living out of my office in pursuit of ERE

Where are you and where are you going?
BeyondtheWrap
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Re: living out of my office in pursuit of ERE

Post by BeyondtheWrap »

Reminds me of this guy, Samuel Alexander, a mathematician who used to write a blog called Glowing Face Man and later called Xamuel. He wrote a blog article about how, as a student, he would sleep in random places on campus to avoid paying for housing. As a grad student he would sleep in his office.

https://web.archive.org/web/20090202153 ... hoice.html

OP, I assume you have a private, single-person room for your office? Do you have a key for it so you can keep it locked?

Autotroph
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Re: living out of my office in pursuit of ERE

Post by Autotroph »

Cool! I would be curious to see where they are now. In undergrad, I was a physics/math student so I hung out with both groups. In my experience, those majors do seem to attract some interesting people.

Not exactly. It is a private room. There are two halves to the room -- one is for newer graduate students (who never use it) the other half is for me and another graduate student (who only comes in on Friday and I have a rapport with -- honestly a nice dude). Yes, I have a key -- the door locks automatically upon shutting, which is convenient. Let me know if you have any other questions! As far as living in an office goes, this is a great setup. Virtually no risk of getting caught. Initially, I preferred this arrangement to my prior living situation. At first, I thought it was the novelty of the situation, but now I believe I really do prefer this. I don't have a roommate, I don't have a commute, etc.

To that end, an idea I had about a year ago was renting/buying office space in the area to live out of. I still think this isn't a bad idea, because commercial real estate is much cheaper -- but there are risks, etc. At some point, I may try it just for experimental sake, to show others (who might *really* need to do this kind of stuff) how to do it. Eventually, I would like to experiment with various living arrangements to see what I like best. Lately, I have been trying to sit on the floor more, especially when I eat. This practice I believe is common in Japan (?) but it actually makes a lot of sense to me.

This position will open your hips up and force you to use muscles in your upper body you don't normally use. Additionally, it's cheap (i.e. free), minimal, gives the room more space, etc. I really enjoy things like this. I believe every culture (that's been around for a while) gets at least one essential thing correct. In my mind, a culture could get a bunch of 'non-essential' stuff wrong, but get a few key ones correct, and persist through time. So I try to look at other ways of living through the eyes of a scientist: observing, collecting data, drawing conclusions, etc. To see -- what can I learn? How can I apply it to my life? Even the people who are 'ass-backward' and practice some absurd stuff, usually have one or two things figured out... well, it's worth trying to learn at least lol

On that topic, since childhood, I've always been fascinated by other cultures. It started with reading about hunter-gatherers and how they would persistent hunt. I was, and still am, blown away by the distances these people can move (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rar%C3%A1muri. Clearly, they know something most don't. I also enjoy seeing multiple different solutions to a single problem (e.g. convergent evolution) which happens culturally too. Although I don't much care for our current society, or for most individuals for that matter, I am fond of our species, and life in general. At least in our part of the universe, life is unique.

I don't think I'll ever come to terms with my belief that life is an absurdly complicated collection of matter that has somehow become self-aware. More broadly, even the simplest living organisms are incomprehensibly complex. (side note: see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2vgICf ... Animations). Complex systems originating from simple rules are fascinating to me (also see Stephen Wolfram's work). I try to use this to guide my life by focusing on the simple foundational rules (e.g. principles/beliefs/values) that I have. Minor
adjustments at this foundational level can have dramatic effects ​on the whole system (i.e. on your life, sense of self, etc)

I like to imagine what will come after homo sapiens. Perhaps a creature that is more rational ( https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/bound ... 0decision.?) Or perhaps there will not be anything next -- maybe we will advance our understanding of biology to the point of being able to manipulate our genome/species. Or maybe we'll be taken over by some self-replicating goo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_goo)

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/ ... rs/260198/

I think at this point the coffee has taken over and my thoughts are random, so I'll stop here. Hope someone enjoyed reading

shaz
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Re: living out of my office in pursuit of ERE

Post by shaz »

Do you encounter any difficulty separating self from work when you live at work?

Also, on the topic of penalties if you are caught, does your school or department have any rules against living there?

Autotroph
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Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:33 pm

Re: living out of my office in pursuit of ERE

Post by Autotroph »

Short answer: no

Long answer: Before I came to graduate school I left a cushy auto engineering job that paid way too much, with the objective of *not* separating my self from my work (and also: not commuting, not being lazy, etc.). Had I stayed there, I think I could have become FI in my 20s. But, I do believe I have made the right decision, which was to make my mental health a priority**. I have a lot of agency, healthy sense of self, and I choose not to separate myself from my work. My work is a part of my identity, a small part, but a part nonetheless. I am a scientist in my day-to-day life, and I also make a living from it. Analogously, sometimes I run for fun, sometimes it's due to fear. Sometimes 'work' is 'play' and vice-versa***.

I am happy and enjoy my work. The stress can be high, but I feel I've learned how to properly handle it through therapy. This month I will finally start to wean myself off the SSRI I've been taking since 2017 (fingers crossed it goes smooth). I see this as a huge milestone -- a sign of great progress, courage, and dedication to my health. Earlier this year I was clinically obese (although internally my mental health was improving, I just had bad habits lol), now I can almost run a marathon.


** I believe the strategy of 'working a job you don't care for to retire faster' is risky. As the length of time increases, I would guess the risk of 'injury' (e.g. decline in mental health, poor diet leading to poor health, poor posture, etc .) increases substantially and would start to outweigh the benefits fairly fast (at least for me). The relationship between 'risk of mental injury' vs 'length of time putting life on hold' is probably sigmoidal. If I put my life on hold for 5+ years to just mindlessly accrue wealth, I would probably kill myself (or in other words, the risk of suicide, for me, would be unacceptably high).

*** Physiologically, play and 'work' are quite similar -- elevated heart rate, e.g.

Also, probably. But by my own analysis (lul) the benefits outweigh any potential risks. I mean, even if they locked me up for a year I wouldn't be *too* upset. Three hots and a cot plus all the time to focus on my self -- let's go!

shaz
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Re: living out of my office in pursuit of ERE

Post by shaz »

That's an interesting perspective on not attempting to separate yourself from your work. I will have to reflect on it.

Autotroph
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Re: living out of my office in pursuit of ERE

Post by Autotroph »

Jacob also shares this view (read the first quote):
https://earlyretirementextreme.com/about
Last edited by Autotroph on Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

shaz
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Re: living out of my office in pursuit of ERE

Post by shaz »

I've had the situation where I was working from home and over time, work took over everything. I generally like my work but that was not a good situation for me. I am much happier when I also have non-work things in my life and if I spend significant amounts of time thinking about non-work things.

Autotroph
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Re: living out of my office in pursuit of ERE

Post by Autotroph »

Yeah, I have had that happen as well. In my case, I believe it was an avoidance behavior -- most of my behaviors were in some way. Now I feel I have a much healthier relationship with my work, and I enjoy it more than ever. I have a lot of hobbies that keep me occupied. Actually, I have *too* many hobbies: chess, poker, long-distance running/cycling, science, etc. I wish I had more time to pursue more creative interests like acting/theater, music, etc

Bonde
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Re: living out of my office in pursuit of ERE

Post by Bonde »

How are you?
What did you do during christmas and new year?

I work at a hospital and I talked about living there with a colleague about a year ago. The topic came up randomly and apparently we had both fantasized about it. You can sleep in the outpatient clinic, some of the office space or even in a real bed if one of the rooms for night shifts is available. There is also a large basement with some unused rooms and lots of lots of locker rooms for storage.
Food is easy to find. There are mostly plenty of leftovers from the inpatient units and one of the canteens is also open for dinner.
There is also fitness rooms that staff can use in the morning and evening and outdoor basket and football courts.
In a Danish tv show "Riget" from the 90s by Lars von Trier one of the doctors lives in the basement of the Hospital. He has a nice setup and access to pure alcohol for after work drinks.

DutchGirl
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Re: living out of my office in pursuit of ERE

Post by DutchGirl »

Bonde wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 4:23 am
access to pure alcohol for after work drinks.
You can do this for allll of your life. Admittedly, it's a short one. But still. :lol:


On a slightly more serious note: I personally found I couldn't seamlessly fit work into my private life, so I'm happy to have a home where I live with my partner, and a workplace that I need to travel to. I definitely also have a public persona for work - and I'm someone slightly different privately - I have more opinions for example. For me that works.

However, I can see this is working for you, Autotroph, and will work out nicely for you, or at least during this phase of your life, because who knows what the future holds.

Autotroph
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Re: living out of my office in pursuit of ERE

Post by Autotroph »

@Bonde

Never been better. And you?
In general, I don't like to celebrate holidays. I didn't do anything special, but I had a good time. Went for some good runs on the trails, enjoyed my vices, etc.

What a strange coincidence lol. Yeah a setup like that would work real nice. In my experience, the hardest part is the anxiety over getting caught. But I try to remind myself that none of this really matters anyway.

@DutchGirl
Yeah, I get that. Having the public persona for me is difficult -- it takes a lot of 'energy'. I am a hermit so I try not to interact with others unless I find them interesting. In academia, the office environment is quite different in that you don't really have to interact with your colleagues. Your actual coworkers/collaborators are probably in another country or state at the least.
Yes, so far I am loving life. This living arrangement has only gotten better as I have grown used to it. I really enjoy the small space, as I have to be creative with it. I would say the worst part is probably doing laundry because I have to walk like 2 miles each way to the nearest place.
Thank you. Yeah, another reason I wanted to do this was because I am single so I don't have to compromise with someone about the situation.

I do plan to keep a lot of the practices I developed here, e.g., no bed, no oven (a toaster oven is enough), etc.

Autotroph
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Re: living out of my office in pursuit of ERE

Post by Autotroph »

I have been quite busy lately so not much update. I have until June to graduate, which should not be *too* much of a problem. Lately I have been hyper-focused on my three passions: science, running, and poker, with running taking the lions share of my interest. Lately, I was thinking of the similarities between running (or any exercise, but particularly cardiovascular exercises) and investing.

They are both high-risk,
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/ ... imbalance.
and both activities have a small group that seems to defy everyone else (i.e. runners who never get injured and communities like ERE who avoid common financial pitfalls and retire extremely fast)

They both require sacrifice, but you get compounding returns. The name of the game is slow, steady, sustainable gains. With investing, inflation is trying to bring you down. WIth exercise, it's muscle atrophy. Both processes (atrophy and inflation) are out of your control and happen more or less continuously. I have been loosely following the 'kneesovertoesguy' (https://youtu.be/n8b0TSOWXWk) and he makes the same argument, but much clearer.

But, more importantly, I love the way running makes me feel. It makes me feel like a child The freedom, the excitement. I feel myself getting stronger, and when I look at myself in the mirror I don't even recognize myself. The boost in self-esteem has been amazing, and the activity is socially respectable. Most people know how difficult it is to run, so if you even put in a little effort you will impress most people. If I want to go fast, maybe let out some rage, I can. If I want to smoke a bowl and go for a chill run, I can.

Running and physics are also similar in the sense that they are both 'first-principles' kinds of activity. That is, running forms the basis of sports like soccer, football, etc. Physics is the same but for chemistry, etc. So by focusing on these foundations, it is possible to do well in all other areas

“Every morning in Africa, a gazelle wakes up, it knows it must outrun the fastest lion or it will be killed. Every morning in Africa, a lion wakes up. It knows it must run faster than the slowest gazelle, or it will starve. It doesn't matter whether you're the lion or a gazelle-when the sun comes up, you'd better be running.”

Autotroph
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Re: living out of my office in pursuit of ERE

Post by Autotroph »

It seems that most times I get high, I go for a walk or dance. It's crazy to me, I am in control of this body! Well, some of it. It's all so crazy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdjlbJj ... noFerreira

Feels good to be me again.

runnergirl
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Re: living out of my office in pursuit of ERE

Post by runnergirl »

Autotroph wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:06 am
But, more importantly, I love the way running makes me feel. It makes me feel like a child The freedom, the excitement.
Yes, running brings me joy and feeling of freedom too. Well, sometimes it is all pain but I forget that quickly after my run :lol:

ether
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Re: living out of my office in pursuit of ERE

Post by ether »

ever thought about just buying some real estate and rent out rooms or buying a duplex. Same impact to your overall cashflow if your tenants are paying the mortgage vs you paying the cheap office rent

Autotroph
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Re: living out of my office in pursuit of ERE

Post by Autotroph »

@ RG -- yes, for some reason, it seems the first 1-2 miles of any run are painful. The highs and lows are what make it fun :-)
@ether yes, probably eventually. I don't have the time/knowledge to do that yet. To be clear, I do not pay rent for my current living situation, as I am 'squatting'.

Not much to update on the finance side of things. Most of my 'portfolio' is in VOO. My living expenses are basically just food and MJ at this point.. It's been a while since I have gotten a haircut, and I'm hoping I can perfect the at-home technique to avoid it entirely.
No phone (I use google voice) for about a year, no car for about eight, and no rent since September (I think).
I have enough saved that I could buy/mortgage a house in my home state and basically just kind of coast from there on out if I wanted. Part of me wants to go back to the land my great-grandparents (and grandparents) homesteaded and build a cabin/house. I think it would be good strength training for my running, too.
In any case, I don't really worry about my financial future much anymore -- things will be fine, it's just a matter of slowly grinding away. Nothing particularly revolutionary, fun, or glamorous about it.

Now that my graduate school days finally have an expiration, I have experienced a few minor bouts of anxiety about what to do after. It does feel like the ending of a chapter in my life. I have been considering transitioning more to the life/health sciences, as there are more resources and a greater sense of contribution. I also find the human body to be fascinating now, whereas before I just kind of viewed it as a hindrance, i.e., a meat-bag. Running definitely made me appreciate its complexity. Well, that and specializing in biophysics. I wish I started focusing on biology sooner -- a lot of significant discoveries to be made, which isn't exactly the case in physics (IMO).

In hindsight, I wish I didn't do a PhD in physics, mainly because the first 2-3 years of the program were basically a fraternity hazing ritual, but nowhere near as fun (speaking from experience). Most of the professors I had were utterly pathetic and would be better off being sent home to stay out of everyone's way. Low self-esteem is the norm, and probably drives the type of behavior I see here. Perhaps my expectations were too high, but I didn't anticipate finding a bunch of washed-up losers who did something notable 20+ years ago and then became bitter old men. I don't know if it's a physics thing, the university here, or what. Most of the classes I took were unnecessarily difficult and largely counterproductive, the clearest example being E&M with the Jackson textbook. Most of the information was useless and forgotten long ago. Phew, that was good to get out :-D

I think this year I need to make more of an effort to be social. I have few friends these days, and most of them are too busy being rats to want to do anything fun/inspiring. Perhaps I will try dating this year again after a 5-year hiatus. Problem is, I generally don't find people all that interesting or worth my time.

As for running, I am on week 2 of the following training plan (https://www.runnersworld.com/uk/trainin ... ermediate/) and it is going well. My goal is to break 4:30 in the marathon at the end.

Autotroph
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Re: living out of my office in pursuit of ERE

Post by Autotroph »

Teenage rant :-D hehe
Eventually, I will organize the thoughts/feelings in my mind/body. Recently they have included an overwhelming sense of boredom, largely with 'society', and more particularly with those around me. And also a lot of (controllable) anger, which I perceive as good/useful. I am not certain of the origin of this frustration. Probably the slow and aching realization that as people age, they let their previous dreams (body, mind, etc) disintegrate. I don't care as much that people quit actively chasing such pursuits -- it's that they gave up entirely. When I talk to my adviser, e.g., he routinely relives his 'glory days', which aren't even particularly impressive. When I talk to friends, sometimes our youthful dreams get brought up, but then they quickly get axed by 'adult responsibilities'.
My internal response to such conversation is usually disgust, but I try my best to be pleasant. As such, I have somewhat self-isolated, as it's too taxing to mask my emotions/behavior in a socially acceptable way. Most of the time I want to kick the wall or punch something and shout 'NO!'.

I wish people were more interesting. It seems most people I know/have met are now blending into one archetypal person, including me. Cool, you have an advanced STEM (or similar) degree and are now positioned to make unfathomable amounts of money. What if instead you just threw it all away and started something anew? Can you do a funny accent? Can you make me laugh? Can you do a backflip? Can you do... anything interesting? My criteria for 'interesting' is *usually* what a kid would find interesting. Like children, I don't care about your career or how much you are worth.


Every day I go outside and I see rabbits running through the grass, and then eating it -- an envious lifestyle. Surely if a rabbit can survive out there, I can too...

Office life
As for living in the office, I think it has been about 6 months? I have largely nailed the rhythm, and things are going smoothly. I really wish I did this years sooner. At this point, I have gotten so used to it I usually forget I am living here. All of my meals are made with a toaster oven and (according to cronometer.com) I am receiving all of the key nutrients needed. I eat the same meals every day. Life is simple -- I like it this way. After this, I am really entertaining the idea of staying in the area and sleeping outside. I have found a handful of candidate locations and plan to do some experimenting with urban stealth camping in the upcoming months. There is a middle-aged veteran-appearing man who lives on campus and is barely stealthy -- I did discover his location.
I borrowed two water jugs from the kitchen -- 4.5 gallons each (which is ~43lbs). Great for farmers walks and similar in my office. I also found a great substitute for a kettlebell -- backpack filled with, e.g., textbooks, sand, water.


Misc
Making decisions is highly demanding cognitively. Continue simplifying routine life processes, e.g., eating, bathing, pooping, flossing. A recent victory was taking all of the food/meals I mostly eat for nutritional value and blending it. This basically includes all vegetables as I can't stand their taste.
The cultural practice of deep squatting for daily tasks, e.g., pooping, is valuable. I need to learn and practice more behaviors like this.

Autotroph
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Re: living out of my office in pursuit of ERE

Post by Autotroph »

I think for the last decade or so I have been fascinated with the question of "how low can I get my cost of living"? My reasoning is that if I can approximate that state of living cognitively, I have a kind of safety-net because I know the lower bound/threshold of what I need to have an acceptable quality of life (QOL). Not necessarily my 'standard', e.g. having a luxury like air-conditioning which isn't *that* expensive if its the only luxury.. But for me the ROI on an AC is huge because I much prefer cooler temperature.

In trying to answer this, I discovered that the relationship between my COL and (QOL) was bizarre. As I approach the threshold of bare minimum, my QOL starts to explode. I wouldn't expect this necessarily, but I think the reason is two-fold: (1) it's psychologically pleasing because it's goal-oriented and (2) this appears to have the side-effect of improving diet/health/fitness, at least for me.

To elaborate on (2), say I want to minimize my food expense (while also imposing the constraint I get the necessary nutrients and that it isn't time-consuming to prepare). Eating out is immediately removed as an option. Next I have to start cutting out all the unnecessarily processed stuff and opt for cheaper more nutrient-dense stuff -- oats and extra virgin olive oil being my favorite. These foods are less time consuming to make. I also buy in bulk reducing the amount of grocery shopping.

When I start to move away from my lower threshold COL, I start indulging in my vices more frequently -- e.g., eating out more, junk food, more drugs/alcohol, etc. These activities also leave me feeling fatigued -- guess I'm getting old(er) :-D

Also, if you could quantify the ROI of having your transportation be walking/running/cycling it would be absurdly high. I think if people understood that there would be much fewer cars. But the 'barrier' is too high -- it's going to be pretty bad for a while, especically if you're out of shape.

I much prefer life down here. I think it would be even more satisfying if I had some obnoxious amount of money, e.g. 5-10M because then it would be comical to have such a low COL.

sky
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Re: living out of my office in pursuit of ERE

Post by sky »

I agree. My life is relatively simple compared to most people, but I believe I could increase my QOL by further simplifying, walking as main transportation, plant based simple home cooked foods, and using foraged and gardened foods. I am moving in the right direction where I can, step by step.

candide
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Re: living out of my office in pursuit of ERE

Post by candide »

As I approach the threshold of bare minimum, my QOL starts to explode. I wouldn't expect this necessarily, but I think the reason is two-fold: (1) it's psychologically pleasing because it's goal-oriented and (2) this appears to have the side-effect of improving diet/health/fitness, at least for me.
I have another possible read.

Premise: beauty is how the human mind deals with complexity.

Minimalism is a great beauty in that it allows the whole system, or at least its flows, to ever-more fit inside your head.

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