V02 Max Challenge

[J_]

Our club has about 80 boats. From wherry’s to eights. You start to learn in a stable wherry or C4 with cox. The yearly fee I pay is 380€. Our club is directly situated to perfect and diverse rowing waters in all directions. You do not need
a boat of yourself, if qualification reached you can take every boat. You do not need transport, I cycle in 15 minutes to the club. Yes, use a trial to see if rowing suits you. You develop balancing going trough narrower and narrower boats, the skiff is the narrowest. Your oars are the balancing rods!

[Scott 2]

Your rowing club sounds incredible. The option local to me is unfortunately more limited. I think they have a couple dozen members and are storing the boats in shipping containers. A handful of wealthy people run it. I suspect it's mostly intended to set high school students up for crew in college.

[ebast]

I'm predominantly an achiever / explorer. I'm not looking to beat anyone. I don't much care if someone else sees my experience or a stranger cheers for me.

I agree with this for myself. I'm not looking to beat anyone (except my brother) and would prefer not being cheered for as well. Especially as the whole thing starts to seem like a costume party personal holodeck of what it feels like to be a successful athlete: many of those six hour marathoners jacob mentions do cross the finish line to cheering throngs with arms up like champions--not looking down at their watch with mild disdain (I do not mean to discount the personal challenges they have overcome nor that it is an achievement I would celebrate for certain runners with disabilities.) What is a race you always win?

That said, I have often asked myself why pay $100 to run a course I could run any other day of the year for free?

(amortized over the hours spent training, this is cheap entertainment; I spend more on shoes. never mind calories.)

If you are going to train for something for the personal fitness benefit, there are advantages to picking something communicable: many people reflexively view running a 10k as a desirable achievement and can quantify the challenge of it. They will ask you how it went and tell you they've always wanted to run one. Versus, say, biking 80 lbs of dead weight 10mi and back or walking 15mi in circles with 20lbs of pig iron in a rucksack which is just kind of odd. ["if you are going to train for something, there are advantages to picking something differentiating..."]

There are all the socialization benefits, the carnival of it, which don't really pertain to your situation. I find personal benefits in terms of having a specific, measurable, non-negotiably timely focal point for training. This often sounds like a self-discipline problem but it can also be a perfectionism problem. If I were going to time my own race, I would not hesitate to give myself a two week extension to amend my peak weeks lapse in miles to have a proper taper, and then on that day, if it happened to be rainy and slightly slippery on the track, maybe I would schedule a try again next month, and so on.

Sometimes talking retirement with others (which I almost always cast as 'shiftless unemployment') I've mentioned the challenge of not having externally-imposed deadlines. To this I often receive responses around no reason to get out of bed but I have learned the hard way it also means never receiving amnesty to be done and go back to sleep.

[Scott 2]

I have learned the hard way it also means never receiving amnesty to be done and go back to sleep.

I had not considered this aspect of dismissing races. It's a good angle and provides support for using them. I'm literally caught in that loop right now. Every week it feels like a new PR is available for the taking, if I push just a little harder.

[Scott 2]

Ran my sub-hour 10k today - 57:12. An 11 minute PR. Don't get many of these:



I'm at a loss to explain the heart rate curve. 159bpm average for almost an hour? Where did that come from???



My typical cardio session is 40 minutes at ~130bpm. I'm going to pay for this. Good proof I don't need a race.

Since I ran on my local forest trail, I lost 100 feet of elevation at mile 3, then had to get it back at mile 4. That was rough. It's only a 2% grade, but tiring over that distance. I don't know how this time translates to a level, paved course.

[delay]

My typical cardio session is 40 minutes at ~130bpm. I'm going to pay for this. Good proof I don't need a race.
know how this time translates to a level, paved course.

Congrats on your new PR!

Depending on your age I think 160bpm is not unusual. At age 40 your max is 220 - 40 = 180 and you can sustain 160 for an hour.

I would expect some decay over time, the graph is surprisingly straight!

[J_]

@Scott 2, Kilometers, miles?
What Vo2 max after your personel record?
It seems you are in top condition.
So perfect in bodyweight, nutrition, adequate sleep no stress at all. Is that right?
Congratulations.

[Scott 2]

@delay - when I started this thread, 160bpm was something I thought attainable only 5-10 minutes at a time. Before yesterday, I would have said 25 minutes max. It's strong evidence that when I'm doing a shorter effort, I have significantly more in the tank than I'm using.

@J_ Thanks, this run was 10km. The Garmin stills thinks my v02 max is 46. I get my best scores testing on the rower. I would not describe my lifestyle as perfect by any means. But, I am the fittest I've been in the past 20 years. I understand this is a peak, and I am enjoying it.



When I started this thread, I wondered if dramatically improving my v02 max would improve my productivity. I was told no, but I remained unconvinced. After going through the process - my productivity has not improved. If anything, I often end up so tired from training, that I am less productive in the rest of life. Funny.

[shaz]

@Scott 2 it seems to me that "productivity" is a cog-in-the-machine concept. You are no longer a cog so you can scoff at productivity.

Congratulations on the new PR.

[mountainFrugal]

Ran my sub-hour 10k today - 57:12. An 11 minute PR.

Hell yeah @Scott 2!

[ebast]

Weekly Mileage: 48mi
Long Run: 18mi

Quick last update: Happy to be back on track, making up for my two week lapse. The day after my long 23mi run last week I immediately logged 2.4 hrs on the bike making deliveries which felt reassuring at the time as a bit of a corrective or fallback to my missed mileage. Good news, right? Unfortunately doing that back-to-back turned out to be too much meaning the next morning I quite apparently wasn't recovered so had to postpone that day's run. All mostly worked out in the end, but this was a phenomenon not accounted for in my optimistic initial analysis: background aerobic demands can interfere with dedicated running schedules. (kinda obvious..)

I am writing this two weeks before the race and have decided to go dark for that period, as nobody needs to hear my internal monologues amidst a full-on taper tantrum. Also I think it's something I've heard boxers do before a bout, that is refrain from long posting on the ERE forums (ruins the legs). We'll see if I'm able to muster much more vim this way, but legs are all I've got; my only viable plan in a boxing match would be running away. I've decided I'll try to aim for BQ+10min this year which would be seven minutes faster and puts me at a pace of BQP+22s or so. At the end of my long runs I've been practicing running hard on tired legs so maybe I can even pick up a minute or two in the last 6 miles, but as nice as that sounds, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face.

I checked my notes from last year where I did record three admonitions for myself: 1. More pacing discipline. 2. More naps. 3. Less Halloween candy. I was reckoning with all kinds of sleep interruptions last year and I'm actually not sure how much better it will be this go round--I've recently found myself suffering mild cases of employment occasionally in the wrong time zone and that's been messing with my sleep schedule. But, the other two I think I'm on track for. Then for the race I'll go with US record holder Ryan Hall's advice: "Run the first 20 miles with your head, and run the last 6.2 with your heart." At some point maybe use those hammies you did 400 hill sprints for.

See you on the other side,

[Scott 2]

I've decided I'll try to aim for BQ+10min this year which would be seven minutes faster and puts me at a pace of BQP+22s or so.

Looking forward to your results.

I was surprised to learn the annual qualifying time is a moving target, based on the number of entries they get. For 2024, runners had to beat posted qualifier times by 5:29!

https://www.baa.org/races/boston-marathon/qualify

[mountainFrugal]

See you on the other side,

I am not sure if you will login or read this before your race, but GET IT!

[Scott 2]

My attempts at 5k plateau busting are moving along. Hard to say if they'll be successful. Gap analysis showed three obvious options:

1. Run more. Mileage and frequency. The least feasible for me, due to joint issues. Long term, points at a form issue to troubleshoot.

2. Be lighter. Moving a 10% smaller body should be 10% easier. I've pulled this lever and am 8% smaller than September's 5k. However, I'm also depleted and weaker. So I haven't seen any speed improvements. I've started tapering food back up and am hoping the pay off shows at maintenance calories. I also don't want to be any smaller. Internet says a 20 bmi is optimal!

3. Try harder. Go deeper into the pain cave. This lever seems to be working, but I'm not sure if it is worth it.

I forced a 10 second 5k PR on Friday. It was uncomfortable during and followed by me doing nothing on Saturday:



Then Monday I shaved a little over 5 minutes off my 9.5 mile run around the forest preserve:



I tried hard enough, that post run my entire digestive system revolted. Not just a little nausea, but deep physical cramps for 1-2 hours. Exercise induced gastroparesis, perhaps?


We're approaching the point where near term progress is beyond the price I'm willing to pay. I'll be satisfied to see a sub 25 minute 5k and break 50 on the rower v02 test. I'm almost there.

[shaz]

@Scott 2 is a 4th option to train smarter? Some examples of this would be to optimize rest and recovery, nutrition, training mix. I don't know a lot about running -specific training, but in cycling, you can often improve by doing more intervals and less volume for a time. Are you following a periodized training program? If so, have you tried other periodization designs? Etc.

[Scott 2]

Yes, that's a fair point and an important longer term consideration. My monthly running mileage is quite low:

Nov to date - 16
Oct - 36
Sept - 22
Aug - 58
July - 9
Jun - 30
May - 30

Most of my cardio comes from other modalities - elliptical, rower, bike. I'm essentially doing as much zone 2 as I can mentally tolerate, then trying it out on the trail. Every time I dig into smart running - it seems like until one accumulates at least 7h a week of zone 2, anything clever is a mental indulgence. I typically hit 3-4h total cardio a week. It's competing with 1-2h of yoga, and 4-6h of weights/mobility.

When I ramp things up (speed or distance), my right ankle gets cranky. If I ignore that, it travels up into the knee. If I ignore that, the knee takes my ability to run for several weeks. Hence the especially low miles in July and Sept.

I think the effective long term play, is sorting how to run more/harder without joint pain. Which then opens my training options. I thought being lighter might open the window further. Nope. My next investment in that direction, is strengthening hip internal rotation and adduction. My right leg is prone to turning out, which could contribute to the knee and ankle issues.

But I see that as longer term. Corrective exercise takes months. I was hoping to knock a couple minutes off my 5k between late September and early December. That is looking less likely. Which is a shame, because I love to escalate. Maybe it all comes together anyways.


The other longer term consideration - what's enough? I found this site to compare run times against race result data:

https://runrepeat.com/how-do-you-masure ... calculator

A 25 minute 5k is the top 10% of my age group. The concept 2 v02 max test puts me in the highest category for my age group. Breaking 50 would max the age group below mine. We're past health considerations.

I know more is feasible. I'm slower than 1/3 of 10k finishers in my age group. But why? What am I trying to prove, and to who? Part me thinks there's wisdom in setting a maintenance level, and then focusing my energy elsewhere until I'm over next year's jaw surgery.

[shaz]

@Scott 2 the joint issues might take a long time to fix or might be a quick fix if you correctly identify the problem. Mobility/range of motion/biomechanics can sometimes have a surprisingly quick fix. Or it might be something that will take ages. If you have the time and money you could go to a physical therapist who specializes in working with athletes and have them do an assessment and recommend exercises. I typically only need 1 to 2 sessions to walk away with a good idea of what I can do on my own to fix a problem. They can provide insights that you might never come to on your own (ex. So my shoulder hurts because my collarbone is insufficiently mobile? I didn't know collarbones had a range of motion!)

Have you tried doing intervals on your bike?

[Scott 2]

The bike was irritating the same knee. While trying to squeeze out a near term 5k PR, it's been set aside.

If I don't push my limits, I can do plenty without setting things off. But that's not what I've been choosing. I take it easy with zone 2 until my joints feel ready, then harvest a prize.

The PT is a good idea. Depending where my self serve efforts go, and what timeline I get for the jaw, it could become an option.

As I've learned to use my insurance - it's the energy to receive medical care that is a constraint. I suspect approval to see a PT depends on diagnosis from a doctor. Which probably means an X-ray, to get preauth for an MRI. Then finding a "good" in network PT. And of course, weeks to months of scheduling lag, on top of finally doing the 4-6 weeks of sessions. The out of pocket would probably only be a few hundred bucks, but it's a lot overall.

Maybe I could side step that and go straight to a PT with my PPO. I don't know. It's not affordable without insurance approval.


I can go hard on the rowing machine. When my joints are cranky, that's where I sneak in some zone 5 work. Typically with a 2000m row.

Do you think intervals would add to that? I'm not sure if I'd find mental toughness for them. It's chasing a high score that produced some of the recent heart rate curves.

I need to get my thinking brain out of it. I tell myself - if you quit, you'll have to repeat everything you've already done. This PR has never been closer. Loss aversion gets me through.

I remember doing "sprints" with my sled, back when this all started. I was convinced they were limit efforts. I'd go inside and lay on the floor after. Then the HR monitor showed I was barely breaking 160bpm. But doing more felt impossible.

It could be interesting to see what I can get out of a sled now. I sold mine for bike money, but could use one at the gym.

[J_]

But why? What am I trying to prove, and to who? Part me thinks there's wisdom in setting a maintenance level, and then focusing my energy elsewhere until I'm over next year's jaw surgery.

It looks that you are wrecking your body. Systematically. Go on and your jaw will be a minor problem.

[Scott 2]

@J - I agree the current approach is not sustainable long term. I'm trying some new things. They aren't all working. I am walking the line between hurt and injured. But that's how I uncover limits and learn where to focus my energy. Stress the system, find the constraint, relieve the constraint.

I do make minor tweaks with each hard attempt. Some of them work. With Monday's run, I focused on keeping the right hip turned in, for instance. Recovery seems better than when I did the same a few weeks ago.

12/3 is the date I'm peaking for. I'll have a taper week going into that, so this cycle has about 2.5 weeks of hard training left.