very different than IRL FI groups, but I think it's a good in-between given that ERE is a subset of FIRE and therefore pretty niche.

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Re: How to start and run a Mastermind Group

Post by jacob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:58 am
As an ambivert, it has been my experience that this sort of thing is oftentimes a thankless, not entirely comfortable, job for the ambivert.
So it's like being a middle manager stuck between responsible-for and responsible-to, a rock and a hard place. However, insofar interaction is asynchronous, the exploration space must be bigger? Perhaps the answer is simply to let ideas diffuse. It's not like preferences are black or white stereotypes (that's just a convenient model space for duality-oriented physicists :-P ). Some arrangements do work.

Methinks the issue is with the adhoc arrangements that the internet now provides. There are no yellow customs and expectations in place yet.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:58 am
Also, I have to wonder whether even the live video format of an MMG provides a realistic social environment. By analogy, in the realm of online dating, it is well known that relationships based on "just writing" or "just photos" or "just phone conversations" are unrealistic- you have to meet in person. I would even go so far as to say that you can't really get to "know" a person in any neutral territory such as a coffee shop. This is due in part to the fact that many humans are more action oriented, so their personalities aren't fully revealed through writing, photos, or even live conversation.
This introvert begs to differ. This is not a universal rule. The deepest connections I've made with other persons have been via writing and/or chat. When it comes to live conversations, there's a lot I have to hold back due to the limitations of the medium that is conversation. Metaphorically, it's as if everybody had agreed that playing badminton (rather than conversing) was the one way to relate to others. However, the language of badminton is rather limited when it comes to the full range of personality or thinking. Obviously one can relate over badminton. It's also possible to communicate other racket sports in the language of badminton. Whereas a subject like swimming would be incommunicable and practically excluded. Maybe a better example would be that as a STEM person, there's much about how I see the world that I can't communicate to an innumerate person.

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Re: How to start and run a Mastermind Group

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote:So it's like being a middle manager stuck between responsible-for and responsible-to, a rock and a hard place.
Well, only on a bad day when I'm doing a poor job at "differentiation." I'm also somewhat close to being ambivert in T vs. F, perhaps due to socialization as female. I would assume that those who are more ambivert along S to N or P to J (you?) continuum have had similar experiences.

On a good day, I am quite good at tasks such as tutoring Algebra to social butterfly kids who just want to maintain grade in order to play sports.
The deepest connections I've made with other persons have been via writing and/or chat.
Absolutely. I probably have a deeper connection on some levels with many dead novelists than some of the not-very-literate kids whom I tutor. What I meant was that you can't discount the importance of "presence" in situations where humans plan on ultimately being in the same room or meat-space community. For instance, your highly advanced level of nummeracy has certainly influenced your relationship with others, but to what extent has the fact that you are very tall also influenced your relationship with others? Even if you don't regard it as an important factor, others almost certainly will. This might just be a personal quirk, but I always experience other humans as all being the same small avatar or window-box size when communicating on forum or zoom like environments.
Frita wrote:Just facial expressions, voice tone, and words ends up being rather flat.
Yes. It's like Zoom places all participants 2 levels further along the autism or adhd spectrum. For instance, in real life conversations often naturally break apart or come together into smaller or larger groupings. Humans don't naturally have structured full participation meetings.

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grundomatic
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Re: How to start and run a Mastermind Group

Post by grundomatic »

I sincerely appreciate the rundown on the brain chemistry. I've been thinking about possible ways for information to flow back to the forum from MMGs, and (surprise, surprise) haven't come up with much. I just posted the notes from our last meeting. The only thing I could think of was to take a favorite idea/point from the meeting and post it by itself as a conversation starter on the forum.

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Re: How to start and run a Mastermind Group

Post by sodatrain »

grundomatic wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2023 11:18 pm
I sincerely appreciate the rundown on the brain chemistry. I've been thinking about possible ways for information to flow back to the forum from MMGs, and (surprise, surprise) haven't come up with much. I just posted the notes from our last meeting. The only thing I could think of was to take a favorite idea/point from the meeting and post it by itself as a conversation starter on the forum.
Your suggestion from the MMG today, enouraging us to post *something* to the MMG thread was good I think. It's participation on the forum, should get the gist of the meeting across thru a couple posts, and is a way to share highlights/resources discussed. Maybe that's less generally helpful than a single scribe posting notes - maybe not! It's at least better than nothing, easy to do, and is a light burden to ask of people.

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Re: How to start and run a Mastermind Group

Post by jacob »

sodatrain wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2024 3:21 pm
Your suggestion from the MMG today, enouraging us to post *something* to the MMG thread was good I think. It's participation on the forum, should get the gist of the meeting across thru a couple posts, and is a way to share highlights/resources discussed. Maybe that's less generally helpful than a single scribe posting notes - maybe not! It's at least better than nothing, easy to do, and is a light burden to ask of people.
From the forum perspective, it's more interesting to see the individual takeaways (like what (spontaneously?) happened after the last meeting in MMG#2) than just reading the usual summary of what people talked about.

I'm personally much more interested in what everybody "thought about" than what "everybody talked about". This might be an introvert/extrovert thing, but I think it's now understood that group meetings mainly benefit the extroverts (and perhaps especially the loudest extroverts). And so a way to overcome this and get a more complete input is to also allow people time and space to think for themselves for example by writing an email/post later.

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Re: How to start and run a Mastermind Group

Post by grundomatic »

I suggested giving it a try as I was skeptical of the benefits of posting "meeting minutes" style notes. I also try to post discussion questions ahead of time so people have a chance to think about responses, and it also gives people a chance to say what they'd like to talk about (anyone can suggest discussion questions).

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