V02 Max Challenge

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Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

I do warm up. Ahead of the first 1/2 mile interval, I've done a 1/4 mile walk, followed by 3/4 a mile at my recovery pace. Depending on feel, I might roll my feet and lightly stretch my calves before heading out.

Got a good picture of the bike problem. I fear going downhill, especially heading into turns on a limestone trail. Makes the bike very inefficient for accumulating volume. At least half the time is wasted:

Image

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

Keep it up @scott2!

Practice looking 15-20 feet ahead of you on the descents. On loose substrate around turns you want to be looking to where you want to go and not down at the wheel. The point further in front of you is a relatively more stable point of reference and you will be less likely to over correct. Depending on the tires (assuming they are not racing slicks on you road bike) you may be able to "practice" on loose substrate by riding into sand volley ball courts. This works better as practice if you have a mixed substrate tire. You will get the hang of looking ahead and not over correcting. Hill intervals on a bike are a good thing even if you are spending time recovering on the descent.

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PR'd my hard training run by 7:30 today. Shaved off 4 minutes on the way up and 3:30 on the way down. The two dropoffs in heart rate are stopping to fill water bottles at a spring and having to wait for a large group of MTBs to move by (not interested in inhaling MTB dust if I am not also ripping down).

mooretrees
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mooretrees »

Those are FAST miles! Dang. Way to go.

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

Yeah, that's an impressive session. Great you are setting new PRs, at such a high level of training.


The tires are 700x38, with an all season tread. I think they are reasonable for well maintained trails:

https://www.nashbar.com/schwalbe-marath ... 1?v=724476

Exploring my limits on lower stakes terrain is a good idea. I'll think more about where I am looking.

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

Scored a small PR of 41 on the 2000m row this evening. With my attention spread between the 5k and bike, I haven't taken a hard row in about a month. So this result was welcome. My peak strength is definitely down, but I rowed faster.

Interesting that I couldn't push my heart rate past 171bpm. Algorithms to predict max heart rate put me between 180 and 185. Hard to say if it's a physiological limit, or I am still bad at suffering. I don't think I had more available today. Maybe after my 5k, I'll take a fully rested, caffeinated attempt.

Concept 2 updated their app. It's pretty cool:

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

Those treads should be okay on sand (or similar) to practice. Nice effort! One interesting thing about endurance sports is the cardio base translates between them so it is pretty hard to become bored with it. Tired of running, go for a ride. TIred of riding in the summer heat, go for a swim. Etc. Keeping it fresh will keep the interest high.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

mountainFrugal wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:54 pm
A recent example is Kilian Jornet with a VO2 max of ~85-90: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%ADli ... et_Burgada . He won a ton of ski-mountaineering races when younger and then transitioned to ultra-marathons winning and setting a course records for Hardrock 100 Miler (Average elevation 11000ft, with 33,000+ feet gain and 33,000+ feet of loss over the race) and more recently completing fastest known ascent times for various peaks without supplemental oxygen.
Killian just smashed the Hardrock 100 course record over the weekend. 21:36:24 (second place D'Haene only 15 minutes behind!)
The women's record was also smashed by Courtney Dauwalter: 26:44:36 (note this time STILL beats the previous overall course record)
Context: https://hardrock100.com/hardrock-about.php

One of our local running crew members ran and finished well under the cutoff (an amazing accomplishment in itself). We are stoked for her. :)

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

That puts the world record at a 13 minute mile pace. I don't think I can comprehend the difficulty added by terrain and elevation. Is this something you would be capable of? Do you have a guess at time, if so? I have a crude sense of the capacity gap between us.

Looking at the course description:
Lightning
Several runners in past years have had direct contact with lightning and there have been several more near misses. If caught in lightning, head to lower terrain as fast as you can. If you cannot, find a low point or shelter away from conductors (poles, trees).

If your hair begins to stand on end and/or your skin starts to tingle, a lightning strike is imminent. Assume the lightning position to wait out the storm:

If you are with a group of runners, spread out by at least 50’ *Very important*
Put your feet together
Crouch slightly
Minimize contact with the ground and other conductors (stay on the balls of your feet)
Cover your ears
Touch your elbows to your knees to give current a path to flow other than through your torso

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

At my current training level I am near certain that I would not even finish. Not that VO2 max is irrelevant, but it basically matters a lot less than these other factors for runners around my ability. I brought this back up to show that V02max is not the only thing that needs to be optimized. For the elite of the elite that are winning these races VO2max still matters. UTMB is another hard ass race in Europe with a similar elevation profile (33000+ of gain/loss over 106 miles), but it is at lower overall elevation. Participants in both are winning both. At the elite level the average elevation of Hard Rock is adding hours to the times. That compounds for non-elite runners. I could likely hike the Hard Rock course profile over 3-4 days (with sleep) if I put in another month or so of dedicated high elevation training, but it would still be hard. There is no way I could do it in under 48 hours (cutoff). I bring this up because in these longer distance hard races it becomes much more about hard "on your feet training" (long days out, 8-12 hours on most weekend days), racing experience, next level of mental fortitude, and fatigued decision making in the backcountry. This year's results are not posted yet, but take a look at last years: https://www.opensplittime.org/events/ha ... 021/spread . You might notice that there are no participants under the age of 30 (not impossible, just less likely). Basically you need to have years of base, time to train and racing experience to even qualify. To qualify to get your name in a lottery you have to have completed other hard ass 100 milers: https://hardrock100.com/hardrock-qualify.php
Qualifications For The Hardrock Hundred
The Hardrock Hundred is a "post-graduate" run. For safety reasons, not as an attempt at elitism, we cannot accept novice runners. The challenges faced during the HRH are much more than the exertion and fatigue expected from running 100 miles, and require the ability to navigate the course with uncertain conditions that may include:

High Elevation
Long, steep climbs
Extended distance and time between aid stations
Severe weather, including heat, cold, rain, hail, and lightning
Water and snow crossings
Exposure to potential for falls
This could be an ambitious future project, but it requires years of racing to even qualify. Despite all of my backcountry experience and running experience I would still classify myself as a novice under these guidelines.

theanimal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by theanimal »

@mF- Based on your training and numbers, I believe you could finish within the 48 hr cutoff time. The aid stations and trail make it a lot easier than if you were to travel exclusively in the backcountry off trail. Note that by easier I still mean you'd be under heavy physical and mental duress and still finishing with very swollen feet, lost toe nails and heavy fatigue/soreness. I've always been curious how these folks would fare in (more or less) our version of this race up here, The Alaska Mountain Wilderness Classic. Longer course (typically 150-180 mi), no trails, no aid stations, no outside support and no caches.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Mo ... ss_Classic * It is a backcountry event rather than solely hiking/running though so most people will also use packrafts for river travel and/or occasionally mountaineering equipment if travelling across glaciers. The route and location of the event changes every 3 years in areas throughout the state so as not to give anyone an advantage. A successful course is where less than 50% of people finish, which usually means finishers numbering in the single digits each year. I finished the course in 2016, hiking the whole ~120 mi (100% off trail in the mountains) in 53 hrs (4 hrs sleep), with 65 of that being in the first 24 hrs. This was with a whole lot less training than what you have been doing.

*Also, plenty of Youtube videos out there for those who are curious.

ETA: Also, @mF- I have no interest in doing the official race but if you were interested I'd do the Hard Rock course with you under the same parameters (shoot for under 48 hrs) on our own, self supported.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

Thank you for believing in my ability @theanimal, but the course elevation would be the sticking point for the cutoff time, not the distance or gain/loss alone. https://www.therunnerstrip.com/wp-conte ... rofile.jpg

I know you are trying to recruit for the Alaska Classic. Maybe I will be there in a year or two. :)

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

theanimal wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:34 am
ETA: Also, @mF- I have no interest in doing the official race but if you were interested I'd do the Hard Rock course with you under the same parameters (shoot for under 48 hrs) on our own, self supported.
Now we are talkin'!

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

Thanks. That's extreme. It's hard to appreciate how exceptional world class performance is.


In the land of mere mortals, I managed a break through on the bike problem. It's now a good source for v02 max training:

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This is my 3rd time on the same ten mile loop. I tried to get more comfortable with leaning in turns, as well as using uphills to bleed off speed from downhills. I also practiced using the pedal to mount and dismount, which sounds small, but increased my confidence. I didn't intend to go so hard on hills at the end, but judging effort remains difficult.

The timing is perfect, because I've had to pull back from trail work on foot. Doing the intervals, almost two weeks ago, upset my ankle. Despite warnings here, crossing the line from stimulus to hurt was astonishingly easy. 5 days later, I pushed through a low intensity 4 miles, then found myself limping everywhere. So low impact recovery is in order, and the bike is a welcome tool.

I decided to throw money at my weak ankles, picking up a tibia dorsi machine. The movement is far better than my prior efforts, using a plate or band. The goal is a return to zone 2 on foot, next Monday. Intervals are off the table. While fun, the risk of injury isn't worth it. I'll substitute the bike on days my ankles aren't feeling it.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

Scott 2 wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:08 pm
Despite warnings here, crossing the line from stimulus to hurt was astonishingly easy. 5 days later, I pushed through a low intensity 4 miles, then found myself limping everywhere. So low impact recovery is in order, and the bike is a welcome tool.
Yeah. A large part will be learning to listen to your body (like you are doing) to know when and when not to increase/decrease loads. Your bike HR numbers are looking good for cardio training. Your plan to alternate between activities and stick to the intervals on the low impact bike is a smart one. Long game. :)

Slevin
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Slevin »

Scott 2 wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:08 pm
I decided to throw money at my weak ankles, picking up a tibia dorsi machine. The movement is far better than my prior efforts, using a plate or band.
Its like 30 mins and not much money to just make a tib bar out of PVC: https://www.austinfitmagazine.com/diy-tib-bar/, and it will load far past your capacity to train them.

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

I opted for the Titan plate loadable machine. At $190 delivered, it was a bit of an indulgence. I like the strength curve and ease of use. The design Titan copied does a nice job of keeping even load through the full range of motion.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

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Took almost a minute off my short/steep hill climb time (36:47 compared to 37:35 at the end of May). Sub 36 minutes is now well within reach! I did a warm-up before starting like last time, but ended up waiting around for 10 minutes for the last participate to show up at the trail head. My body cooled down enough that I spiked my heart rate too much in the first 5 minutes (circled in blue). I spent the next 5 or so minutes oscillating between zone 4/5 instead of upper zone 3/4. This hurt my overall time I think... should have gone out a little slower AND peaked my warm-up to coincide with start times. If you compare this effort to my other post up-thread on the previous page my heart rate reaches z3/4 threshold much more quickly and stays there. This is what you want for a cardio effort test. Spiking heart rate early has the additional downside that there is much more of a mental game because the quitting voice is loud: "Well you just spiked your heart rate and your arms are tingling from Lactic acid build-up... no way you are going to beat your time, might as well give up now and slow down." I know the tricks though. Green is the first really technical section so I slowed it down enough and power hiked over the boulders to recover just enough into low zone 3, then back after it. Once again... leisure pace on the way down taking photos of scenery and various wildflowers.

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

Strong progress!

I learned from Monday's effort, that I can try hard enough on the bike, to hurt myself. I irritated the sacroiliac joint on both sides, probably shifting it out of position. The right side popped back into place yesterday. I am still working on the left. Fortunately this week is a planned deload. It was a great time to try something new and absorb the mistake.

Based on how the pain presents, I think the culprit was either grinding out hills in the seat, or leaning way forward to go faster on the flats. My gas tank could support the work and my muscles had the strength. So the repeated hip extension found my joint weakness.

Next time, I'm going to play around with standing up on the pedals during hard hills. I'll also take it easy on leaning forward. The price is too high.

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

Two weeks off my feet was enough to recover the hurt ankle. I did a slow 3.5 miles on Monday. Today I did a timed 3 miles. Learning my lesson, I picked an achievable starting pace - 12 minutes per mile, or a 6 minute half mile split:

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My intent was not to exceed, but I'm inexperienced at pacing. A half mile is my shortest measurable distance. This landed around a 11:30 pace or 34:43 total. Everything feels good. Assuming the next day or two is fine, I'll try 11:00 next week. I don't think I can judge a finer increment. I have two more weeks of training, then a rest week, then the 5k.


My sacrum is still recovering from the aggressive bike ride. I've been able to train around it, but the discomfort heavily bled into daily life. Lots of couch time, trouble bending over, etc. So I'm experiencing why v02 max is not the end all metric. Everything in balance.

Accordingly, yesterday I tried subbing an hour yoga video for planned cardio. That found accumulated lateral instability and hip tightness. I've been doing self-directed work, but clearly have blind spots. Until my joints catch up, this will be a more frequently used option. My strength is also waning, which presents considerations for post 5k training.

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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by jacob »

After almost a year of abject laziness, I started up daily exercising again. I'm tagging a 3 mile run on the back-end of an Insanity Max30 workout for extra fat-burning oomph (starting out already wasted is very effective in that regard; not sure exactly why). Speed (in 85F) is about 8:15/mile. Using the 1% rule above, this actually corresponds well to my 5k speed when I was 18yo and 30 pounds lighter.

This is the first time I've run outside since 2011. Much better than a treadmill!

One of these days, I'll try to do a fresh start to get some better numbers.

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