Ambition

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RoamingFrancis
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Ambition

Post by RoamingFrancis »

Hey y'all,

I decided to start a thread on ambition. To me, the statement rings true that one should develop themselves as much as they can in their lifetime. Skills (technical, emotional, and otherwise) are sort of the currency through which one can serve the world. (<-- a Green statement, maybe with a bit of Orange). I'm coming out of a healing process, during which I didn't have much energy for my life goals, and it was frankly very refreshing to ignore my Web of Goals for a couple weeks, shrug, and just think, "Yeah, whatever." I learned a lot about contacting inner femininity, softness, and letting go.

Now I am returning to other parts of my path, particularly wanting to Show Up for other people and put an emphasis on selfless service. And continue developing, growing, etc. But I would like to integrate what I've learned about letting go. In previous seasons of my life when I have done Epic Questing, it has been exhausting. Wears you down. So what does healthy ambition look like, one that integrates the desire to develop and grow with the the peace of accepting things just the way they are?

Furthermore, what does healthy and unhealthy ambition look like at different developmental levels? I think a good chunk of last year's ambition was Orange. Now I think I have a strong Green center of gravity. Excited to hear your thoughts!

AxelHeyst
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Re: Ambition

Post by AxelHeyst »

I’d start with digging into your motivation to be selfless and show up for others. Like, is it possible to possess a healthy ambition to be selfless? Or is selflessness something that is a side effect of something else, if it is to be genuine?

Put it this way: “my goal is to achieve selflessness”. Sounds odd doesn’t it, something is not quite right. What, though? Service as performance? Service as self-indulgent penance? I don’t know the answer, but I think it’s a good question to ask.

RoamingFrancis
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Re: Ambition

Post by RoamingFrancis »

Good question. I've been digging Wilber recently so I'll keep his framework. :) I'd say the motivation for me comes from having done a lot of work in the Waking Up, Growing Up, and Cleaning Up categories in the last three years, and wanting to be there for others in whatever capacity I can.

I suppose I should clarify that I reached a milestone in the emotional healing I was doing, and am in a place where I can shift focus away from those practices for the time being. As such, I'm feeling a return in energy for development, ERE, learning, reading, and generally "achieving stuff." And I am wanting to use that energy well, and thus considering the role that ambition plays in my life.

AxelHeyst
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Re: Ambition

Post by AxelHeyst »

Right on, but I don’t think you answered the question. :) You explained why you don’t have other stuff blocking you from pursuing selfless behavior (needing to grow up etc)…. But then just restated that you want to show up. *why?* Just because it’s the next step in Wilbers model? (Again, I’m not pretending to have the answers or that they’re easy. I’m just recommending wrassling with it a bit.)

Beyond that tangent (my bad), I’d say keep in mind that resting and rejuvenation is part of fulfilling ambition. It can be easy to adopt an unsustainable pace and feel like any idleness is contrary to the ambition. You’ve just done a big chunk of healing: think about how to incorporate ‘maintenance’ healing work and rest into regular routine. Aka put it on cruise control, not in storage.

Also possibly related, from Kalmus’ Being the Change:
“In my experience, community-reliance grows out of self-reliance. Community-reliance means contributing to community, so that the community is strong and there for you when you need it.”

AxelHeyst
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Re: Ambition

Post by AxelHeyst »

https://hbr.org/2020/04/how-ambitious-should-you-be

A place to start, perhaps: Examine ambition from the dimensions of performance, growth, and achievement, and how those put checks on each other.

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fiby41
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Re: Ambition

Post by fiby41 »

"The mighty do not feel sated even when their power is at its height;
just think of the vast ocean, always yearning for the moonrise so that it can swell further still.
Fate does what it must, but in my view it cannot increase
the sense of well-being of someone satisfied with just a little.

It is certainly difficult to win renown without ambition.
Water does not cease flowing until it has turned dust to mud.

Determined people make intelligence and reason their secure bed and headrest;
reclining on these, they can never flag.

Those with limited intelligence, become obsessed whilest fulfilling trivial ambitions,
whereas those with able intelligence can stand course undisturbed amidst great turmoil.

An ambitious person, no matter how far removed they maybe, will still be judged energetic.
For one performing the Austerity of the Five Fires, the fifth will always be the blazing sun,
however high in the sky.

In that light let your devotee's victory be credited to you.
Relish the outcome without actually participating therein.
In the same way, so the proponents of the Sankhya philosophy say,
what is apprehended by conciousness is attributed to the self,
neutral in essence yet experiencing the results of physical actions."
~ Balarāma to Lord Kṛṣṇa.

chenda
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Re: Ambition

Post by chenda »

I was thinking about this issue late last night (does my brain ever stop ?) There's a big part of me which would like to spend the next 40 years just lounging on a beach, fiddling with my spreadsheet, reading books and living a perpetual holiday as a dilettante.

Yet there is a slight fear at the back of my mind that at the age of 80 I'll suddenly think 'oh fuck, I've utterly wasted my life' and start to wish I'd become an airline pilot or a professor or something. I've always had this feeling I need to succeed at something big. And my life would be a failure if I didn't. Yet at the same time I like lieins and spend hours watching massage videos on you tube.

I don't know if this is some residual protestant work ethic which I've grown up with which is clashing with my indolent tendencies. Or driven by feelings of insecurity and low self esteem.

Mikebos's appropriately named blog discussed this issue in its final post:

http://lackingambition.com/

RoamingFrancis
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Re: Ambition

Post by RoamingFrancis »

Thanks for the contributions everyone. @AxelHeyst I don't know if I have a solid "why" for being drawn to showing up for others. It's just sort of instinctual.

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Lemur
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Re: Ambition

Post by Lemur »

@Chenda

I think you'll like this.
https://medium.com/the-understanding-pr ... 3da473d919

Nietzsche was always a big proponent that happiness is achieved through struggling well / against something --> going for big challenges --> "becoming superhuman." Like the idea of too much comfort like your stated post of living it up on a beach could in fact lead to boredom and unhappiness.

It is certainly intriguing. Perhaps ironically, Nietzsche very much had a protestant work ethic while declaring God was dead.

chenda
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Re: Ambition

Post by chenda »

@Lemur - that was very very interesting.

“Happiness is the feeling that power increases — that resistance is being overcome''

My take from this is that you can't be happy by trying to be happy. You need to work on something you care about. Actually work.

I feel I've been stuck in the mud all my life.

WFJ
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Re: Ambition

Post by WFJ »

RoamingFrancis wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 5:39 pm
Hey y'all,

I decided to start a thread on ambition. To me, the statement rings true that one should develop themselves as much as they can in their lifetime. Skills (technical, emotional, and otherwise) are sort of the currency through which one can serve the world. (<-- a Green statement, maybe with a bit of Orange). I'm coming out of a healing process, during which I didn't have much energy for my life goals, and it was frankly very refreshing to ignore my Web of Goals for a couple weeks, shrug, and just think, "Yeah, whatever." I learned a lot about contacting inner femininity, softness, and letting go.

Now I am returning to other parts of my path, particularly wanting to Show Up for other people and put an emphasis on selfless service. And continue developing, growing, etc. But I would like to integrate what I've learned about letting go. In previous seasons of my life when I have done Epic Questing, it has been exhausting. Wears you down. So what does healthy ambition look like, one that integrates the desire to develop and grow with the the peace of accepting things just the way they are?

Furthermore, what does healthy and unhealthy ambition look like at different developmental levels? I think a good chunk of last year's ambition was Orange. Now I think I have a strong Green center of gravity. Excited to hear your thoughts!
Some quotes from a little further back in time.

Our life is what our thoughts make it.
Confine yourself to the present.
You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.
The happiness of your life depends upon the quality of your thoughts: therefore, guard accordingly, and take care that you entertain no notions unsuitable to virtue and reasonable nature.
Adapt yourself to the things among which your lot has been cast and love sincerely the fellow creatures with whom destiny has ordained that you shall live.
Do every act of your life as if it were your last.
Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself, in your way of thinking.
Marcus Aurelius


A more recent example might be something like "Anti-Fragile" where living a fragile life will end up resulting in catastrophe. The example Taleb likes to use is that of bones, which is left without stress for a time, become weak and fragile. The stress of gravity and resistance are when makes bones strong, not rest. He equates this to life, career, other as stress is what makes for a anti-fragile and healthy existence.

I also detect a struggle between external vs internal goals and aspirations. Do you want to win an Academy Award or get barreled by yourself in Indonesia? There also a question of domains where one can be ambitious and how these outcomes are measured. Measurements range from wealth, consumption, health, recognition, free time, and many others.

My personal measure of success/ambition is a mixture of having free time and to maintain high levels of physical/mental health (which are highly correlated). I've had and have opportunities many would prefer but would almost definitely cost a lot of free time and a lot of health outcomes (which can be permanent/debilitating/life altering).

I am also old enough to see the downsides of ambition. One is a friend who always pursued high net worth activities and now spends most of his excess net worth (10x-50x of mine) to maintain his health, while I have maintained my health for almost free with a mix of exercise, eating healthy and avoiding/limiting stressful employment activities. Another is a person a few years older than me who shared many personal characteristics. We pursued the same career, he always pursued the maximum prestige (best University, best job, most external prestige), while I choose the road of health/time maximization (extremely low prestige almost an embarrassment by all external measurements). I would estimate that of everyone in the world, we shared a similar initial condition at the age of 22, but our decisions were completely opposite from that point forward. As a result of his pursuit of excellence, he put on 100+ lbs, was a physical wreck and died a few years ago.

One also has to be aware of the quest vs the achievement. If one is miserable during the quest, the achievement will leave one empty. Elite athletes often report depression after achieving great success in their fields as they sacrifice was greater than the reward.

guitarplayer
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Re: Ambition

Post by guitarplayer »

Ambition is on my mind every now and then, too.
RoamingFrancis wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 5:39 pm
[...]particularly wanting to Show Up for other people and put an emphasis on selfless service.
I wonder why you would like to stop on other people and not extend it to the animate and even inanimate world at large. This comes from me recently pondering how it is all stardust. What Greenfield was talking about when talking about a 'sense of impermanence' connected to not owning stuff, almost as if he wanted to dis-appropriate himself of his body or his self. And he might be onto something. When I think about striving for anything particularly laborous, I cannot bring myself to do it for myself. I am comfortable now and will be gone in a blink. Though the same would go for other people, they will be gone in a blink too.

But then I can change the frame of reference and think about the stardust again and about being so minuscule in its context. Then perhaps counterintuitively, I get the spark to act and achieve things, almost naturally. But this is very different from the 'high achiever' type of thing, though maybe these sometimes coincide.
AxelHeyst wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:28 pm
“my goal is to achieve selflessness”.
To me this sounds awkward because it is the self that wants to be no more, because of the conjunction of 'my' and 'selflessness'.

Generally, I think those who talk or write about selfless behaviour often try to cross over the bridge from self, religions would come to mind. On the other end you have those representing the modern fragmented scientific community talking about how all behaviour is selfish and the apparently selfless has got to serve a selfish purpose, like for example recognition.

Somewhat related, in the here-and-now one might pose a question where the self begins. Leaving aside whether the world is governed by the relationship of cause and effect, but accepting that it is full of feedbacks, I think it would be legit to ask questions such as 'is having a good sleep a service to others' or indeed 'how much helping others makes me feel better'. Equally, with over 30% of the body weight being other organisms one could ask 'is taking care of the body an act of taking care for the environment'. If the world is one, and it is all stardust anyway, selfless and selfish become irrelevant.

I once took part in a music workshop as a teenager, mostly jazz and blues and lots of impro. One participant shared a good story about 'groove': imagine a warm summer afternoon, you walk along a street with friends, nice mood, everybody's chatting, there is a party in the evening. Then one of your friends picks up a brick from the ground and throws it at a shop window, breaking the window. That person ruined the groove.' I appreciate how this can come across as 'not rocking the boat', but then when you think in terms of constant improvising and coming up with new forms, it is more about being engaged with what unfolds and in the moment, and responding to it.

@fiby41, some on the forum not versed in poetry (for lack of a better word) would use a commentary!

chenda
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Re: Ambition

Post by chenda »

I have no regrets. I have spent my life, so much of it, building up this country. There is nothing more I need do. At the end of the day, what have I got ? A successful Singapore. What have I given up ? My life.
Lee Kuan Yew

Blackjack
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Re: Ambition

Post by Blackjack »

In the spirit of others here, mincing words here pedantically, but I would generally prefer reframing to the idea of an abundance mentality instead of a selflessness mentality (but you may define it differently, so we may be agreeing).

In the idea of an abundance mentality, I recognize my own needs as a piece of the greater system. So when I generate a surplus (more than my needs in time, money, skills, etc) I can share that surplus with others. In the framework of the ERE system (as I currently understand it) needs are understood to be very small, and once needs are met (FI system set in place / small working time per year, etc), the potential to create a surplus with the time left can be very large!

Whereas, at least to myself, I would consider selflessness more in the line of “take the shirt off my back” kind of mentality that ends up sacrificing the self in the service of others, to the detriment of the selfless.

In the spirit of the rest of the question, it is easy to find the “healthy” level of ambition after the reframing. The healthy ambition is to give what you can after respecting your own needs (in regards to mental and physical wellness, time, skills, and money). Then you can measure potential abundance versus how much you gave, and see if it is close, or not close. A certain amount of finger waggling happens here with things like “hmmm did I really need those 3 ciders with my buddies that weekend” and my current best guess on how to deal with that would be to measure the delta mental health achieved from before and after the questionable activities, but I think some of the smaller details will always remain a bit fuzzy.

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GandK
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Re: Ambition

Post by GandK »

I wrote this on this board a long time ago, in someone's journal, in response to a train of thought about ambition and motivation:
A year or so before I decided [to get on board with FIRE], I went through a sort of crisis of faith in my career. I saw my entire career in software development spread out before me like sand on a beach, and my job was to build sandcastles. And every so often a big wave would come ashore in the form of a new technology or a new paradigm, and it would wash away something I'd spent several years of my life creating. And it hit me that no matter what I did or how good I was, my work would all be gone within a decade. Scorned even, the way all outdated code seems to be during a rewrite. There are people for whom that would not be a big deal. I'm not one of them.

In the few weeks it took for that impression to really sink in, I went from being enthusiastic and diligent about designing and developing software to hating my job (and utterly sucking at it for some time). I was never able to get over/past that image.

What saved me from despair and career chaos was detachment, pure and simple. I stopped looking at my career at the macro level and started managing it as a funding source for work that WOULD matter.... [and] when I stopped expecting to find fulfillment at the office, my ship righted itself. I did good work again, albeit for entirely different reasons.
I feel like in retrospect, this was the point in my life when I started using my gifts and talents to help others instead of to climb the proverbial ladder. But regarding healthy vs unhealthy ambition, there are those who would say my ambition was more unhealthy after my epiphany than before.

Is being mercenary at work in order to throw time at your passions and go volunteer for your favorite causes more or less healthy than being passionate about the work itself? Unknown. Depends on the work? Depends on the effect your efforts have on you and on others? I could lose myself forever in the belly button lint of this sort of math.

Western Red Cedar
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Re: Ambition

Post by Western Red Cedar »

chenda wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:32 am
Mikebos's appropriately named blog discussed this issue in its final post:

http://lackingambition.com/
Thanks for sharing this. It's probably been at least a couple years since I read that post, but it really rings true in my experience. It feels really good to set goals or announce a project but results stem from showing up, day in and day out, and putting in the work. It often isn't as glamorous as we like to think.

----

One problem with ambition, as discussed upthread, is that it may lead to an end state that we don't actually want. Self-reflection and a strong notion of self-awareness are important ingredients to pair with ambition. I listened to this podcast with James Clear and Ryan Holiday a couple weeks ago which is probably relevant to the discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QKd-ulbH5E

"Goals are good for one time wins, but systems are for people who want to win repeatedly." -James Clear

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