When frugality becomes frupidity :)

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LetsRetireYoung
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When frugality becomes frupidity :)

Post by LetsRetireYoung »

I haven't found a single mention of the word "frupid" on this entire forum, so I figured I'd start the discussion. :)

I've recently blogged about this topic - frugality vs frupidity. If you ever worked in some large bureaucracy (military, government, large corporations, etc) then you've probably encountered frupidity before. It's a mix of frugality and stupidity, an unholy abomination that appears to save money but ends up backfiring on you.

Neither "frupid" nor "frupidity" appears in any official dictionaries, which is a real shame... Here are a few examples:
Frugal: learning how to cook, making cool new recipes out of basic food staples (mmm, omelets…), eating whatever healthy delicious food is on sale (this week, it’s $1 for 1 lb of grapes!), and giving up expensive junk food (and soda) in favour of cheaper and healthier options.

Frupid: eating ramen noodles for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. You can buy 10 servings for $1, sure, and your grocery budget will be impressively small, but you’ll end up sabotaging your body with all that sodium and lack of actual nutrients.

Frugal: figuring out what exactly you need from a cellphone, then shopping around, finding a good deal on a good model (I use an Android Motorola phone with a fingerprint scanner, and I love it), and then sticking with it. Insure it or just use it until it breaks, then buy another one for ~$300 or so.

Frupid: buying a new version of iPhone every single year (what are they now? $700? $1,200?) even though a) the one you already have works perfectly fine, and b) the new model’s improvements are minimal. Ditto for all the other shiny consumer gadgets with huge PR campaigns, unless they’re legitimately necessary for your life, work, and/or business.


If you're a fellow Terry Pratchett fan, then you're probably already familiar with his great description of frugality vs frupidity:
The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that’d still be keeping his feet dry in ten years’ time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

This was the Captain Samuel Vimes ‘Boots’ theory of socioeconomic unfairness.
What about you? What examples of frupidity can you share so we can laugh with you and learn from you? :)

basuragomi
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Re: When frugality becomes frupidity :)

Post by basuragomi »

I'm not sure how buying a new iphone every year appears to save money in any way, superficial or otherwise?

In my experience, most people consider frugality and stupidity to be roughly straddling a 30% discount rate. That's besides the other definition of frugal vs stupid, where "stupid" means "whatever the lower class does" irrespective of the rationalizations.

E.g. in the cardboard vs leather boots example, cardboard wins at a 21% discount rate. So it's actually cheaper to buy the $10 ones continuously than to put a $50 pair on a credit card. And if your boots are stolen or eaten due to precarious or shoddy housing, another pair is only $10.

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LetsRetireYoung
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Re: When frugality becomes frupidity :)

Post by LetsRetireYoung »

basuragomi wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:56 pm
E.g. in the cardboard vs leather boots example, cardboard wins at a 21% discount rate. So it's actually cheaper to buy the $10 ones continuously than to put a $50 pair on a credit card. And if your boots are stolen or eaten due to precarious or shoddy housing, another pair is only $10.
In that book's universe, there are no credit cards. The one time a rich foreigner tried to introduce Ankh-Morpork to the concept of fire insurance, they burned down half of their own city. :lol: If we're talking cash only, then Commander Vimes still has a great point.

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fiby41
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Re: When frugality becomes frupidity :)

Post by fiby41 »

I can give an example of what could be considered frupidity... I've a friend who goes 'tis is expensive for a bag of chips but went by plane to his hometown at the cost of 100 bags of chips. He said that a ticket costs about 40 bags of chips but he had to pay more because it is the festive season and he booked one day prior to the day the flight was scheduled.

I play some part in this frupidity, as a day before this whole ordeal, I was helping him decide between train A that takes 11 hours to reach his hometown but costs 14 bags of chips and train B which takes 13 hours but costs 5 bags of chips... I asked weather he thought the difference in time was worth it when he made 4 bags of chips an hour (gross, excluding lunch, tea &travel times.)

Penny wise pound foolish I guess.

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Re: When frugality becomes frupidity :)

Post by WFJ »

For anyone who grew up with far les than average, this bias/heuristic is difficult to turn off regardless of AUM/SWR state. Extreme examples of Frupidity is using discarded hypodermic needles to shoot up, used condoms, expired pills and more subtle examples are going to the cheapest University, cheapest tutor/coach, eating fast/unhealthy food, buying cheap/unreliable/unsafe car, riding a bike on a dangerous road, forgoing a helmet/safety gear, using health clinics in some cases, taking the highest paying job but without any opportunities or learning useful skills (real options). I am constantly aware of the "Penny-wise-pound-foolish" saying as this habit is hard to break for most people who experienced less resources at one point in their lives.

I am currently dealing with this issue in my employment. My current position pays well and is easy, but has $0 of real options and opportunities and might even result in negative value if conditions turn south (get fired, merged, etc.). I have other opportunities with 10X real options or can also just resign and enjoy life for a while or permanently. It may prove to be frupid to remain at this position until the bitter end.

The one area I do/will and recommend abandoning all frugal habits is in regard to healthcare/selfcare. When sick or dealing with a condition, I abandoned all frugal habits and seek the best and second best healthcare resources in all cases. I recently traveled, stayed in hotel, a few hundred dollars to be evaluated by research hospital with thousands of cases after being treated at local resource. I know the statistical risks of over testing, but once a condition is present (Bayes) then over testing is not an issue. Health is truly everyone's most valuable asset and the only real finite asset that matters.

I also violate some of the ERE rules in seeking living arrangements when in lower population areas. In larger cities, although the general COL is higher, one can usually find more budget friendly living arrangements as there are usually several areas that are insulated from the dangers of larger populations. While in lower population areas, there is no buffer and I usually spend more on housing in Low cost areas than high cost areas due to safety concerns.

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GandK
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Re: When frugality becomes frupidity :)

Post by GandK »

I love the word.

That said, many examples you cite are examples of what people do when confronted with severe monetary AND time constraints. E.g. Ramen.

So: is frupidity inclusive of actual time poverty? Or does it only apply to laziness.

I can't in good conscience call people who eat Ramen after working 16 hours to feed 2 toddlers frupid. Seems like a survival choice to me.

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Re: When frugality becomes frupidity :)

Post by jacob »

"Frupid" is when you're consuming in the middle of the S-curve. "Never buy in the middle" or at least don't pay "middle"-prices.

Frugal is when you're producing in the middle of the S-curve. Never waste time producing outside this range, at least not for others. It's not appreciated (see above sentence.)

The balance is found right around being skilled enough to not pay/be paid---about at the "Compute level". ERE book chapter 4. More "spectrum analyzer" in Stoa1 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPvftqB-WXk

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LetsRetireYoung
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Re: When frugality becomes frupidity :)

Post by LetsRetireYoung »

Holy shit, the Jacob replied to my thread! Another thing to cross off the bucket list. :lol: Totally agreed on the S-curve, but I wanted to describe it in a way that could be understood by everyone, even those who aren't familiar (or comfortable) with curves or such. Conversely, everyone can understand that munching ramen noodles all day every day is worse than even the basic bananas/beans/rice/apples diet.

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LetsRetireYoung
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Re: When frugality becomes frupidity :)

Post by LetsRetireYoung »

GandK wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:46 pm
I can't in good conscience call people who eat Ramen after working 16 hours to feed 2 toddlers frupid. Seems like a survival choice to me.
Good point - I should clarify that I was not punching down at the poor. The ramen thing was a legitimate piece of frupidity that I saw on many FIRE-ish threads on personal finance reddit. There'd always be some wunderkind (usually a guy in his early or mid-20s who would brag about his $40/month food budget. After a few questions, he'd almost always admit that it was mostly just ramen noodles. :roll:

The Commander Vimes's boots theory is also less about time poverty and more about not using the available money wisely: buying inferior product multiple times instead of a single relatively expensive (but functionally eternal) product just once.

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Re: When frugality becomes frupidity :)

Post by ducknald_don »

jacob wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:55 pm
"Frupid" is when you're consuming in the middle of the S-curve. "Never buy in the middle" or at least don't pay "middle"-prices.
I've noticed this when we are shopping (in the UK). We are either in Aldi (budget shopping) or Waitrose (expensive supermarket where the car park is full of Mercedes and BMW's). The vast majority seem to shop in the middle (Tesco/Sainsbury's/Asda) but these places seem to encapsulate the worst of both worlds.

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