V02 Max Challenge

[jacob]

I do think recovery from my recent surgery was far easier due to the higher v02 max. By the time I was back to 50% of pre-surgery capacity, activities of daily living were low effort.

That's also how I see it (see my previous post above). The higher one's max is, the more activities get included in the "low effort" group, and the bigger that group is, the more likely one is to partake in such an activity w/o considering it a "sacrifice" or a "feat". This goes for strength too.

Indeed in a more general sense, it goes for everything and all kinds of capitals whether physiological, mental, or ...

This in turn increases the "low effort" domain of one's WOG geometrically. As such the primary reason for high maxes is not to win some giant race but to make 90% of living much easier. One might say that [high max] has "fractal consequences" in that affects life and living at all scales.

[C40]

@7wb5 - there's nothin' wrong with a big butt.

[mountainFrugal]

Anyways, on this step test which does not require input of body weight, I got 41.1 = Excellent for woman of age 58.

Great! If you are feeling good then do some more walking or light jogging and see if you can get a better score with that test in a month. In the end we are only in competition with our previous selves.

[7Wannabe5]

there's nothin' wrong with a big butt.

True, unless you are competing in a pull-up contest and/or trying to qualify for an organ transplant vs some emaciated wrinkled old skinny-shanks slow jogger guy on the basis of your relative VO2 max/kg numbers. Hip fractures are huge risk for older women, so it's very helpful if you tend towards bouncing when you slip and fall. I suggested elsewhere that we might add a twerking contest to the round of forum challenges, but there seemed to be no interest.

Indeed in a more general sense, it goes for everything and all kinds of capitals whether physiological, mental, or ...

This in turn increases the "low effort" domain of one's WOG geometrically. As such the primary reason for high maxes is not to win some giant race but to make 90% of living much easier. One might say that [high max] has "fractal consequences" in that affects life and living at all scales.

I agree, but isn't it so boring to be stuck in Level Orange with "money" and "fitness" as the factors always being continually measured, maximized and/or maintained? I think of my multi-millionaire friend, his body being eaten up by cancer, still doing his daily calisthenics and checking up on the markets, like some member of a primitive culture making ritual sacrifices to his gods.

OTOH, now that my Crohn's disease is 80% under control, I am finding Excess Pudge to be one of my primary limiting factors to Doing-Whatever-I-Want-To-Do, and I am straight-forwardly addressing the problem, but as with many things, it has been my experience that the Great is the enemy of the Good in this realm. Much more "healthy" to simply whip myself into reasonable shape with reasonably enjoyable routine I can tolerate than to shoot for the Ideal. There are like 100 bajillion more interesting and enjoyable things I would rather spend my time on than an extra half-hour of high intensity exercise every day. IOW, for the true plate-spinning generalist, manic explorer, multi-multi-dimensional space is prefered over the multi-maxi-dimensional space preferred by the Serial Master.

agree with the distinction, but I'm not sure how it changes what one does? The 60 year old jogger can't turn back the clock by 40 years.

True, but based on my anecdotal experience with encountering affluent, grim, skinny old jogger guys as being on average the least likely to smile or say "Hello" if you pass them on a trail, they would be best served in expanding their mastery of lifestyle dimension C = Charm. What's the point of keeping all your junk in running order if you never actually make enjoyable use of it? Orgasms achieved per week would probably be a more accurate metric to measure overall functioning after age 50. Especially due to the fact that if you make a habit of achieving your orgasms with companion then there will be somebody there to administer CPR or call 911 in worst case outcome.

Great! If you are feeling good then do some more walking or light jogging and see if you can get a better score with that test in a month. In the end we are only in competition with our previous selves.

I am going to join the YMCA and start swimming as soon as I can release my frugal clench from the $50/month membership fee. I do enjoy hiking in nature, my previous routine which I maintained for around 12 years was to do that for one hour/day 6 days per week no matter the weather, but I detest jogging. Crohn's disease is still limiting my ability to hike in nature until/unless I get comfortable with the prospect of shitting in the woods in semi-public setting

I don't know how I got such a high score on the test. I am in terrible shape. I will try to be motivated by Martha Stewart on the cover of Sports Illustrated at 81, but she is so much tougher than me...

[7Wannabe5]

What you do at a party based on MBTI:
https://www.psychologyjunkie.com/heres- ... h-the-entp

ENTP:Gets in a debate with the ESTJ about politics, religion, and the organization of the snack table. Doesn’t care at all about how the snack table is actually organized.

IOW, apologies for my rant above, please carry on with your contest.

[jacob]

What you do at a party based on MBTI:
https://www.psychologyjunkie.com/heres- ... h-the-entp

If you or anyone else found that amusing, check out https://www.youtube.com/@FrankJames

[7Wannabe5]

@jacob:

Quite amusing. I think a few of my relatively much more extroverted, "smart for a jock" (ESTJ, ESTP, ENTJ) type partners might "recognize" me in the "Normal Girlfriend vs. INTP Girlfriend" bit, especially the juncture where it describes the highly theoretical future scenario in which INTP Girlfriend is likely to be the one to pick up the bill, only slightly edited towards "when my next permaculture project is completed and yielding 5000 standardized solar-potato units per kilogram-human."

[IlliniDave]

... I agree, but isn't it so boring to be stuck in Level Orange with "money" and "fitness" as the factors always being continually measured, maximized and/or maintained? ...

If someone asked me to name three things that would correlate to freedom, those would be two of them. I don't know anything about Level Orange, but I don't find such things boring at all with the caveat that I maximize to a loose cost function of sorts recognizing it all fits into a multidimensional landscape, rather than maxing out one or the other for the sake of maximizing.

[7Wannabe5]

If someone asked me to name three things that would correlate to freedom, those would be two of them. I don't know anything about Level Orange, but I don't find such things boring at all with the caveat that I maximize to a loose cost function of sorts recognizing it all fits into a multidimensional landscape, rather than maxing out one or the other for the sake of maximizing.

I agree that this is generally true, but past some point it is akin to buying too much insurance, at an ever increasing marginal price. Also, there is self-referentiality in the notion of jogging every day at 40, so that you can still be jogging every day at 70. If you enjoy jogging, great, go for it! But if you would really rather just be walking in nature for an hour or puttering around your garden for a few hours at 40 and 70, then why not do that? Of course, if you are still sitting at a desk 8 hours/day and driving 2 hours in a car/day at 60, then you won't even have the leisure to spend more time at moderate activity level, so your only option for staying in good enough shape to putter around your garden at 70 will be to work out on an elliptical for a half-hour during your lunch hour, or something like that.

I threw the "orgasms achieved per week" out there as an alternative metric because ED is almost certainly better associated with longevity in males than VO2 max, but also because it is a metric that might incorporate some other competencies/assets/skill-sets. But it's not all that interesting either as a stand-alone metric, and in order to not be towards dysfunctional, it would also likely have to be at least somewhat combined with one's score on the NYT "How Many Warm Relationships Do You Have?" quiz I recently took.

I guess I'm just suggesting that being in the 90th percentile for Tap Dancing, Entomology, and Tapestry Weaving (for example)might be more interesting than being in the 90th percentile for Net Worth, Fitness, and Grooming. So, the question is how much Net Worth, Fitness, and Grooming, do I really need in order to devote myself to the pursuit of Tap Dancing, Entomology, and Tapestry Weaving (for example)?

[mathiverse]

I think the idea is to jog at 40 so you can still putter around in your garden at 70+. Since you tend to lose VO2 max at some rate (I want to say 10% - 20%?) every decade after some age (50? 60?), maintaining your VO2 max or at least slowing the decline is required.

Of course, substitute jogging for some activity you prefer, but at a certain point if you never got to a better level of VO2 max than that which is required to garden, you will likely lose the ability to garden in your final 3 - 4 decades due to natural decline if you live into your 70s and 80s.

If you look at that graph on the prior page of posts, then if I guess that gardening requires a VO2 max of maybe 20, then it follows that if you are in the 5th percentile or below for VO2 max, then in your final decades you will be forced you to stop gardening. If you got to the 50th percentile, you can garden the rest of your life. How much jogging/[insert cardio here] does it take to get to the 50th percentile? Is that really such a high amount that you can't read, hike, develop your emotional intelligence, [insert quirky activity here] in your free time?

If you think gardening requires a higher VO2 max, then that's an even greater incentive to do some exercise to maintain your VO2 max at a high enough level through the inevitable decline of aging in your later years.

[7Wannabe5]

@mathiverse:

I think that model is too discontinuous. If you are puttering around in your garden 3 hours/day every day from age 40 to 70, then the challenge of the activity will grow greater with age, but you will be continually rendering yourself fit to the challenge. OTOH, if you mostly just couch-potato every day from 40 to 70, but challenge yourself to jog for a mile once a year on Memorial Day, your performance will surely decline.

OTOH, the odds of experiencing a health event that may interfere with your ability to continuous train at the level/activity you prefer will also increase with age. So, jogging guy might be more fit to become gardening guy than gardening guy will be fit to remain gardening guy after spending 6 months out of commission waiting for knee-replacement surgery, but jogging guy will probably just try to be jogging guy again and blow out his other knee.

[IlliniDave]

... Also, there is self-referentiality in the notion of jogging every day at 40, so that you can still be jogging every day at 70. ... I guess I'm just suggesting that being in the 90th percentile for Tap Dancing, Entomology, and Tapestry Weaving (for example)might be more interesting than being in the 90th percentile for Net Worth, Fitness, and Grooming. So, the question is how much Net Worth, Fitness, and Grooming, do I really need in order to devote myself to the pursuit of Tap Dancing, Entomology, and Tapestry Weaving (for example)?

There are some people who jog for jogging's sake, my dad was one, but maybe it's their Tap Dancing, Entomology, and Tapestry Weaving. For many of us in the case of strength (specifically, maintaining muscle mass at ages 60+) and VO2 max-style training, it's the correlation between accomplishment in those domains and healthspan that is the draw. Healthspan is very broad-based, meaning if it is increased, that increases the time one can do Tap Dancing, Entomology, and Tapestry Weaving. It's not confined to the domains in which it was earned. Those (maintaining muscle mass and cardiovascular fitness) are the only things where there's really no questioning the longevity/healthspan benefits (i.e., they have scientific backing). And it's not limited to physical activity. They are protective against basically all of the diseases of aging from heart disease to cancer to dementia.

I hate jogging too, so for my "cardio" I do rowing, which on a machine is probably more boring than running, but it translates quite well to something I love doing. Web of goals and all that. If I can do more of something I love better, and come out of it with reasonable expectation of fewer years of morbidity to bookend my life, it makes the lack of short-term gratification worth it.

[mountainFrugal]

I provide a few examples of people I have met and in some cases trained with in my town:

PK - female, 70s, still xc skis, teaches lessons, back country skis, mountain bike races, has a small business selling starts for locally adapted varieties of plants she has breed over the years. Takes care of her grand kids by taking them on hikes to forage for local edibles.

JB - 85, female. Just had knee replacement surgery this past winter. Already out on the trail hiking and biking to train for an ebike tour of the Dakotas and Missouri this year. Prior to covid, she went to Europe for three months every summer to bike tour. At the age of 55, adopted her infant grandson. When he was too large to carry backpacking, she bought a pack mule.

GS- 84, male. Cuts close to 100 cord of wood to sell per year. He does this by himself in the forest. Drys and splits it all by hand. Does not need the money at all. Does it to stay in shape for backcountry ski season. I have been out in gnarly conditions only to come across him and his dog getting after it.

LP - 63, female. Major training partner for ultra-running. Former pro tri-athlete, now runs ultras. I paced her for a 100K where she got 3rd place for women. Has completed more than 150 ultra runs during her career. Wisdom packaged in a fucking wild animal. Does art. Former teacher. Retired. Adopted a child when she was in her 40s. Etc. Has a nice garden.

T(?unsure of last name to provide initial)- 62, female. Former doctor. Quit to raise her children. Started competing in ultras. Also completed more than 150. Most recently completed Hard Rock 100 in 2022.

Keeping up a high level of fitness makes doing all other things very easy. Train for multiple hours on the weekend, then go make a meal and play recovery pickleball for a few hours, or take care of whatever else needs doing.

[jacob]

Maybe g-factor IQ makes for a relatable metaphor? A higher VO2max score makes physical tasks so much easier just like a higher g-factor makes intellectual tasks so much easier. It's easier to understand its value if you had it and lost it compared to never having enjoyed it at all? There is a similar decline in mental acuity (gfactormax), but the VO2max effect decline by disuse+age is larger and stronger.

[Scott 2]

Survivorship bias warrants consideration. The 60+ ultra marathoner could be like an 8 figure small business owner.


With that said - I originally planned to set a 5k race PR today. Last week, I decided to feel things out in training. My time matched the 5k from last Summer. Given the recent surgery, no complaints. A slight PR might have been feasible. However, I decided not to push it.

Instead I volunteered at a local 10k. My intent was to give back and meet people like MountainFrugal describes. Some highlights:


- A woman in her 60's, who started running marathons in her 40s and has completed over 50 since then.

- A man who runs ultras, has written articles for a trail running magazine, started his own trail running website and is headed to observe the Western States training camp.

- A former football player who took up running in 2020 and has already run his first marathon.

- My dentist, in play clothes!

- A number of runners in their 70's and a few in their 80's, still finishing 10k's


I think this re-framing of "normal" pays more dividends than eking out a few seconds of PR. I met very average looking people, who would land in Superior on the v02 max chart. Maybe for someone who tries intelligently, it's much less exceptional than the numbers suggest.

[mountainFrugal]

There is a similar decline in mental acuity (gfactormax), but the VO2max effect decline by disuse+age is larger and stronger.

Survivorship bias warrants consideration. The 60+ ultra marathoner could be like an 8 figure small business owner.

I agree with both of these. I provide the above examples as use it or loss it. You do not even get a lottery ticket for those relatively high level longevity/performances unless you keep it up.

@Scott 2 - Put in the miles and you will get there for a PR without having to push it too much.

You are the average of the five people that you hang out with. Hanging out with endurance athletes you will see that it is not magic, just smart training miles for a bulk of the fit folks. Elite is something different.

While I am not an elite mountain athlete by any means, I do hang out with that crowd and can occasionally keep up. I want to play the movement longevity lottery though rather than any single event/race/score. .

Either way volunteering for endurance events is nearly always a good time IMO.

[7Wannabe5]

Okay, I give up. You guys have convinced me. I will drop out of grad school and hire a personal trainer.

[IlliniDave]

...I think this re-framing of "normal" pays more dividends than eking out a few seconds of PR. I met very average looking people, who would land in Superior on the v02 max chart. Maybe for someone who tries intelligently, it's much less exceptional than the numbers suggest.

There are some hacks that at least in my case allowed me to go from essentially poor VO2 max to slightly above average over the course of a few months without a huge time commitment.

Of course, in the aggregate elite VO2 max provides the greatest resilience, significantly better than average VO2 max. But having average VO2 max provides benefits over poor VO2 max.

It's likely that your high level of VO2 max did have a positive influence on your recovery from surgery. I can't cite a source but both excellent VO2 max and decent muscle mass are believed to contribute to better recovery from a number of situations as well as being preventative.

In less than two weeks I'll be separated from my rower for 4 months, so I don't know what will happen with my modest gains. Of course I'll have lot of opportunity to substitute paddling for rowing, and the hiking opportunities there are more strenuous than what I have locally, so I'm hoping to at least tread water.

I don't know if someone like me can really reach an exceptional VO2 max (already getting long in the tooth and went most of my adult life without paying much attention to it), but I think I will benefit if I can continue to incrementally improve my "for my age" capacity for as long as possible. It's hard to separate all the contributors but I feel much better than I did back in January which positively affects a broad swath of my happy little retired life including things that one wouldn't associate with 'physical fitness' (e.g., dealing with the situation involving my dad, rejuvenation of my ability to improve with a guitar, even just going through the planning/prep to relocate for four months).

[Scott 2]

VO2 max to slightly above average over the course of a few months without a huge time commitment.

I don't know if someone like me can really reach an exceptional VO2 max

The time commitment is what makes reaching a higher score "easy". Outside of controlling my ego, the biggest challenge is managing friction - blisters, chafing.

That's where a lifting background served me poorly. Lifters are all about intensity based conditioning. The circuits and HIIT are really hard.

Accumulating minutes just below my aerobic threshold feels completely different. There is essentially zero suffering. Patient consistency is boring, but it almost seems unfair how well it works.

Most people walking around the 10k looked completely unexceptional. Some of them, you could have convinced me it's been 10+ years since they exercised. But glance at their wrist - there's the Garmin, throwing a standing heart rate in the 40's.


I wonder if the hideout gives opportunity to accumulate those easy minutes. Could be an interesting experiment - watch heart rate and see what sort of load you can get. Maybe your standard hiking and paddling is a little too easy, but you can get in zone with some focused effort?

Is there biking in that area? Could be another fun option, now that you're showing up so fit already.

[theanimal]

We are on the coast in the big city for the week. Just down the road from the house where we are staying is the Hilltop Ski Area. It has some short hills with lifts at the base of the Chugach range as well as 3 ski jumps. Alongside each of the jumps is a set of stairs and we like to hike up and down them all for multiple sets whenever we are in town. Mrs. Animal is doing some work this week so I'm playing Mr. Mom. I put baby animal on my back and we did the whole circuit 4 times in just over 45 min. It was all zone 2 training with the exception of the last set on the biggest set of stairs. It's just about 1400 ft total gain and equivalent loss. Mrs. Animal's 69 year old friend that we stay with works up to doing 10 full rounds each summer! We have a few more days here and I'm planning to go up once more with my daughter and possibly once without her for some tabata circuits.