@scott 2 I do an annual full body assessment with a PT. I don't go through insurance at all; it costs less than $200 and is well worth it to me to head off injuries. I also don't bother with a referral. I located the PT that I use by calling a local college athletics department and asking them who they use because I wanted someone who works with athletes. I typically do the one session for the assessment and do one follow-up to get specific exercises to address issues that the assessment turned up. I think the follow-up session is $75. When I book I let them know I will not be using insurance and can get a lower rate than the insurance rate.
One thing that can cause knee problems when running and cycling is hamstring to quad ratio. If you have been doing a lot of squats you might look at whether you are doing enough hamstring work.
Also keep in mind that your muscles and cardiovascular system will build up faster than your tendons and ligaments will. That means you may need to consciously hold yourself back to give the tendons and ligaments time to catch up to your progress in other areas.
V02 Max Challenge
Re: V02 Max Challenge
Wow that's a lot cheaper than I'd expected. I guess it's no different than doing an annual eye exam or skin cancer screen. Not how I think about PT, but maybe that should change. My bikes get a tune up, why not me?
I hear you on the connective tissue limits. That's a big consideration in doing so much cross training.
I don't think I'm quad dominant. This knee has always been a weak spot. It would get aggravated lifting heavy as well. I consulted an Ortho about two years ago, before taking on the running. He did an x-ray and MRI back then. No serious damage. The advice was Advil and rest as needed.
I hear you on the connective tissue limits. That's a big consideration in doing so much cross training.
I don't think I'm quad dominant. This knee has always been a weak spot. It would get aggravated lifting heavy as well. I consulted an Ortho about two years ago, before taking on the running. He did an x-ray and MRI back then. No serious damage. The advice was Advil and rest as needed.
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jacob
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Re: V02 Max Challenge
This is what I dislike most about aging. This was not a concern at 18 or 28. Now that I'm 48, it's very much a use it or lose it proposition for each and every tendon. It's especially annoying since the cardio is "centralized". So one might developed excellent cardio with rowing ... only to be back to square one if switching to jumping rope. As such, the practical age-limiter for general performance may not be VO2max as much whether all the connective tissues are "maintained" at a strong level everywhere.shaz wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 2:57 pmAlso keep in mind that your muscles and cardiovascular system will build up faster than your tendons and ligaments will. That means you may need to consciously hold yourself back to give the tendons and ligaments time to catch up to your progress in other areas.
Re: V02 Max Challenge
Agreed. I used to walk into the gym, ride a bike for five minutes, then build up to max effort sets on a couple compound lifts. I could do it again tomorrow.
These days - improving v02 max means burning my entire envelope to safely strain. After Monday's hard run, the rest of my week dances around tired ankles and knees. Zone 2 elliptical or rower only. Even the weights are relegated to a recovery tool. My tendons are far more sensitive to impact and cry out when joints track poorly. Often, I bounce between cardio machines, to find what feels good today.
These days, lifting centers upon mobility and strengthening imbalances. 20-30 minutes before I ever touch a weight. Compression sleeves are a favored accessory. It's a rare day when I can go hard on a compound lift. They're always last, so the tired muscles need less load.
I end up using lots of bands, machines and isolateral work. It's all about finding a good strength curve, to get as much pain free stimulus as possible. Movement and blood flow are my primary goals.
I'd say that's why I'm most interested in finding "enough" with the v02 max work. I've gradually lost strength this entire challenge. I don't think I can get it back, without at least plateauing my cardio. It's likely I'll lose some. Pick both doesn't work anymore.
On the bright side - I found an obvious imbalance doing band assisted pistol squats last night. My cranky leg wobbles all over. And I can train it without any undue joint pain. So maybe I've got hooks into addressing the latest constraint. Time will tell.
These days - improving v02 max means burning my entire envelope to safely strain. After Monday's hard run, the rest of my week dances around tired ankles and knees. Zone 2 elliptical or rower only. Even the weights are relegated to a recovery tool. My tendons are far more sensitive to impact and cry out when joints track poorly. Often, I bounce between cardio machines, to find what feels good today.
These days, lifting centers upon mobility and strengthening imbalances. 20-30 minutes before I ever touch a weight. Compression sleeves are a favored accessory. It's a rare day when I can go hard on a compound lift. They're always last, so the tired muscles need less load.
I end up using lots of bands, machines and isolateral work. It's all about finding a good strength curve, to get as much pain free stimulus as possible. Movement and blood flow are my primary goals.
I'd say that's why I'm most interested in finding "enough" with the v02 max work. I've gradually lost strength this entire challenge. I don't think I can get it back, without at least plateauing my cardio. It's likely I'll lose some. Pick both doesn't work anymore.
On the bright side - I found an obvious imbalance doing band assisted pistol squats last night. My cranky leg wobbles all over. And I can train it without any undue joint pain. So maybe I've got hooks into addressing the latest constraint. Time will tell.
Re: V02 Max Challenge
The two of you are doing a great job illustrating why sport specialization is the best strategy for short-term peak performance in an sport, but a poor strategy for long-term athletic development.
@Scott 2 zone 2 work can be easy on the cardiovascular system (which is what you are measuring) but demanding on your connective tissue. Something to keep in mind.
It is very encouraging that you have identified one imbalance to address.
@Scott 2 zone 2 work can be easy on the cardiovascular system (which is what you are measuring) but demanding on your connective tissue. Something to keep in mind.
It is very encouraging that you have identified one imbalance to address.
Re: V02 Max Challenge
On Monday in particular, it was about joy. That run was for me. Exploring the very limits of my body, in perfect weather, over a distance I still consider aspirational. Autumn in the forest preserve is a favorite time, so this was what I'd consider a peak human experience. I don't know how many times I'll get something like that.
There was another time in early spring - running through the prairie, watching the sun rise while wind bent the tall grass. Just me and the birds. It felt rewarding, in a very primal way. It's rare to be so fully present.
Continuing to escalate - I'm less sure about. I do like to chase a high score. But now one of my toenails is falling off. Is further striving the development of character? Triumph in the face of adversity? Or is it being too stubborn for my own good?
I don't think there's a simple answer. Biking hard reveals my limits too. As does lifting, yoga, etc. Puzzling through each constraint is very compelling. It's in my nature to escalate until I cannot. Then I lose interest. It's not the easiest trait, but it's who I am.
There was another time in early spring - running through the prairie, watching the sun rise while wind bent the tall grass. Just me and the birds. It felt rewarding, in a very primal way. It's rare to be so fully present.
Continuing to escalate - I'm less sure about. I do like to chase a high score. But now one of my toenails is falling off. Is further striving the development of character? Triumph in the face of adversity? Or is it being too stubborn for my own good?
I don't think there's a simple answer. Biking hard reveals my limits too. As does lifting, yoga, etc. Puzzling through each constraint is very compelling. It's in my nature to escalate until I cannot. Then I lose interest. It's not the easiest trait, but it's who I am.
Re: V02 Max Challenge
Yes Jacob, I experience that exactly. I reached V02 max 46 last year with cycling but I have to do every day yoga or pilatus to keep supple all my joints. So a diversity of sports like walking, cycling, cc skiing, swimming and boat-rowing combined with kettle bell lifting/swinging gives me the maintenance you addressing at. But other than you, I do not dislike it. Because the rewards of incorporating such in my life are that I can do still almost all the things I did and liked a half century ago. Only a little slower.jacob wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2023 1:42 pmThis is what I dislike most about aging. This was not a concern at 18 or 28. Now that I'm 48, it's very much a use it or lose it proposition for each and every tendon. It's especially annoying since the cardio is "centralized". So one might developed excellent cardio with rowing ... only to be back to square one if switching to jumping rope. As such, the practical age-limiter for general performance may not be VO2max as much whether all the connective tissues are "maintained" at a strong level everywhere.
Re: V02 Max Challenge
To add to my post above: regular taxing/using your physical body is as necessary as breathing, getting the right nutrition and sleeping.
Re: V02 Max Challenge
In the spirit of sharing failures, it's been a week since my hardest run to date. Fallout:
1. My knee and ankle remain too tender to run. I think it's another 4-7 days until I have the option. I'm recovering with moderate amounts of the elliptical and rower. More yoga classes too.
2. I've learned it takes weeks for a damaged toe nail to fall off, then 12-18 months for it to grow back. If I'd had the nail bed drained ASAP, I might have avoided all of that.
3. The worst of this probably came from increased confidence going downhill. I started opening up lately, but really went for it because I wanted a high score. A good reminder about easing into change.
So what now?
1. In researching what went wrong, I got a possible foot issue - Morton's toe. I think there's a structural defect that explains my blistering problems and might cause gait issues as well. I could also be shorting myself on hip drive. Maybe that's why my run times are so slow relative to my rower v02 max. Oh, and sometimes people with this issue - they break their foot using barefoot shoes. So I've had some good luck here too.
2. This motivated me to schedule an appointment with a podiatrist. We'll talk about possible corrective exercise options. I'll also ask about strategically building up my shoe insoles. I use barefoot shoes because nothing else worked. Maybe she can help.
3. My enthusiasm for long, hard runs is dampened. "Choose both!" is no longer the near term answer.
4. I decided not to sign up for a 5k on 12/3. I may still try a PR around then, assuming recovery goes as expected. But it'll be with the primary goal of breaking 25 minutes. I think it's right there, and I'd like the score for keeps.
5. I'm no longer eyeing a near term half marathon distance. I thought I might casually jog it in training. The price feels too high. Maybe something from the podiatrist changes this.
6. I still think I can break a v02 max of 50 - on the rower test, this year. I'm working towards that. Probably in the next few weeks.
7. I'm also transitioning towards a lower volume of cardio. I think I'm past the point of diminishing returns. I want to rebuild some strength. Do a little more yoga. Figure out physical imbalances causing joint pain.
8. I eventually plan to make another run at endurance high scores. But probably not until Q3 2024. I'm not convinced lower volume will cause me to lose ground. But, jaw surgery almost definitely will.
Linear progress is more fun. I think that ride's over.
1. My knee and ankle remain too tender to run. I think it's another 4-7 days until I have the option. I'm recovering with moderate amounts of the elliptical and rower. More yoga classes too.
2. I've learned it takes weeks for a damaged toe nail to fall off, then 12-18 months for it to grow back. If I'd had the nail bed drained ASAP, I might have avoided all of that.
3. The worst of this probably came from increased confidence going downhill. I started opening up lately, but really went for it because I wanted a high score. A good reminder about easing into change.
So what now?
1. In researching what went wrong, I got a possible foot issue - Morton's toe. I think there's a structural defect that explains my blistering problems and might cause gait issues as well. I could also be shorting myself on hip drive. Maybe that's why my run times are so slow relative to my rower v02 max. Oh, and sometimes people with this issue - they break their foot using barefoot shoes. So I've had some good luck here too.
2. This motivated me to schedule an appointment with a podiatrist. We'll talk about possible corrective exercise options. I'll also ask about strategically building up my shoe insoles. I use barefoot shoes because nothing else worked. Maybe she can help.
3. My enthusiasm for long, hard runs is dampened. "Choose both!" is no longer the near term answer.
4. I decided not to sign up for a 5k on 12/3. I may still try a PR around then, assuming recovery goes as expected. But it'll be with the primary goal of breaking 25 minutes. I think it's right there, and I'd like the score for keeps.
5. I'm no longer eyeing a near term half marathon distance. I thought I might casually jog it in training. The price feels too high. Maybe something from the podiatrist changes this.
6. I still think I can break a v02 max of 50 - on the rower test, this year. I'm working towards that. Probably in the next few weeks.
7. I'm also transitioning towards a lower volume of cardio. I think I'm past the point of diminishing returns. I want to rebuild some strength. Do a little more yoga. Figure out physical imbalances causing joint pain.
8. I eventually plan to make another run at endurance high scores. But probably not until Q3 2024. I'm not convinced lower volume will cause me to lose ground. But, jaw surgery almost definitely will.
Linear progress is more fun. I think that ride's over.
Re: V02 Max Challenge
2000m Row - v02 max: 51.01
I exceeded my goal of 50.
I've started to enter the pain cave. Something tipped on the last couple PR runs. I picked a 500m split time and did everything possible to keep it. I'm not even sure trying this hard is a good idea.
It's been two weeks since I've run. My blisters are healed. The knee and ankles are mildly tender. My toenail is black but remains attached. I think it's possible to put together an early December 5k PR.
I am torn on making the effort. Sub 25 would be my final trophy. However, the podiatrist was not impressed with me. X-rays showed:
1. Mild bunions on both feet
2. Achilles tendonitis with slight bone spurs on both heels
3. A probably benign soft tumor in the heel of one foot
She kept palpitating my feet and ankles, asking "doesn't that hurt?". Not really, but I'd already been off running for a week. So I guess the images didn't look great. Or maybe she just wanted an ouch for insurance approvals.
She wants me in New Balance or Hoka shoes, wrote a custom orthotic script, and ordered an MRI for tumor foot.
She says the bunions are progressive. The best chance of delaying both arthritis and hammer toes is her recommendations. The barefoot shoes did not pass scrutiny, especially after she balled one up. Unsupportive.
She firmly believes I have structural deformities, that will not be resolved by corrective exercise.
I tried shopping her recommendations through a variety of online sources. The suggestion of permanent orthotics for bunions seems universal.
I pulled out my new balance sneakers. They immediately irritated my bunions, which is why I stopped wearing them. So we're gonna have words during the MRI follow-up. I will try getting my feet in Altra Lone Peaks, and maybe a Hoka Mach 5 or Bondi 8. I need a WIDE shoe.
I'm also trying to figure out if insurance covers any amount of custom orthotics. If I had confidence in the proposed solution, I'd happily pay $1000. But it runs contrary to everything that's worked best to date. So I'm having a hard time receiving the message.
I do acknowledge most top runners wear Hokas or Altras. Outside of health, this could be the long term path to an entirely new level of performance.
I might make the 5k PR attempt. I don't think running couple dozen more miles will dramatically change anything. However - all signs point to the necessity of an overall strategic shift.
A neighbor asked me earlier this week - "Scott, are you sick? You're so thin...". And I just bailed on checking my deadlift max, after a set of 185x5. Yes, in pounds! I can't even get my lifting belt tight.
I exceeded my goal of 50.
I've started to enter the pain cave. Something tipped on the last couple PR runs. I picked a 500m split time and did everything possible to keep it. I'm not even sure trying this hard is a good idea.
It's been two weeks since I've run. My blisters are healed. The knee and ankles are mildly tender. My toenail is black but remains attached. I think it's possible to put together an early December 5k PR.
I am torn on making the effort. Sub 25 would be my final trophy. However, the podiatrist was not impressed with me. X-rays showed:
1. Mild bunions on both feet
2. Achilles tendonitis with slight bone spurs on both heels
3. A probably benign soft tumor in the heel of one foot
She kept palpitating my feet and ankles, asking "doesn't that hurt?". Not really, but I'd already been off running for a week. So I guess the images didn't look great. Or maybe she just wanted an ouch for insurance approvals.
She wants me in New Balance or Hoka shoes, wrote a custom orthotic script, and ordered an MRI for tumor foot.
She says the bunions are progressive. The best chance of delaying both arthritis and hammer toes is her recommendations. The barefoot shoes did not pass scrutiny, especially after she balled one up. Unsupportive.
She firmly believes I have structural deformities, that will not be resolved by corrective exercise.
I tried shopping her recommendations through a variety of online sources. The suggestion of permanent orthotics for bunions seems universal.
I pulled out my new balance sneakers. They immediately irritated my bunions, which is why I stopped wearing them. So we're gonna have words during the MRI follow-up. I will try getting my feet in Altra Lone Peaks, and maybe a Hoka Mach 5 or Bondi 8. I need a WIDE shoe.
I'm also trying to figure out if insurance covers any amount of custom orthotics. If I had confidence in the proposed solution, I'd happily pay $1000. But it runs contrary to everything that's worked best to date. So I'm having a hard time receiving the message.
I do acknowledge most top runners wear Hokas or Altras. Outside of health, this could be the long term path to an entirely new level of performance.
I might make the 5k PR attempt. I don't think running couple dozen more miles will dramatically change anything. However - all signs point to the necessity of an overall strategic shift.
A neighbor asked me earlier this week - "Scott, are you sick? You're so thin...". And I just bailed on checking my deadlift max, after a set of 185x5. Yes, in pounds! I can't even get my lifting belt tight.
Re: V02 Max Challenge
I think you’ll like the Altras. I have wide feet as well and generally the first thing to go on my shoes are the edges of the toe box, due to not enough room. The same happens with the Altras, but they seem to last longer and are more comfortable. I’m sold on them after going through 4 pairs of them on the trail earlier this year. I wouldn’t expect any significant performance improvements though. I could see it if your current shoes don’t have knobs on the bottom and you have trouble getting traction on the trails. Otherwise, I don’t think they’ll make you any faster compared to similar shoes.
Re: V02 Max Challenge
Weird, I thought the corrective actions for progressive bunions were not to wear supportive shoes, but to use something with a very wide toe box and toe spacers, trying to progressively fix the three arches with isolated exercises and reposition the big toe separation and regain its usage as one of the main stabilizers of the transverse arch. Side question, can you even have a good medial longitudinal arch with bunions? It seems like it wouldn’t stabilize correctly.Scott 2 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 4:09 pm
She says the bunions are progressive. The best chance of delaying both arthritis and hammer toes is her recommendations. The barefoot shoes did not pass scrutiny, especially after she balled one up. Unsupportive.
She firmly believes I have structural deformities, that will not be resolved by corrective exercise.
I tried shopping her recommendations through a variety of online sources. The suggestion of permanent orthotics for bunions seems universal.
I wouldn’t be worried about the barefoot thing but I would try to keep zero heel drop if possible to keep the Achilles / etc from shortening over time.
Re: V02 Max Challenge
@theanimal - good to hear you like the Altras. My thoughts on performance come from looking at differences between me and fast runners.
Entirely theoretical - but maybe I could tolerate more training volume or better foot support would allow a more powerful gait. I do think there's something off with how I run.
@Slevin - Yes, that's what's worked best for me. Strengthen and mobilize the feet. However - the first metatarsal doesn't go back. The x-ray makes it easy to see the bones are in a poor position.
My first impulse was to dismiss the doctor's recommendations. But she has the degree, is a fellow of her professional organization, has 20 years of experience treating feet, cuts into feet regularly, and referred out for the orthotics. So reconsidering what I self taught feels reasonable.
Taken individually, I'm comfortable with rotating in these ideas:
1. Extra cushioning - take a break from impact forces when my knee feels tender. Sure.
2. Try a slight drop - take a break from the most extreme stretch when my Achilles is inflamed. Makes sense.
Use both to have periods of higher training volume, but keep the barefoot shoes for non impact activity? I could totally go there.
The orthotics though - they're rigid and permanent. The thought is to spread load and remove the stresses that are repositioning your first metatarsal. As well as to avoid bending the big toe joint improperly. I'm much less into that idea. Rigid and permanent screams future problems, to me. Shouldn't my feet bend and flex though the day?
She also wrote the script for a combination of the bunions and Achilles tendonitis. I don't like linking the two, because maybe I can solve the Achilles absent the orthotics.
And it's not clear how that stacks with changing my shoes. Feels like changing too many variables at once. Especially if foot support is built into a shoe.
Hence the need for further discussion. I've got a few weeks to try some shoes and consult the orthotics place. Then I'll agree upon strategy with the podiatrist.
Another big question is how we determine the strategy is working. There are now baseline X-rays of my feet, but I imagine bone movement measures in years, which is a terrible feedback loop. If it's pain based - IMO that demands changing one variable at a time.
Entirely theoretical - but maybe I could tolerate more training volume or better foot support would allow a more powerful gait. I do think there's something off with how I run.
@Slevin - Yes, that's what's worked best for me. Strengthen and mobilize the feet. However - the first metatarsal doesn't go back. The x-ray makes it easy to see the bones are in a poor position.
My first impulse was to dismiss the doctor's recommendations. But she has the degree, is a fellow of her professional organization, has 20 years of experience treating feet, cuts into feet regularly, and referred out for the orthotics. So reconsidering what I self taught feels reasonable.
Taken individually, I'm comfortable with rotating in these ideas:
1. Extra cushioning - take a break from impact forces when my knee feels tender. Sure.
2. Try a slight drop - take a break from the most extreme stretch when my Achilles is inflamed. Makes sense.
Use both to have periods of higher training volume, but keep the barefoot shoes for non impact activity? I could totally go there.
The orthotics though - they're rigid and permanent. The thought is to spread load and remove the stresses that are repositioning your first metatarsal. As well as to avoid bending the big toe joint improperly. I'm much less into that idea. Rigid and permanent screams future problems, to me. Shouldn't my feet bend and flex though the day?
She also wrote the script for a combination of the bunions and Achilles tendonitis. I don't like linking the two, because maybe I can solve the Achilles absent the orthotics.
And it's not clear how that stacks with changing my shoes. Feels like changing too many variables at once. Especially if foot support is built into a shoe.
Hence the need for further discussion. I've got a few weeks to try some shoes and consult the orthotics place. Then I'll agree upon strategy with the podiatrist.
Another big question is how we determine the strategy is working. There are now baseline X-rays of my feet, but I imagine bone movement measures in years, which is a terrible feedback loop. If it's pain based - IMO that demands changing one variable at a time.
Re: V02 Max Challenge
I read quit by Annie Duke this week. She talks about the endowment effect - people over value what they already have. When you're considering quitting something, she argues this tips even scales in favor of yes. If anything, by the time you've reached 50/50, the optimal quitting point has already past.
I think that's true for me and the 5k PR attempt. It's been almost 3 weeks since I ran my local forest preserve under 1:40. That's a better trophy than the 25 minute 5k. As is the 51 on my rower v02 max test.
My knee is almost pain free, the Achilles tendonitis lingers, but is subsiding. I'm back up to maintenance calories, so my strength should start rebuilding. I've found a good twice weekly yoga class. Being so small, that's coming back scary fast. I've also got the podiatrist recommendations to integrate.
While chasing the sub 25 minute 5k is doable, it's clinging to a peak that already passed. Derailing the new momentum doesn't make sense. The time to chase that high score comes after I've rebuilt, if I think substantially new running territory is available. Eking out 12 more seconds over 3 miles isn't the right carrot.
Re: V02 Max Challenge
okay okay, I'll get to it! I was holding off so as not to interrupt the discussion (as sometimes I get distracted) of foot health which I am keenly following, right now mostly complaint-free so from a contingency planning and monitoring stance, but it seems so important for all runners here and I was paying special attention to the shoe recommendations as I've been considering (stack-height) levelling-up at least part of the time, maybe even to altras as discussed. But if I can hearken even further back... well first--
I ran a marathon. From that experience, I wanted to follow up on @Scott 2's question of why pay a hundred bucks to run an organized race something you can time on your watch any day for free and with an answer I forgot: Serendipity. When I was young I swam competitively (fly/IM). I was not all that distinguished and competitive only in the tiny backwaters in which I swam--I know there are some pretty competent representatives of professional and amateur athletics in the forums here, but even at the lower level I was at, I learned there's something special about a race. Alex Hutchinson in his book, "Endure: Mind, Body, and the Curiously Elastic Limits of Human Performance," talks a good deal about, and was even motivated to write by, the mental effects on performance--and what better designed to elicit those than a race?.
I want to carve out some space or even a process to explicitly consider serendipity which is a vital (threadless) thread that now and then peeks up in the forums, usually couched in terms of social factors or in my case how I (didn't) save a latte a day to retire early, but I also acknowledge some serendipitous results could come from nothing but rumbling five axioms (or even four!) or the only good five ingredients on your shelf around in a bowl or maybe even nothing more than a blank page and a pen or a blank afternoon and a piano. (I will leave it to more perspicacious souls to collate preferred forms of serendipity by personality type). I imagine most models of serendipity favor jolts to your routine so @Scott 2's question of whether a race is worthwhile sounds a worthwhile candidate and what I'll aim for here.
I particularly appreciate the value of him posing it to the forum, in which you think he's just musing on whether to sign up for a race or not but in reality is empirically estimating the scope and blindnesses of his model. That is, I mean, somebody publicly decides on their model of what an artist is, and then somebody else thinks publicly no, that's not it, that's not it at all and frankly the last successful artist I met was an older man I chatted up at a deli counter, who was wearing a horrible oversized blousy pinnately-compound-patterned short sleeve shirt and khakis better befitting some Sundowner at Six Special next to a retirement community in Cocoa Beach than the downtown counter we shared where he was, no kidding, air-drumming along to I think it was Jimmy Buffett but that's not my schmaltz so not sure, however this fellow was about as fashionable as potato soup and as edgy as a ramekin of applesauce and imagine my curiosity when I found out this unabashed air-drummer was a paid composer, and not just a composer but a paid opera composer, and not just composing an opera but had funding and budget to produce an eight hour long operatic epic concerning nothing more than a some `60s-era sociologic narrative he'd dug up of a day in the life of an eight year old schoolboy and I immediately know he was a successful artist because: (a.) he could afford potato latkes and (b.) he actually thought a paying audience in Chicago, of all places, would sit through eight hours of his opera, watching a eight year old do whatever eight year olds do, only in opera libretto, the worst music ever invented. But at any rate my point: how's your model like those apples?
I'm just saying that I wish I would regularly display the intellectual humility and far-sighted wisdom to post these things and monitor the updates coming in. Call it a way to publish my known known and known unknowns, and where an amateur forumite might think the goal is then to fill in those known unknowns, of course the big number is in harvesting what the group knows and you don't know to bring your unknown knowns and unknowns into the light.
Like, take the V02 Max thread. One common conception I've seen more among non-exercisers is that exercise is hard work done for the health benefits, and so one might heterotelically waste time exercising to lengthen one's life or shed pounds tallied up against a carefully budgeted outlay of training time... And then you start reading the V02 Max thread and maybe come across where @Scott 2 casually-brilliantly linked exercise motivation profiles to the Bartle taxonomy. Look at the Bartle taxonomy, though and what jumps right out is that it is a catalog mostly of intrinsic motivators (not so surprising as unfortunately the common extrinsic effects of video gaming on social, physiological, and temperament are well understood. And then there's sleep: do you dream in black-and-white or in first-person shooter?)
But meanwhile keep reading the V02 max thread and you will be peppered with intrinsic satisfactions: from the joys of attaining set goals or extending your imagined limits, from the golden old-friend-feelings of reuniting with your athletic capabilities or watching them depart, to the fun of getting royally stomped, to trying new cross-training modalities, to the pleasures of running in a new season or a new town. I mean, look, you're on a forum where literally every member could tell you how to extrinsify your job for some (not-so-)far-off freedom-to/for/alongside payoff and I am telling you this thread alone has elite charting talent better than any wall street pod shop and ever notice nobody is bothering popping up graphs of years of longevity added to their lifestash or live/train-balance maximizations to optimize your spent training time for received existence time because they're all just having an innately good time on their rower. How's your model like that?
So it's a savvy diff splicing the Rumsfield matrix (known knowns, known unkowns, etc.) by a third dimension into an individual's view and the group or organizational view and looking at the links between. You'd expect such a splicing to be known to the creator of the matrix as well but if you go back to the original formulation it's a little unclear which--individual or organization--he even referred to; between the "reports", the "me" and the "we"s you can't quite tell initially who is the Knower here: is it the Department of Defense? The DoD Secretary? The community including the public representatives of the DoD and the press corps? The nation? Rumsfield, savvy organizational operator that he was, surely appreciated the different mechanisms (and capacities) of knowing within an individual and a group or organization-which is not simply the union or pooling of its members as surely some members of the DoD 'knew' there were WMDs as surely as some 'knew' there were not, and what, it like, cancels? No, of course not. You could make a study of the different ways in which reasoning unfurls in an individual's process versus that of an organization, and what an individual can say versus what an organization can, and where one or the other excels, but to just answer the matter at hand I assume Rumsfield in his construction of his matrix is assuming a so-called monoscient model which comes from the Latin wherein scient means "to know" and mono means "Donald Rumsfield."
Wrapping up then, if I can meta or do time-series on Cunningham's Law here, the best way to assess your model completeness is to post it on the internet and observe the rate of corrections. As that asymptotes, you are approaching the totality of the community's knowns. (on community unknowns, well, you're on your owns).
But that feeling when I've read the whole thread and decided ok, I understand it now--I'm counting the wrong thing, or put another way, maybe it's only Mt. Stupid if you're still panting. BUT, I recognize this is not the organizational epistemology thread. So let's do a race report.. Races can surpise you, eh? Embrace serendipity. How's that working out for me?
I ran a marathon. From that experience, I wanted to follow up on @Scott 2's question of why pay a hundred bucks to run an organized race something you can time on your watch any day for free and with an answer I forgot: Serendipity. When I was young I swam competitively (fly/IM). I was not all that distinguished and competitive only in the tiny backwaters in which I swam--I know there are some pretty competent representatives of professional and amateur athletics in the forums here, but even at the lower level I was at, I learned there's something special about a race. Alex Hutchinson in his book, "Endure: Mind, Body, and the Curiously Elastic Limits of Human Performance," talks a good deal about, and was even motivated to write by, the mental effects on performance--and what better designed to elicit those than a race?.
I want to carve out some space or even a process to explicitly consider serendipity which is a vital (threadless) thread that now and then peeks up in the forums, usually couched in terms of social factors or in my case how I (didn't) save a latte a day to retire early, but I also acknowledge some serendipitous results could come from nothing but rumbling five axioms (or even four!) or the only good five ingredients on your shelf around in a bowl or maybe even nothing more than a blank page and a pen or a blank afternoon and a piano. (I will leave it to more perspicacious souls to collate preferred forms of serendipity by personality type). I imagine most models of serendipity favor jolts to your routine so @Scott 2's question of whether a race is worthwhile sounds a worthwhile candidate and what I'll aim for here.
I particularly appreciate the value of him posing it to the forum, in which you think he's just musing on whether to sign up for a race or not but in reality is empirically estimating the scope and blindnesses of his model. That is, I mean, somebody publicly decides on their model of what an artist is, and then somebody else thinks publicly no, that's not it, that's not it at all and frankly the last successful artist I met was an older man I chatted up at a deli counter, who was wearing a horrible oversized blousy pinnately-compound-patterned short sleeve shirt and khakis better befitting some Sundowner at Six Special next to a retirement community in Cocoa Beach than the downtown counter we shared where he was, no kidding, air-drumming along to I think it was Jimmy Buffett but that's not my schmaltz so not sure, however this fellow was about as fashionable as potato soup and as edgy as a ramekin of applesauce and imagine my curiosity when I found out this unabashed air-drummer was a paid composer, and not just a composer but a paid opera composer, and not just composing an opera but had funding and budget to produce an eight hour long operatic epic concerning nothing more than a some `60s-era sociologic narrative he'd dug up of a day in the life of an eight year old schoolboy and I immediately know he was a successful artist because: (a.) he could afford potato latkes and (b.) he actually thought a paying audience in Chicago, of all places, would sit through eight hours of his opera, watching a eight year old do whatever eight year olds do, only in opera libretto, the worst music ever invented. But at any rate my point: how's your model like those apples?
I'm just saying that I wish I would regularly display the intellectual humility and far-sighted wisdom to post these things and monitor the updates coming in. Call it a way to publish my known known and known unknowns, and where an amateur forumite might think the goal is then to fill in those known unknowns, of course the big number is in harvesting what the group knows and you don't know to bring your unknown knowns and unknowns into the light.
Like, take the V02 Max thread. One common conception I've seen more among non-exercisers is that exercise is hard work done for the health benefits, and so one might heterotelically waste time exercising to lengthen one's life or shed pounds tallied up against a carefully budgeted outlay of training time... And then you start reading the V02 Max thread and maybe come across where @Scott 2 casually-brilliantly linked exercise motivation profiles to the Bartle taxonomy. Look at the Bartle taxonomy, though and what jumps right out is that it is a catalog mostly of intrinsic motivators (not so surprising as unfortunately the common extrinsic effects of video gaming on social, physiological, and temperament are well understood. And then there's sleep: do you dream in black-and-white or in first-person shooter?)
But meanwhile keep reading the V02 max thread and you will be peppered with intrinsic satisfactions: from the joys of attaining set goals or extending your imagined limits, from the golden old-friend-feelings of reuniting with your athletic capabilities or watching them depart, to the fun of getting royally stomped, to trying new cross-training modalities, to the pleasures of running in a new season or a new town. I mean, look, you're on a forum where literally every member could tell you how to extrinsify your job for some (not-so-)far-off freedom-to/for/alongside payoff and I am telling you this thread alone has elite charting talent better than any wall street pod shop and ever notice nobody is bothering popping up graphs of years of longevity added to their lifestash or live/train-balance maximizations to optimize your spent training time for received existence time because they're all just having an innately good time on their rower. How's your model like that?
So it's a savvy diff splicing the Rumsfield matrix (known knowns, known unkowns, etc.) by a third dimension into an individual's view and the group or organizational view and looking at the links between. You'd expect such a splicing to be known to the creator of the matrix as well but if you go back to the original formulation it's a little unclear which--individual or organization--he even referred to; between the "reports", the "me" and the "we"s you can't quite tell initially who is the Knower here: is it the Department of Defense? The DoD Secretary? The community including the public representatives of the DoD and the press corps? The nation? Rumsfield, savvy organizational operator that he was, surely appreciated the different mechanisms (and capacities) of knowing within an individual and a group or organization-which is not simply the union or pooling of its members as surely some members of the DoD 'knew' there were WMDs as surely as some 'knew' there were not, and what, it like, cancels? No, of course not. You could make a study of the different ways in which reasoning unfurls in an individual's process versus that of an organization, and what an individual can say versus what an organization can, and where one or the other excels, but to just answer the matter at hand I assume Rumsfield in his construction of his matrix is assuming a so-called monoscient model which comes from the Latin wherein scient means "to know" and mono means "Donald Rumsfield."
Wrapping up then, if I can meta or do time-series on Cunningham's Law here, the best way to assess your model completeness is to post it on the internet and observe the rate of corrections. As that asymptotes, you are approaching the totality of the community's knowns. (on community unknowns, well, you're on your owns).
But that feeling when I've read the whole thread and decided ok, I understand it now--I'm counting the wrong thing, or put another way, maybe it's only Mt. Stupid if you're still panting. BUT, I recognize this is not the organizational epistemology thread. So let's do a race report.. Races can surpise you, eh? Embrace serendipity. How's that working out for me?
Re: V02 Max Challenge
Race Report:
Weekly Mileage: 32mi
Long Run: 26.2mi
I should say this is a small regional race with the order of hundreds of participants. That matters. You can take I-95 or the Appalachian Trail from a little north of Manhattan to Portland, Maine, where on one you'll get to recognize the fellow travelers along your path and typically greet every one coming back around a loop and occasionally even bids to exchange high-fives (I accepted), whereas on the other the same behavior would probably get you a traffic citation, if not collision. I mean, a big race: the other participants are best case: potential pacers/motivators, and common case: well, they're traffic. A really big race, you might not even cross the start line until 70 minutes in. Which is just like trying to get on I-95, but anyway..
this meant after the race I met the five other runners in my little glug (as opposed to envy-age-class-checking them online in the results afterward), shook hands, heard where they were from, their running backgrounds, and even made tentative non-binding plans to rematch, same race, next year. One collapsed at the finish line but was beaming after. Another travels the world with running races her excuse. Surprisingly friendly, talkative people for a bunch that'll spend 2-3 hours running alone each weekend.
I biked to this race and with race prep made it to the line with only 7 seconds to go (this sounds worse than it was. if it had gotten tight I could've gotten there faster but didn't want to be zone 4'ing it cycling over.) Set out and soon found myself near the front of the pack with a nice couple ahead of me running about 10s faster than my goal pace. I figured I'd settle in behind them and warm up the first few miles.
After a few miles, I noticed they were now picking it up to 20s faster than my goal pace, sometimes more, but I was having a good run, watching the moon set over one horizon and sure enough, the sun coming up from the other, and ruminating on my own particular blend of characteristic attributes, habits, and drives that both got me here to run this pace this far and if maybe did they also preclude me having my best mate by my side to do it? I just mean I wasn't focused on my watch, instead letting my mind wander, zone out a bit almost like I'd do on a fun run or new city run, which this time didn't slow me down--I had pacers: pacers whom I instinctually never lagged more than about 30 seconds behind. If you are familiar with research on flocking or herding behavior in homo sapiens, well, that's a little what this felt like but I'd posit something stronger as in a "Don't Get Left Behind On the Ice Floe" impulse that can be pretty compelling put into in action.
Their pace was fluctuating with the terrain, some of these as fast as 7:25-7:30s which was too fast too early for me and by mile 15 I resolved if they kept it up, I'd drop back to my goal pace so I had something in the tank for the last six miles. However they slowed a bit and I'd feel better and they'd speed up just a little and I'd go with it, meaning I stuck close behind coming up to the last six for which I'd trained running fast. Went pretty well and the final three everybody hit it which came in at 7:20s, 7:10s, and then 6:50 minute mile for a close finish of all three of us.
Surprising me as much as anybody, it meant I got in with a total time of BQ+1min. I had been targeting BQ+10min. My pace was 3 seconds/mile slower than qualifying pace for Boston. Thanks to not watching my watch and two random people who happened to visit my local race. Serendipity. If I had gone out for a run on my own, I wouldn't have even tried it.
From an expectations management viewpoint I now have no plausible excuse not to qualify next year (eh, burn your ships) and meanwhile socially (with non-runners) have managed to come off as a bit of a laggard as everybody asks me now why I didn't run a minute faster. Why didn't Kelvin Kiptum run a minute faster, huh?
But, I'm happy with it. This is my third race. My first started me off at BQ+50m and am now at BQ+1m and I can't help but feel good about that trajectory. Thanks much to the encouragement of people on this thread which mattered, the traceable improvements they had on my training schedule, and as always to a sometimes overly strict interpretation of ERE1.0:7 "Go car free."
I'll now proceed with my Airing of the Admonishments for next go-round.
1. Sleep. I have never slept well in the preceding week of a race. (exogenous factors, mostly work this year. got 4/8/4 hours the three nights before but show must go on.)
2. Don't let work interfere with training (botched my peak weeks). Maybe look into this Early Retirement thing.
3. Master your pacing sans serendipitous couples. Or else find a race with suitably-grained pacing groups. But still master your pacing.
But with that, the plan is working. I got close enough to feel like I just about made it but the goal is the goal and the goal was to qualify for Boston. Not there yet but it's not over till the fat lady sings. See you in the base season!
Weekly Mileage: 32mi
Long Run: 26.2mi
I should say this is a small regional race with the order of hundreds of participants. That matters. You can take I-95 or the Appalachian Trail from a little north of Manhattan to Portland, Maine, where on one you'll get to recognize the fellow travelers along your path and typically greet every one coming back around a loop and occasionally even bids to exchange high-fives (I accepted), whereas on the other the same behavior would probably get you a traffic citation, if not collision. I mean, a big race: the other participants are best case: potential pacers/motivators, and common case: well, they're traffic. A really big race, you might not even cross the start line until 70 minutes in. Which is just like trying to get on I-95, but anyway..
this meant after the race I met the five other runners in my little glug (as opposed to envy-age-class-checking them online in the results afterward), shook hands, heard where they were from, their running backgrounds, and even made tentative non-binding plans to rematch, same race, next year. One collapsed at the finish line but was beaming after. Another travels the world with running races her excuse. Surprisingly friendly, talkative people for a bunch that'll spend 2-3 hours running alone each weekend.
I biked to this race and with race prep made it to the line with only 7 seconds to go (this sounds worse than it was. if it had gotten tight I could've gotten there faster but didn't want to be zone 4'ing it cycling over.) Set out and soon found myself near the front of the pack with a nice couple ahead of me running about 10s faster than my goal pace. I figured I'd settle in behind them and warm up the first few miles.
After a few miles, I noticed they were now picking it up to 20s faster than my goal pace, sometimes more, but I was having a good run, watching the moon set over one horizon and sure enough, the sun coming up from the other, and ruminating on my own particular blend of characteristic attributes, habits, and drives that both got me here to run this pace this far and if maybe did they also preclude me having my best mate by my side to do it? I just mean I wasn't focused on my watch, instead letting my mind wander, zone out a bit almost like I'd do on a fun run or new city run, which this time didn't slow me down--I had pacers: pacers whom I instinctually never lagged more than about 30 seconds behind. If you are familiar with research on flocking or herding behavior in homo sapiens, well, that's a little what this felt like but I'd posit something stronger as in a "Don't Get Left Behind On the Ice Floe" impulse that can be pretty compelling put into in action.
Their pace was fluctuating with the terrain, some of these as fast as 7:25-7:30s which was too fast too early for me and by mile 15 I resolved if they kept it up, I'd drop back to my goal pace so I had something in the tank for the last six miles. However they slowed a bit and I'd feel better and they'd speed up just a little and I'd go with it, meaning I stuck close behind coming up to the last six for which I'd trained running fast. Went pretty well and the final three everybody hit it which came in at 7:20s, 7:10s, and then 6:50 minute mile for a close finish of all three of us.
Surprising me as much as anybody, it meant I got in with a total time of BQ+1min. I had been targeting BQ+10min. My pace was 3 seconds/mile slower than qualifying pace for Boston. Thanks to not watching my watch and two random people who happened to visit my local race. Serendipity. If I had gone out for a run on my own, I wouldn't have even tried it.
From an expectations management viewpoint I now have no plausible excuse not to qualify next year (eh, burn your ships) and meanwhile socially (with non-runners) have managed to come off as a bit of a laggard as everybody asks me now why I didn't run a minute faster. Why didn't Kelvin Kiptum run a minute faster, huh?
But, I'm happy with it. This is my third race. My first started me off at BQ+50m and am now at BQ+1m and I can't help but feel good about that trajectory. Thanks much to the encouragement of people on this thread which mattered, the traceable improvements they had on my training schedule, and as always to a sometimes overly strict interpretation of ERE1.0:7 "Go car free."
I'll now proceed with my Airing of the Admonishments for next go-round.
1. Sleep. I have never slept well in the preceding week of a race. (exogenous factors, mostly work this year. got 4/8/4 hours the three nights before but show must go on.)
2. Don't let work interfere with training (botched my peak weeks). Maybe look into this Early Retirement thing.
3. Master your pacing sans serendipitous couples. Or else find a race with suitably-grained pacing groups. But still master your pacing.
But with that, the plan is working. I got close enough to feel like I just about made it but the goal is the goal and the goal was to qualify for Boston. Not there yet but it's not over till the fat lady sings. See you in the base season!
Re: V02 Max Challenge
@ebast congratulations on an all around good race! And impressive improvement over time. What went into your decision to bike to the race and would you do it again?
Re: V02 Max Challenge
@ebast - Serendipity indeed. That's a fantastic result, especially given the way you used biking to accumulate volume. It's easy to say "one more minute," but it seems unlikely you left that much in the tank. Based on expectations, your time is a year ahead of the training plan. That's a good argument in favor of racing. There's something primal about running with others.
Constraining the window for PR attempts is another solid argument, which you expressed above. I've experienced it first hand this year. Had I stopped with the September PR, I wouldn't have forced myself off the trail. It's encouraging to see you look towards base season, rather than making one more attempt this year.
I'm curious about a couple things:
1. With shoes - what has you considering the stack height increase vs. some amount of rise?
2. With the BQ so close, would you explore one of the carbon fiber plated super shoes? From what I've read, expectations are around 4% faster over the first 100 miles, until the plate wears down. That's 5-10 minutes over the course of a marathon. Is it worth a couple hundred bucks?
3. If you are invited to Boston, would you go? If so, are you considering the "merit" scoring, where they make the qualifier harder if too many people meet it?
I appreciate the update. It's good to see how people performing at a much higher level are training and recovering.
Constraining the window for PR attempts is another solid argument, which you expressed above. I've experienced it first hand this year. Had I stopped with the September PR, I wouldn't have forced myself off the trail. It's encouraging to see you look towards base season, rather than making one more attempt this year.
I'm curious about a couple things:
1. With shoes - what has you considering the stack height increase vs. some amount of rise?
2. With the BQ so close, would you explore one of the carbon fiber plated super shoes? From what I've read, expectations are around 4% faster over the first 100 miles, until the plate wears down. That's 5-10 minutes over the course of a marathon. Is it worth a couple hundred bucks?
3. If you are invited to Boston, would you go? If so, are you considering the "merit" scoring, where they make the qualifier harder if too many people meet it?
I appreciate the update. It's good to see how people performing at a much higher level are training and recovering.