Movement

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MidsizeLebowski
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:58 pm

Re: Movement

Post by MidsizeLebowski »

The most significant principles that are still overlooked in the movement world seem to be these:

There is an optimal range of motion for each joint, both hypermobility and hypomobility pose issues ( the former leads to a lot of ligament/cartilage issues while the other leads to strains/muscle issues or general stiffness)

Proximal to distal principle - proper mechanics begin from the “zone of apposition” outward. If you try to fix your elbow issue independent of the tilt of your pelvis you’ll see the former manifest as something new until you address the latter. (Alexander’s “breathe through your nose”)

Muscles can be “tight” because they’re hypertoned to the point of being functionally shortened, adhered to surrounding connective tissue, or are being pulled beyond their resting length. Assessing the antagonist muscles and using a foam roller/self massage tool will tell you enough to make an informed decision on how to proceed.

Scott 2
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Re: Movement

Post by Scott 2 »

Blackjack wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:55 pm
IMO skip the theatrics of the five fingers
I tried and returned a range of low rise / wide toe box athletic shoes. A couple versions the reebok nano, a few pairs of inov-8's, the new balance TRNR, and a pair of Altra's. I spent hours searching for the widest athletic shoes before settling on those. And now I'm back in a pair of cheap 4E new balance trainers, because they fit my feet.

I since figured out the problem is bunions, which have both widened the ball of my foot and tilted my toes. The thought is maybe a five finger shoe would accommodate this. I am waiting to see if or how some of the other interventions impact my feet. I did find a list of other shoe options to explore on the correct toes site:

https://www.correcttoes.com/foot-help/s ... oved-mens/

It's interesting to observe the balance between "buying a solution" and simply moving barefoot. I am finding many of these trade offs in the concept of movement as a lifestyle. They are complicated by limitations developed from decades of movement deficiency. Twenty years trapped at a desk has lasting effects. A full day on the floor is going straight into my knees, hips and back. My body demands cushioning and support.


Bowman's Grow Wild was heavily orientated towards raising children. Great for a parent, but I didn't take much out of it. Maybe a little more consideration around structuring my environment to encourage movement. No changes though. Her whole body barefoot audio book was available via my library, so I'm going to give that a listen.

KRUMPn
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:55 pm

Re: Movement

Post by KRUMPn »

Scott 2 wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:30 pm
I have had a lot of luck with the pairs of Vivobarefoot shoes I own in this regard, though if you need cushioning Lem's may be better. I haven't had great longevity with Lem's (Leather failed in a couple years, but that may have been my fault from improper care), where as my oldest pair of Vivobarefoot's are still holding up fine after 7 years. Unfortunately both are a bit pricey. I've also have had issues with Vivo's being different shapes between styles. Another option might be making your own. I bought this book about making moccasins but haven't gotten further than reading it. It seemed to have solid instructions though.

As far as the Correct Toes are concerned, I have been wearing them basically day and night for the last 4 months and probably the most noticeable difference has been the change in how my knees feel when squatting. Granted, my toes weren't particularly problematic since I've been barefoot and wide-toe box shoes for a decade now and I've always refused to wear those damn toe jammers. You may have more luck if you have more pronounced issues. I can't say if I'd generally recommend them at this point, since they are rather pricey and it's by no means a quick and easy fix. I figure I'll know after a year of wearing them regularly.


I appreciate the sentiment of this thread. Unfortunately, I am one of those "poor movers", evidenced by my multiple knee surgeries and relative injury prone nature. However, since I have moved to a more integrate movement practice, including barefoot/near-barefoot living, I have for the most part been injury free. I also have moved away from heavy weights as I was unable to get my form to a place that lifting that way was more beneficial than detrimental. I have basically switched to a version of Dan John's Easy Strength using kettlebells (lucked out with a hugely discounted 12kg to 32kg adjustable competition style kettlebell that has been great!). This has been integrated with mobility work and a yoga practice that needs more attention. Other than that I highly recommend people get on the floor and play around. Rolling, crawling, squatting and sitting low have really helped my lower back, knees and ankles "release". Also, I think there's something to sleeping on the ground or even just low that integrates this without much effort, since at a bare minimum you have to get up and down from the floor on a daily basis.

Blackjack
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:36 am
Location: Front Range, bikescore 99

Re: Movement

Post by Blackjack »

KRUMPn wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:23 pm
I have had a lot of luck with the pairs of Vivobarefoot shoes I own in this regard, though if you need cushioning Lem's may be better. I haven't had great longevity with Lem's (Leather failed in a couple years, but that may have been my fault from improper care), where as my oldest pair of Vivobarefoot's are still holding up fine after 7 years. Unfortunately both are a bit pricey. I've also have had issues with Vivo's being different shapes between styles. Another option might be making your own. I bought this book about making moccasins but haven't gotten further than reading it. It seemed to have solid instructions though.

Rolling, crawling, squatting and sitting low have really helped my lower back, knees and ankles "release". Also, I think there's something to sleeping on the ground or even just low that integrates this without much effort, since at a bare minimum you have to get up and down from the floor on a daily basis.
As a counterpoint I've burnt through 3 pairs of vivobarefoot shoes in a year before I gave up on the brand, and many of the members of my movement gym agreed that their pairs lasted them 6 months or less. It may be a function of which shoes you get from them + what you are putting them through, or maybe the quality is all over the place and I lost the quality control roulette. In the end I don't feel the need to evangelize any barefoot shoes over the others. Wear what you like and works for you and lasts.

I would also agree with this sentiment about squatting. I've normalized many ground positions as resting positions in my house and my life (spend 30ish minutes or more in a squat everyday ((not continuously))) move between many ground positions, and I only have good things to say about abandoning the couch and chairs. Something about it just "feels better" or more primal, giving me this actual physical connection to/with the ground. Reminds me that I'm just a silly monkey who one day decided to put clothes on and act self important.

enigmaT120
Posts: 1240
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:14 pm
Location: Falls City, OR

Re: Movement

Post by enigmaT120 »

Blackjack wrote: "Reminds me that I'm just a silly monkey who one day decided to put clothes on and act self important."

Oh I like that!

I hunker a lot. Makes me feel primitive, which is what you said too. Also I hate standing. Walking, running, sure. Standing, ugh.

KRUMPn
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:55 pm

Re: Movement

Post by KRUMPn »

Blackjack wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:49 pm
I have noticed that a lot of the barefoot shoe manufacturers have some level of quality control issues. Partially why I’d eventually like to try making my own moccasins at some point. Also, it sounds like we probably have different use cases. I mostly use their casual shoes in a mostly casual manner. Most of my workouts are done barefoot most of the time I’m either barefoot or in sandals. Agreed that wearing whatever works is the best route as far as footwear. Just wanted to add some options that I’ve found to work for me. Going barefoot as much as possible is probably the best “solution”.

I agree, rolling around on the ground definitely feels right for some reason. I always try to channel my inner monkey when playing with my nephews. Just seems to make you take yourself less seriously and in the end having more fun.

shaz
Posts: 420
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:05 pm
Location: Colorado, US

Re: Movement

Post by shaz »

A fun movement exercise that I like to include in my warmup is to get up off the ground in x# different ways. Once I get past 10 or 12 it gets challenging.

Scott 2
Posts: 2824
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:34 pm

Re: Movement

Post by Scott 2 »

Blackjack wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:55 pm
IMO skip the theatrics of the five fingers and get something barefoot with a big toebox.
Vibrams didn't work well for me. My misaligned toes don't match the pockets. I was also underwhelmed by the quality. This was the first time I examined a pair up close. For $40? I'd give them a shot. For $100? That's an expensive water shoe. With Winter rolling in, I wouldn't even wear them outside. Maybe I'll try again in Spring or a good sale. My feet will hopefully be stronger by then and might change shape.

After way too much analysis, I settled for a pair of Xero Prio. Some compromises - a little thicker than most barefoot shoes, slightly narrower than I'd like, still $96, etc. But, they look like normal shoes, are a big improvement over what I have, were easy to shop for (Zappos), and are cheap for quality barefoot shoes.

Most importantly -they clearly alter my gait. I can try the barefoot shoe idea immediately. That's better than chasing optimal shoes for the next month or longer. If I like the result, I can always try for something better.

I did strongly consider the cheap Amazon shoes - Whitin and Saguaro. The quality and sizing issues put me off. Having seen Vibrams in person, I wonder how much worse the cheap shoes are. Low durability seems like a function of chasing the ultimate barefoot shoe. The thinner everything gets, the faster it will wear. Maybe an argument for stopping at the Xeros, and then adding a minimal sandal for Summer.


Since I am lifting entirely at home now, I am exploring doing that totally barefoot. Especially during lower body work, it lets me pay very close attention to how the toes are working. I wanted to use the toe socks, but at 8 bucks a pair, lifting in them alone looks expensive. They wear quickly and are clearly designed to be inside shoes. I had to adjust some weights / exercises, but that's kind of the point.


I have integrated some of Katy Bowman's ideas around making the environment more active. I am standing on an Airex balance pad while I brush my teeth, focusing on using the toes. I threw a half round foam roller in the kitchen and am stretching calves while cooking. A couple more of the half rollers are on order, along with a few various sized massage balls. Those will add to the lacrosse balls I already distributed.

I'd like to incorporate some alternative seating into the house, but that gets expensive. I am also considering introduction of a rock tray in the house, for textured standing. A balance board could be fun too.


I reconsidered the time I spend at the gym. I returned to in person yoga, planning to take a class twice per week. My feet do feel stronger. Now that conditioning isn't tied to my lifting, I also replaced my time on the rowing machine or dragging a sled. Instead, I am actively swimming. Previously, when I did make it into the pool, I'd just hang out while my wife got her laps in.


I dunno how much further I'm going to take all this. I didn't really expect to get so caught up in it. I think there's opportunity to alter the downward trajectory of my joints. I find that appealing.

white belt
Posts: 1452
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 12:15 am

Re: Movement

Post by white belt »

Scott 2 wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:56 pm
Since I am lifting entirely at home now, I am exploring doing that totally barefoot. Especially during lower body work, it lets me pay very close attention to how the toes are working. I wanted to use the toe socks, but at 8 bucks a pair, lifting in them alone looks expensive. They wear quickly and are clearly designed to be inside shoes. I had to adjust some weights / exercises, but that's kind of the point.
FWIW, I lifted completely barefoot for my first few years of training. Regular shoes made me feel unstable for a lot of lower body exercises. I was low bar squatting, which felt pretty natural to do barefoot. I still prefer to deadlift barefoot (as do many powerlifters even at the elite levels).

Now I use lifting shoes for squats but that's primarily because I got into Olympic lifting and it's hard to hit the correct positions without an elevated heel.

I have horrendous ankle mobility, in part due to prior injuries. At some point I've been meaning to really dig into ankle mobility work to see if I can make lasting change to restore my full range of motion. I know from previous work that my ankle mobility issues stem from impingement at the front of the joint rather than the traditional achilles/calf tightness. I just haven't figured out a way to hang out in positions that require a lot of ankle mobility in modern life.

Scott 2
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Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:34 pm

Re: Movement

Post by Scott 2 »

I was squatting and deadlifting in socks, but wearing shoes for everything else. My feet didn't comfortably fit in my shoes under load. But, I thought of feet as a platform at the end of my ankle. I had to stop conventional deadlifts about 5 years ago. They were causing knee pain. I also had to put shoes on for anything even slightly explosive, like stepping up and down from a box.

I wonder if learning to use my whole foot will change that. I can see my toes doing stupid things all the time. Correcting it requires activation in my foot that carries up to the leg and hip.
white belt wrote:
Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:46 am
I have horrendous ankle mobility, in part due to prior injuries. At some point I've been meaning to really dig into ankle mobility work to see if I can make lasting change to restore my full range of motion.
I am not lifting at your level and have never learned the oly lifts. I also don't have any experience with ankle injuries. But, have you looked at some of the band distraction stuff, as it relates to ankle mobility? It seems to come up over and over as I look through these movement resources. Essentially, they are using a band to apply compression and traction while moving the joint. That's supposed to make it work better.

Blackjack
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Location: Front Range, bikescore 99

Re: Movement

Post by Blackjack »

white belt wrote:
Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:46 am

I have horrendous ankle mobility, in part due to prior injuries. At some point I've been meaning to really dig into ankle mobility work to see if I can make lasting change to restore my full range of motion. I know from previous work that my ankle mobility issues stem from impingement at the front of the joint rather than the traditional achilles/calf tightness. I just haven't figured out a way to hang out in positions that require a lot of ankle mobility in modern life.
Run tibialis raises 2x per week, and on top of that, start doing hip flexor stretches and strengthening. I know your calf strength is good, but build a small slant board out of plywood + grip tape , and then start doing single legged calf raises on this, focusing on the bottom of this rep, where the heel drops lower than the toes. I’ll edit this post with some video references. It’s always a bit difficult to pinpoint the exact problems in this complex leg chain, but I think you have the body awareness to understand if these are helping after a month or two. Also, once you build this slant board, hang out standing on it while pushing your knees over your toes (tension will go into your ankles) while you watch tv. The weighted version of this is sitting on a chair, feet on the slant board (toes higher than heels, and then start putting plates on your knees till you feel the ankle stretch. You can do seared calf raises like this too (3 sets of 20 is probably fine here for building up that mobility).

shaz
Posts: 420
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Location: Colorado, US

Re: Movement

Post by shaz »

Here's an interesting video about how foot function affects power movements including the squat and weightlifting. https://youtu.be/yzLQbvpzxlc

KRUMPn
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:55 pm

Re: Movement

Post by KRUMPn »

Scott 2 wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:56 pm
After way too much analysis, I settled for a pair of Xero Prio. Some compromises - a little thicker than most barefoot shoes, slightly narrower than I'd like, still $96, etc. But, they look like normal shoes, are a big improvement over what I have, were easy to shop for (Zappos), and are cheap for quality barefoot shoes.
@Scott 2 I know it's been less than a month, but I'm curious how you feel about you Xero Prios. Not that I want to turn this into a TEH BEST MINIMALIST SHOES thread, but I was lookin into those since they looked (relatively) super durable and I liked the shape of the other shoes from Xero.

Also I'm curious if anyone has read The Practice of Natural Movement? I found it very interesting, though I still haven't implemented the 2x4 training that is recommended. Just the breadth of information made it worthwhile for me (thought it was purchased with a gift card from work so I don't know if that opinion counts). My major concern is it's info all from one person, so if he has biases it would be hard to tell which areas are wrong. Nothing raised any immediate red flags for me. I don't know if it was as useful as Katy Bowman's work increasing integrative movement, but again I found it interesting enough to be worthwhile (though the movement part can be a slog to get through if you are reading it in order that it's printed rather than picking what is useful immediately).

Blackjack
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Re: Movement

Post by Blackjack »

I don’t have the full reference, but going by the only reference I can find (an article on art of manliness), it looks like it’s a bunch of balancing work on a 2x4.

If that’s the case, I’ve done everything outlined in that article on circular rails and much further (culminating in doing a bunch techniques on rails for 30 minutes straight without losing my balance / falling off, as well as completing really long rail balances with huge falls on one side or the other). It is entertaining in some sense, and it definitely improved my balance on rails…. But I’m not sure if that really translates to anything in real life. Mostly I was just being entertained getting good at balancing in different positions on the rails. I think all in all I probably have 100 hours-ish spent doing such things. and I enjoyed them. Just expect minor improvements in your ability to balance in awkward situations as the major outcome other than being able to do cool stuff on the rails.

KRUMPn
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Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:55 pm

Re: Movement

Post by KRUMPn »

@Blackjack That's interesting. It almost sounds like the 2x4 stuff could almost become a hobby rather than something useful and translatable to the real world, although if I remember correctly he connects it to traversing gaps on a log. The book goes much deeper than just the 2x4 stuff though. He goes from ground movements to balance to walking/running to jumping to climbing to lifting/throwing, as well as offering his philosophy as to why the reader should care. Part of my problem with it though is I definitely felt overloaded with information reading it. I'm still in the land of doing kettlebell workouts 5x per week with 3x running and walking/hiking on the other days so I'm not sure how compelling it actually was. Maybe it's just because it's easier to implement a set workout instead of a full day of movement everyday?

Blackjack
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Re: Movement

Post by Blackjack »

Agreed. It is 100% easier to just “workout” and gauge work done than it is to “have an active lifestyle” which is a almost a nonstarter when it comes to measuring progress and getting massively stronger, etc. I personally feel like this “active lifestyle” thing being described in this book either doesn’t exist to anyone or won’t hold a candle to any actual disciplined training regimens. No high level athletes exist off a “active lifestyle” alone.

I also think there is a set of “natural movement” people or “animal movement” people that have some idealized version of “health” or “healthy” that people used to be back in romantic time “x” when people used to live more active lives. And certainly yes, you would have a massively different set of issues if you lived in that time period and chopped wood and carried water and balanced on logs or whatever, but you would still have movement issues. Just, nobody had the massive compendium of knowledge at the tips of their fingers that we do now to learn how to solve our bodily issues, and the curse of having to sort through and discern the “good” info from the “bad” info.

I think the thing that many of these people are trying to get at, is that becoming a good “mover” is a complex task that involves learning and mastering many many movement tasks over an extremely long period of time, with the hope that the overlap is creating a big enough “core” to help translate to other new movements, and then you can introduce more and more complex things that are leaning on this “core”, and the uptake time to learn these things will drop as well.

This is also pretty much what high level dancers do, and the elite ones peak at around 20ish years into the practice, with much of that being 20-40 hours per week of work ( though the ones that make it into their 40s and 50s sometimes achieve even more incredible results).

So if you are chewing off just a little bit at a time, don’t worry, that is kind of the point of the show. And also, when you are reading this stuff, try and rip apart the romanticism of the past from the movements themselves, and try to figure out if there is usefulness to studying many of these things over a long period of time to you. Because it might not be, and that is totally fine. Or it might be something you want to study for several years and maybe even make a lifestyle out of it. I did that for 4+ years, and I’m much more happy and embody my physicality drastically more for doing so.

Personally I’ve moved back towards putting the bulk of my work / movement effort towards achieving long term strength and mobility goals that will theoretically translate more towards aging gracefully and being able to keep my physicality long long into my life, but I still love all the people I know who have made studying movement basically their lifeblood, and I see a lot of value in it. And when I’m finished with my current goals in a year or two, I’ll probably be back doing more complex arching acrobatics and contact improv in dark rooms immediately.

Scott 2
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Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:34 pm

Re: Movement

Post by Scott 2 »

KRUMPn wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:16 am
@Scott 2 I know it's been less than a month, but I'm curious how you feel about you Xero Prios.
One person's experience isn't useful when it comes to picking your barefoot shoes. I had to try half a dozen brands before settling on the Prios. My constraints include especially wide feet due to bunions, limited tolerance for a thin sole due to weak feet and a desire for non-leather shoes. Yours may not.

This site provides a good framework for thinking about it. I did limit the brands I tried to what is available via Zappos or Amazon:

https://barefootshoefinder.com/

With that said - as a starting point, the Prios have been exactly what I was hoping for. I can feel the texture of the ground when I walk. My shoe wraps around rocks instead of balancing on them. My toes aren't smashed, so I have less aggravation of my bunions. Since a heel strike is punishing, I am forced to stop walking like a duck. Hiking in the snow, I see a marked difference in the pattern of my foot prints.

My feet and legs have a long way to go. I cannot walk as fast or as far wearing the Prios. It takes about an hour for serious fatigue to set in. Also, now that I have this context, going back into my old shoes sucks. The casting of my foot feels obvious and uncomfortable. It is a change that will take time to evaluate. Over the next year, I expect to either be entirely on barefoot shoes, or injured and back in the new balances.

I am still working my foot health daily - balance pad, stretching, rolling on a lacrosse ball, manual therapy and toe exercises.

Around a third of my lower body lifting includes exercises related to using my feet better. It's all barefoot. I am weaning myself on to free standing calf raises. I use a silicone toe spacer between my big toe and pointer for single leg work. In my case - I need to compress that to bring my toes into alignment and working. Something like yoga toes makes my problems worse.

It's all very individual. I think the barefoot shoes are taking advantage of this work. I don't think the shoes alone would be enough.

KRUMPn
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:55 pm

Re: Movement

Post by KRUMPn »

@Blackjack The book I was is very much a technical "how to move" book that goes over proper form and common faults for a ton of movement patterns in the last half of the book, so it sounds like it would be useful to pick a pattern and practice one at a time slowly like you say. That would add variety and hopefully prevent over use injuries. This is all assuming the author isn't completely wrong about some of the patterns, but based on my history working on some of this stuff it passes the initial smell test. If I remember right the author even recommends continued specific strength and cardio work, but adding in a variety of other movements to get the full range of what the body is capable of doing. Also a lot of the ground movements are just plain fun (i.e. rolling around, crawling, transition to squat and stand).

@Scott 2 Glad to hear it's going well! Honestly, I was mostly curious about the build quality, since they look like they would hold up a lot better than many of the others I've seen/played with. That's something that's hard to diagnose in only a month though. It sounds like you are having the exact same experience I had when I switched over back in 2011. The freedom your feet feel is almost addicting. I haven't owned a pair of "regular shoes" since I switched. I tried on a pair of traditional dress shoes when I had a wedding that I was in, since they were the ones picked out by the groom to match the suit, but my feet felt like they were going to fall off after a few minutes with how tight and restricting they were. Maybe this is the biggest downside? Can't buy any regular shoes anymore. One thing I have noticed is that sometimes the fatigue is coming from a poor movement pattern rather than using muscles that were previously unused (although this might apply more to running than walking). One thing that has been helpful for me is to focus on movement from the hips powered by the glutes rather than pushing off with the lower leg muscles. It is definitely a long process. I highly recommend you take it extremely slow or else you will end up injured like you say. I'm over a decade in and I still have some issues. Although they may be more superficial than functional at this point. Some of my stupid toes just don't want to straighten out.

Scott 2
Posts: 2824
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:34 pm

Re: Movement

Post by Scott 2 »

Blackjack wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:45 am
I personally feel like this “active lifestyle” thing being described in this book either doesn’t exist to anyone or won’t hold a candle to any actual disciplined training regimens. No high level athletes exist off a “active lifestyle” alone.
It's interesting to watch Katy Bowman do a pull-up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAdy-_KAPKw

That was a WTF moment for me. This is the authority I've been listening to? Then I realized - her offer is a life without exercise. Health span as a byproduct of lifestyle design. For an untrained woman in her late 30's - having a pull up is impressive.

There is no comparison to serious training. But, that's not what she is selling. This is her audience:

https://www.nutritiousmovement.com/hang ... nging-101/

Scott 2
Posts: 2824
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Re: Movement

Post by Scott 2 »

KRUMPn wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:28 am
Honestly, I was mostly curious about the build quality
I think they are well made, comparable to my New Balance sneakers in quality. Much sturdier than the Vibrams. I don't run, so I am easy on shoes. I expect no problems.

Dress shoes have always been a problem for me. Wearing leather as a vegetarian feels inconsistent. Add on the wide foot constraint, and I end up in cheap plastic boxes. I've been considering the Xero Hannah as a compromise:

Image

They would be tolerated in the rare instances I need to wear a collar. Dressing down is on brand and these could offer a conversation point.

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