V02 Max Challenge

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Scott 2
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V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

V02 max is a measure of your aerobic fitness.

If you have access to a concept 2 rower, you can approximate it in about 10 minutes, with a 2000m row:

https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... calculator

Getting back into the gym this summer, I was at a 23. Over the past 4 months, I worked up to 34. My loose goal is adding a point per month. Now that I've burned my easy initial gains, this is proving feasible, but challenging. I'd like to level out in the mid-40's by next summer. It's hard to know where I'll plateau.

Anyway, consider this your invite to give it a try. With the rower being zero impact, it is accessible to most. I imagine some here can absolutely crush it.

jacob
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by jacob »

Maybe a Cooper test (how far can you run in 12 minutes) is more universally accessible?

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

Sure. The beauty of V02 max is you can compare across modalities. My game is the rower (my joints like it!), but no reason someone couldn't test another way.


It looks like the Cooper test offers a V02 approximation. I don't know how accurate it is:

https://www.brianmac.co.uk/gentest.htm


There's also the Queen's step test:

https://www.brianmac.co.uk/stepvo2max.htm

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

Sounds fun. Based on my longer tempo runs (10-20 km) and watch with HR strap monitor I get consistent estimates 51.8-52.5 (greater than 10 individual tempo runs). I will try the Cooper test at the highschool track sometime soon. If I can get on a rower it would be fun to compare all three estimates.

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

Found the endurance athlete :D

I know specificity impacts the testing. I imagine a running test would skew your result high for absolute comparisons, but would remain useful for relative personal comparisons.

The concept 2 algorithm tries to account for this, with a toggle for highly trained rowers vs general exercisers. It shifts the score by a couple points.


Maybe worth saying - if someone isn't actively exercising, starting with a max effort test isn't a great idea. The step test I posted above is (theoretically) sub-maximal. Another option is the rockport walking test. Similar to Cooper, but walking your fastest mile and HR is incorporated into the scoring:

https://www.whyiexercise.com/rockport-walking-test.html

You can pay someone to conduct more rigorous testing in controlled settings as well. About twenty years ago, I used to help administer sub-max treadmill tests at a gym They'd monitor HR and blood pressure the entire time, aborting if things went south.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

Thank you for starting this thread. It seems like your progress is going really well! Would you consider yourself a trained athlete for the calculators sake? I think increasing the VO2 max estimate is a good goal. I look forward to seeing your continued progress. Your warnings are also good for people just starting out.
Scott 2 wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:57 am
I know specificity impacts the testing. I imagine a running test would skew your result high for absolute comparisons, but would remain useful for relative personal comparisons.
I was curious about this too. I have done a lot of running so additional factors like good biomechanics (from training) would likely result in greater distance in the 12 minute test (and thus higher score) compared to a cyclist with similar fitness. I will try to do the 2000m rowing test. So I do not risk injuring myself in a max effort in a new sport, I might do 1-2 workouts on a rowing machine first to get the specific muscles used to it. A harder shorter effort would be really interesting.

-----
Other endurance training nerd stuff:
For my personal goals, VO2 max is not as useful a measure, because I spend more time doing longer easy distance. It certainly helps on climbs at elevation though! With the upcoming transition to XC ski season it would be fun to compare pre/post VO2 max. I usually spend more time XC skiing in higher HR zones because the overall impact on the body is not as hard as running. I always have to be mindful when coming off a good ski season because the cardio is higher than my running legs are ready for.

I typically use a test to measure my overall Zone 1 HR fitness base that is based on a three mile run. You have to keep your heart rate right at the Zone1/Zone2* threshold. An easy way to measure your Zone 1 threshold without a HR monitor is to maintain an exercise pace that you can keep by breathing through your nose only, no mouth breathing. This correlates surprisingly well with your z1/z2 aerobic threshold. The goal for long endurance (marathon and beyond distance) is to increase your zone 1 threshold over time. "Get faster by going easier". In the three mile test, you time each mile with nose breathing only. Your time per mile will increase for each consecutive mile in an individual test. You then come back to this test every 6-8 weeks of training. Your mile times will all decrease as your cardio/muscle system gets better trained and your splits will be closer together. Zone 1 training has several advantages with the main one being you can spend more time training in Zone 1 and still recover quickly compared to High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT) or Lactic threshold training. Shooting for 80% of training in Zone 1, 20% Zone 3/4 as overall breakdown in my plan.

HIIT workouts (or similar) are still important though to train the top end of your heart rate zones, just not as important for longer endurance events. If you are doing exclusively HIIT workouts, your VO2 max will increase faster, but plateau sooner because you do not have a large cardio base to build off of. It just depends on your goals of course! Cross-fit is a good example of HIIT and strength workouts. If you are spending most of your time with high HR zone (3/4)* efforts and then short periods of recovering, you will train that upper end, but will lack sustained endurance beyond 60-90 minutes. Greater work capacity for shorter amounts of time. :)

There are a few ways to define HR zones. I follow the scheme defined in Training for the Uphill Athlete where Zone 1 starts at actual cardio with HRs over 100-120, Zone 0 is resting recover, and a max effort at zone 5 (rare if ever). Other schemes have that shifted and different specific definitions. I like this method because it gives you physiologically meaningful proxies. Zone 1 ~ Aerobic threshold (pace sustained potentially all day). Zone 3 - Anaerobic Threshold (AnT, Lactic threshold, pace sustained for very uncomfortable 40-60 minutes).

https://uphillathlete.com/uphill-athlet ... alculator/

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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by jacob »

Incidentally, VO2max is just about the only human performance variable that is age constrained (it declines as you get older and although you can do a lot to slow the decline it is inevitable and steady) and not just activity constrained c.f. strength, stamina, max power, ... which can be maintained at "youthful" levels into your 60s. This is also why VO2max-type sports have masters divisions for people over N age where N is surprisingly low (e.g. early 30s).

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

For the purpose of the concept 2 calculator, I do not qualify as highly trained. I think most people who do are crew athletes. I imagine their skill development is similar to yours with running. The specific requirements:
If you have been rowing regularly for several years, training at least four days per week, doing a variety of workout types and improving your rowing scores, then we suggest selecting "Highly trained" when using the calculator.

If you consider yourself a fitness rower and don't push yourself very hard or do any hard pieces, then we suggest selecting "Not highly trained."
I use the rower once or twice per week, for 5-15 minutes, depending on my mood. I've watched a couple videos on form and pacing, but that's about it.


Thus far, I've been able to improve by resting less while lifting (4 days per week) and doing 5-15 minutes of conditioning after each session. I normally walk for 20-40 minutes on most days, and did add a little urgency to the pace. I am only doing things I find fun, favoring a minimum effective dosage strategy. No rush. As Jacob highlights - increasing V02 by any amount as we age is positive. I feel the difference in day to day life and reduced Covid risk doesn't hurt either.

The endurance training nerd stuff highlights limitations of my approach. When I plateau, I don't know if I'll adopt a more sophisticated plan.

My joints are starting to show mileage from 25+ years of lifting. These days, doing more often comes at the price of extended down time. I try to mitigate it with a wider variety movements. I also avoid exercise with a significant eccentric aspect (no running here). Not to say that precludes more aggressive endurance programming, but I will need to pick my point of diminishing returns.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

jacob wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:04 pm
Incidentally, VO2max is just about the only human performance variable that is age constrained (it declines as you get older and although you can do a lot to slow the decline it is inevitable and steady) and not just activity constrained c.f. strength, stamina, max power, ... which can be maintained at "youthful" levels into your 60s. This is also why VO2max-type sports have masters divisions for people over N age where N is surprisingly low (e.g. early 30s).
Yes! This is also why you have exceptional athletes putting up insane VO2 max scores when they are younger, but can still become better endurance athletes (longer distances) over time with more years of base training into late 20s and early 30s. The "high" VO2 max scores in the 90s are usually when athletes are their late teens or early 20s. A recent example is Kilian Jornet with a VO2 max of ~85-90: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%ADli ... et_Burgada . He won a ton of ski-mountaineering races when younger and then transitioned to ultra-marathons winning and setting a course records for Hardrock 100 Miler (Average elevation 11000ft, with 33,000+ feet gain and 33,000+ feet of loss over the race) and more recently completing fastest known ascent times for various peaks without supplemental oxygen.
Scott 2 wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:48 pm
The endurance training nerd stuff highlights limitations of my approach. When I plateau, I don't know if I'll adopt a more sophisticated plan.
Not that you need something super sophisticated. Once your body adapts to any loads you will eventually have to switch up your workouts to continue to make gains. It could be as simple as hard interval work outs of increasing length for the "on time" for your 5-15 minute rowing sessions. Gains are gains. How often do you switch things up for your lifting workouts? Maybe do the same for the rowing schedule?

Reduced Covid risk is something I have thought a lot about as well this past year and half. ERE philosophy in general (and I am not a master) made this past year and a half easier by nearly every dimension compared to my other friends.

J_
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by J_ »

By the way my VO2 max is at the moment 43, age 74. I sport several times a week (rowing, walking, cycling and in winter cross country skiing in stead of rowing and cycling). As it is it is good enough for me, I do not strive to get it higher.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

J_ wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:17 pm
By the way my VO2 max is at the moment 43, age 74.
Awesome! #lifegoals for me to stay this active into my 70s.

Gilberto de Piento
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Gilberto de Piento »

This thread for the visual learners: https://youtu.be/evJPzjgv-2s

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

I am going to test again on Thursday. I'll keep 25 minutes in mind. I am not trying nearly that hard.


A score of 43 at 74 is great, the highest category on every chart I've found. This one places it in the 95th percentile:

https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice ... 2-max.html

The article points to a more thorough paper: https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/a ... 0642-4/pdf


This one has a list of activities by V02 max. 43 is sufficient for competitive ice hockey and firefighting:

https://assets.firstbeat.com/firstbeat/ ... 6.2017.pdf

henrik
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by henrik »

In March 2020 I was measured at 51.2 (a treadmill endurance test at a sports medicine lab). Since then, after about a year of more-regular-than-earlier training, mostly running, I've been at 53-54 (Garmin's estimate based on training data). I think the estimate is good, because I actually can run noticeably faster than in 2020, or, in fact, ever... However, I'm wondering where the plateau will be or if this is it. Having read behind the links above, I'm surprised that this is considered such a good level for my age (42).

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

I'd enjoy getting a professional test. It's interesting to hear how close your Garmin tracks to the result. I am of a similar age and don't know that I'll ever see 50 plus. From a non-runner's perspective, that range looks exceptional.

I have read about an inflection point with endurance work, where high volume starts to damage the heart. It's an interesting book:

https://www.amazon.com/Haywire-Heart-ex ... 1937715671

Not a practical concern for me, but a fun topic to give the endurance athletes in my life.


My test day went well, logging a score of 36. That's a 4% improvement over my last attempt, about 1.5 points.

Coffee helped. I had nothing left in the tank. It'll be 5 weeks before I try again, without the strong dose of caffeine. I would be very happy to repeat a 36, under those less favorable conditions.

guitarplayer
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by guitarplayer »

I did a Cooper test today, ran 2740-2745m so according to the wiki formula, VO2 Max should be around 50.

According to my Garmin, my VO2 Max is 47. This was when I weighted a few kg more.

@Scott2, nice links, thanks!

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

Image
Did my Cooper test today at the high school track. That really hurt!

58.46 according to the Cooper calculator from the site @scott_2 links above. 54.6 according to Suunto software estimate. I will try to get on a rowing machine sometime soon to see how that compares for a nonspecialist exercise estimate.

theanimal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by theanimal »

Cool thread, not sure how I missed it before.

I just did the Queen's step up test and came away at 60.93 for my score.

I questioned the validity of the score, did some poking around and found this study. https://rc.library.uta.edu/uta-ir/handle/10106/27945
Which concludes:
The results of this study provide evidence towards the claim that the QCT might be a reliable predictor for VO2max, as well as HRmax. However, the equation used to approximate one’s VO2max tended to slightly, though not significantly, overestimate measured VO2max.
So yes, likely slightly higher than my actual level. I'll try the Cooper test in a month or so once the snow goes away. I'm surprised that nobody has developed a test involving burpees.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

theanimal wrote:
Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:03 pm
I'm surprised that nobody has developed a test involving burpees.
I think that for most of these tests they try to correlate what can be done in the lab with breathing machines hooked up. So cycling and treadmills are common because you can more easily control inputs like resistance, speed, incline etc, do the test, and then compare that on a track, stationary bike, or rowing machine. If you do a max heart rate test on a treadmill for example (and also a VO2 max test incidentally) you will literally collapse at the end and be thrown back into some pads. haha. That does seem like a "fun" thing to do once in a lifetime. :). Burpees might be harder to do that with because of all the movement and body positions getting in way of the gas exchange gear functioning, but not impossible. Maybe a freedom-to project for you? ;)

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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by jacob »

theanimal wrote:
Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:03 pm
I'm surprised that nobody has developed a test involving burpees.
The body has three energy systems. ATP (<30 second burst), lactic (a few mins / "aerobic overdrive"), and aerobic (forever). VO2max measures the last one. The test needs to be something that's not a strength test or a power endurance test. Burpees would technically suffice insofar you could do them for a good ten mins.

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